I attended a 2 stake fireside last night put on by both stakes. The couple that spoke was an older couple called the "Givens." He was introduced as a modern day Hugh Nibly.They have written a lot of books and do firesides around the world on Questioning and Doubts. We were allowed to write questions and they answered them at the end of the presentation. I will address these questions in separate posts.

Some observations. This couple is well educated. Well known by BYU and the brethren. Their lastest books are The God Who Weeps and Crucible of Doubts.So lets keep in mind they are writers and sellers of books. He considers himself an LDS theologian.

His basic theory about the gospel and doubts can be summed up by this statement he made."If you can find anything against or wrong about the doctrine, then you can question JS or the brethren." Quote by BY. In other words it does not matter what the brethren do in real life as long as you can't find anything wrong with the doctrine.

You have to ask the right questions. If you don't then God may not be able to answer your questions.

His wife says she believes in everything but has a testimony of Jesus Christ. She knows Jesus Christ exists. The rest is belief.Neither one said the Church was true. (more later on this in answer to one of the questions). Neither said TSM was a prophet. So it is interesting what is "not said."

They were brought to this city to talk to the temple workers. Interesting. They must be highly influencial in the Church.

Stake center 3/4 full. Mostly older people. Few younger people. Only 10 people submitted questions.

So I will address question in later posts.

That would be Terryl and Fiona Givens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terryl_Givens

http://mormonstories.org/fiona-and-terryl-givens-and-the-god-who-weeps/

yes

more rescue missions by people that the 15 can claim aren't authorized to speak on behalf of the church.

win/win for them.

if it keeps members active: win.

if they fail to answer deep questions; well, they're not revelators anyway, so what can anybody expect? win.

looking forward to the rest of your review!

That must've been frustrating - listening to brainwashed Mormons trying to convince other Mormons to keep on believing the indoctrination!

Listening to the Given's is a painful experience. They redefine key doctrines like the global flood, age of the earth, Adam and Eve, the garden of eden, etc. They reinterpret the book of Mormon, pearl of great price and essentially dismiss more than 175 years of doctrine and teaching by the modern "prophets". They are intolerable and represent everything thing that I find wrong with the modern Church.

They are dishonest and essentially sale a LDS Church that doesn't exist and never has existed.

Just my thoughts!

I've listened to the Givenses speak several times. In my opinion, they preach a "feel good, smorgasbord Mormonism" that lets you pick and choose what you like. Think and question what you want, but just stay in the church because it's "beautiful," as Fiona would say.

The Givenses are salesman for the church. And the LDS church that they are selling doesn't exist. The real LDS church doesn't allow its members to take what they like and leave the rest. Recent conference talks have said as much. It keeps members in line with threats of excommunication and reminders of eternal consequences. It's an organization that requires its members to toe the line and obey.

Surely, the Givenses know better. I see them as pretty disingenuous.

Ditto. They know what the corporate church and extreme leaders are doing. They are writing books and making money off of the Mormon religion.

Did anyone ask about the 2nd annointing?

I thought the modern-day Hugh Nibley was...Hugh Nibley. The guy's only been dead 10 years; is that ancient history now?

If Givens is "a modern day Hugh Nibley", it would make him the second most dishonest defender of the faith. Nibley, of course, being the first.

Nibley lied, misquoted, and totally misrepresented the sources he used attempting to prove the church true thru parallels to the old world. Other than a few non-thinking deluded individuals, no one takes him seriously anymore - and for good reason. Even the unholy fifteen lost faith in him when he was unable to save the Book of Abraham. Before his death, Nibley admitted that the Joseph Smith Papyri have no connection to the Book of Abraham. At least here good old Hugh was honest.

BTW In attempting to rebut Fawn Brodie, Nibley stated twice that the Mormon Church has never changed its doctrine. He also said that "parallels" prove nothing, and yet spent his life developing them. A bigger phony would be hard to find.

"His basic theory about the gospel and doubts can be summed up by this statement he made."If you can find anything against or wrong about the doctrine, then you can question JS or the brethren." Quote by BY."

That looks like an excellent opportunity to bring up Bruce R. McConkie's admission that Brigham Young's Adam-God teachings were false doctrine.

What they taught last night would get you a court. You will find out about this as I address the other questions.They had a BYU History Professor there last night to introduce Bro Givens. What I heard was sure different. It's like BYU is one Church and then we have the other Church for members.

They seem to be saying it's important to stay in the Church. It has not been explained to you properly. We will do that with you. Then you will understand. The brethren know what we know. Do not worry. Ask proper questions and wait for answers. Doubting is not good. It's just that you have not the Lord the right questions. That is why you do not have the answer.WE have asked the right questions so we are okay.

Try getting your head around that concept if you are learned and educated.

And all in that sing-songy baby voice babble. . .That couple gets away with murder in their attempt to put a very fine polish on the turd that is mormonism.

SEcular Priest Wrote:
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> They seem to be saying it's important to stay in the Church.

Why, so individuals will continue to buy their misleading and untrue books?

TSCC does infinitely more harm than good and remaining a Mormon serves no useful purpose other than to support their web of lies.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2015 01:44PM by Templar.

Well, since ya can't swing a dead cat without finding something against the doctrine . . . question away, then, kiddos. ?

How helpful it is to have things cleared up like that. !

A person needs a strong cup of tea and a nice long sit-down after reading/hearing some of this "help."

The attitude of Brother and Sister Givens: "If the church is not true, then you need to rationalize, change meanings of words, and twist logic. If you do these things enough, then you can make the church true again, because after all, the only thing that really matters is having the church be true."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2015 09:57PM by Heretic 2.

"God may not be able to answer your questions."

Doesn't this suggest that God is an idiot?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2015 04:59AM by messygoop.

Yes. The mormon god is inept and idiotic.

I love it when people speak for God.

Is this happening church wide?? Are they going around to all of the morg's stakes doing these special firesides!???

yes

They said they do 180 presentations a year world wide.

People used to get excommunicated for the things I heard at the fireside. Why not these people? For me it was a very "shocking experience" to hear what I heard from these people.

I asked the person beside me if she was going to submit a question. She said no but she had lots of questions but did not want to create a problem. She asked me what my question was. (See question 4 todays post)

After the meeting was over, I asked her if she was leaving a better person than when she came? She said this guy was a great speaker and in a way told me my question was a screwed up one. What a bitch!!!

The Givens are very big in apologetics now. If I remember correctly, he was the major church voice in the PBS documentary "The Mormons" a few years ago.

My cousin adores them and is openly liberal about reinterpreting his church views. It causes him no trouble that I can see.

Did they tell you specifically what the right questions are? The wrong ones?

More important, did they give you any answers?

See my other posts from yesterday. I gave answers to questions 1 and 2. Today I am doing questions 3 and 4.

It's rather interesting that their new approach is to attempt to convince members to remain using verbal persuasion. What is clear is that they are no longer able to do so in writing since point by point rebuttals will appear on the internet shortly after their erroneous and misleading postings.

TSCC web of lies has finally caught up with them and they can no longer lie their way out. All they have left is hollow bullshit meaningless answers to honest questions asked in sincerity. Many leave afterward with the thought "is this the best they can do?"

Well, actually it is!

Oh?
do you know any competent ones?

Not personally, no.

I would love to see members incorporate their apologetic nonsense into SM talks, and see how well that goes over.