I've heard talk that many exmos become atheists. As for myself, I can vouch for this. Having never been indoctrinated with traditional Christianity, it's relatively easy to realize that all religion is myth. I feel it is important to eventually rid the world of the curse of religion.

https://youtu.be/fDaRfdwTFVc?t=728

I no longer believe either, but I thought what would a world without religion really be like. I think at this point in human history, we need religion sadly enough. Religion drives people to do things they wouldn't do otherwise such as feed the hungry. It also prevents people from doing things such as stealing.

One might argue that there have been countless wars started and many lives lost in the name of god, I still wonder if the carnage would be worse if people didn't have religion.

I think its a necessary evil (if there is such a thing). Maybe 500 years from now, people will have figured out how to be decent citizens without the need of religion and churches.

That's my two cents at least.

If any of that were true, prisons would be filled with atheists. They are not.

Religion does not make better citizens. It never did. It says it does, but that is the lie religion pushes to try to scare people into indoctrinating their children.

Other Than Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Religion does not make better citizens. It never
> did. It says it does, but that is the lie religion
> pushes to try to scare people into indoctrinating
> their children.

Amen.

I guess Im looking at it as if everyone woke up tomorrow and religion was suddenly gone somehow.

If the band-aid is pulled off slowly, then I do believe people would be better than they are now.

Other Than Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If any of that were true, prisons would be filled
> with atheists. They are not.
>
> Religion does not make better citizens. It never
> did. It says it does, but that is the lie religion
> pushes to try to scare people into indoctrinating
> their children.


Thank you..... the idea that humans need a fictious religion to

make them be good is crazy lunacy. Religion is the most evil

and violent ideas that man has ever come up with.

Religion is not the evil. Evil ideas developed independently of religion which people have (mis)used religion to promote.

People have been hurt and/or killed in the name of all sorts of things - patriotism/nationalism, ethnic supremacy, and politics to name a few - independently of religion. Many so-called "religious" conflicts are actually politically motivated.

If religion did not exist then nothing bad would change - in that those who cause conflict, death, destruction, and harm would still find reasons to do it, only non-religious ones. But all the good that religion has inspired and been used for would cease to exist.

Religion is a license to act outside the laws of decency if one chooses . . .and many do. Empathy comes from within, does not need to be taught, and religion has done its best to destroy it by making adherence to their rules more important than simply caring about others unconditionally.

A true religion would dovetail with what atheists know by instinct and don't need to be taught:

Love one another. Religion adds conditions to this. Atheism does not.

It is not a license to do that. It is misinterpreted as such by some - many, actually. But if your faith does not give you permission to do that, then you simply do not have that permission. (Not that there aren't those who legitimately believe that such a license exists. There are. But many simply do not believe in that. And in fact there are those who, quite the contrary, believe that believers are held to HIGHER standards of decency than non-believers of that faith. Whether they actually FOLLOW those standards is up to them, but they are supposed to do so.)

And yes, there are additions. Because love one another is a very important thing to do (Jesus Christ includes it as part of the Great Commandment, one of two most important things to do), but it is certainly not the only thing we should do right.

And for that matter, for atheists who live morally, love one another is not the only thing that THEY do, too. It is PART of what they aim to do right, but not the only thing.

Religion teaches us we are born defective and destined to become vile sinners without strapping on the moral compass provided by the religion. Unfortunately, that moral compass comes contaminated with all sorts of unChristlike malignancies.

Religion blocks believers from discovering and developing their own, personal, intrinsic sense of morality and ethics.

TBMs actually believe that apostates will careen out of control and crash into the ditch of wanton debauchery without the Gospel to thwart their 'natural man' internal enemy of God.

My late exmo brother's children got to witness their Dad as the most sane, loving, supportive and decent human being in their lives. (I just cried after writing that sentence.) Their TBM mother married and divorced a half a dozen TBM losers in the meantime.

Exactly what I was getting at. Very well stated, thank you.

Other Than Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If any of that were true, prisons would be filled
> with atheists. They are not.
>
> Religion does not make better citizens. It never
> did. It says it does, but that is the lie religion
> pushes to try to scare people into indoctrinating
> their children.

I am not convinced that those who claim to be religious while incarcerated are necessarily that religious. Our society rewards those who are religious and the court system looks favorably on those who are religious and are participating in religion as a part of rehabilitating themselves. In other words, being religious in prison strikes me as more of a racket and a bid for leniency than of being truly religious. Those in the prison population were potentially not the fully vested believers doing things like teaching Sunday School, and in many cases, not even in church on a somewhat regular basis.

An obviousism but people in prison are generally in prison because of dishonesty and general anti-social propensities. From a general character perspective and based on behavior patterns that landed them in prison, their actions and claims are suspect. Even people that are generally law abiding (no one obeys every law...e.g. two mph over in a 55) are subject to social desirability bias when responding to questions. In other words, people try to make themselves look better than they actually are when asked questions and responding to surveys. This is arguably more of a problem when someone is in a facility with the locks on the wrong side of the door. If they want out, they play society's games.

I made the same arguments that you are making for years but I am not so sure anymore. I used to point to the Scandinavian and Low Countries as examples of secularism and upstanding, responsible living. However, there are some potentially confounding factors that might be influencing those behaviors such as higher levels of education, stable economies, and the overarching culture that has existed and is transmitted from parent to child.

What someone actually believes and how that influences their behavior, either globally or in any given situation, is a potentially complex and difficult to measure set of relationships. The relationship between behavior and belief undoubtedly varies radically from person-to-person based on personality and environment.

There are sufficient examples of those from all types of belief systems, including unbelief, living upstanding lives and others in complete debauchery and crime to leave open numerous questions about the influence and necessity of religion in any given person’s life. It is highly probable that some people do need god to be good and there are undoubtedly others who would be more moral/ethical without the influence of religion. Additionally, that may change for any one person based on life circumstances.

Lumping all religions together is problematic too. There are vast chasms between many fundamentalist creeds and more liberal belief systems be they based on Christianity, Eastern religions, etc. Even within a given religion there can be significant differences between congregations/parishes/etc and the differences within each congregation can be substantial also.

zulu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am not convinced that those who claim to be
> religious while incarcerated are necessarily that
> religious. Our society rewards those who are
> religious and the court system looks favorably on
> those who are religious and are participating in
> religion as a part of rehabilitating themselves.
> In other words, being religious in prison strikes
> me as more of a racket and a bid for leniency than
> of being truly religious. Those in the prison
> population were potentially not the fully vested
> believers doing things like teaching Sunday
> School, and in many cases, not even in church on a
> somewhat regular basis.

The studies that show prison populations by religion (or lack of it) are based on *intake* information and/or family history supplied by the family. They're not surveys taken when a prisoner might be coming up for parole.
Also, the claim that "the court system looks favorably on those who are religious" has no basis in fact. There have, in fact, been several suits to *prevent* courts or parole boards from using religious practice or adherence as a factor in deciding parole, and courts have long been barred from using religion as a factor in deciding sentencing.


> I made the same arguments that you are making for
> years but I am not so sure anymore. I used to
> point to the Scandinavian and Low Countries as
> examples of secularism and upstanding, responsible
> living. However, there are some potentially
> confounding factors that might be influencing
> those behaviors such as higher levels of
> education, stable economies, and the overarching
> culture that has existed and is transmitted from
> parent to child.

There might be. However, some of those factors also explain (and support) the information on the religious beliefs of convicted criminals; for example, the more education one has, the more likely one is to not be religious -- and the converse (the less education one has, the more likely one is to be religious) is also the case. The prison population is also largely under-educated...that group in the general population is far more religious than the well-educated, do that same group in prison being very religious is a match for the data.

>
> What someone actually believes and how that
> influences their behavior, either globally or in
> any given situation, is a potentially complex and
> difficult to measure set of relationships. The
> relationship between behavior and belief
> undoubtedly varies radically from person-to-person
> based on personality and environment.

I don't know about "undoubtedly," but you have a point. That point doesn't diminish the statement above: being religious doesn't make you a better person. Where "better" is less likely to commit a crime, more likely to help neighbors, more likely to value and pursue education, less likely to lie or cheat, and pretty much any other measure you care to use for "better" (other than church attendance).

> Lumping all religions together is problematic too.
> There are vast chasms between many fundamentalist
> creeds and more liberal belief systems be they
> based on Christianity, Eastern religions, etc.

Of course there are. There are also "vast" similarities -- including basing beliefs on superstition and supposed ancient documents instead of evidence -- "faith." As the OP's title says, it was about "talking people out of faith." All religions rely on "faith." The degree and kind of "faith" may vary, the reliance on it doesn't.

I sought a group who had no dogma, yet wanted to do good and be of value. The closest thing I could find to my ideal in my area is the Unitarian-Universalists. They don't care what you believe, and try to do good. It's still a little woo-woo.. Some of them are spiritual, whatever that means. Still, it's the best fit I can find so far in this area.

I love the idea of UU but they can really run the gambit. I've seen groups that are practically non-denom Christians and others that are raging atheists and quite hateful to those who are different. You have to really feel out the vibe...

as an atheist I've considered UU but I really like The Church of Tea & Pancakes with my Family on sunday mornings ;)

greenAngel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> as an atheist I've considered UU but I really like
> The Church of Tea & Pancakes with my Family on
> sunday mornings ;)

Me too, except it's coffee and pancakes :)

I belong to a group that has no dogma, yet wants to (and does) good and be of value.
It's my family. Me, my wife, my kids.
Sometimes we get together with other families who have no dogma, and try to do good things and be of value.
It's fun.
And you can sleep in Sunday mornings.

Have you heard of The Sunday Assembly? They are a so-called 'atheist Church' that is purely secular, but meant to focus on the positive of life rather than on anti-theism.

They actually had a split in New York City, because some members of the group really did want to be 'raging atheists'/raging anti-theists and have a 'celebration of atheism' as the Sunday Assembly call it. Those members later broke off and formed their own group (leading to many news media reports questioning the viability of an 'atheist church' and pointing out that they can be just as prone to sectarianism as a religious church).

The Sunday Assembly claim that they want to be an inclusive space for also those who don't necessarily not believe in God (such as agnostics, deists, or even theists/people of faith) to feel comfortable. That's not what the latter group wanted to do (it's now a sort of anti-theist/anti-religion music festival known as the Godless Revival, and has a rather bad name among those who wanted to keep things peaceful with everyone).

Disclaimer: I'm not one of them, I am not an atheistic or agnostic or other secular person (as evidenced by my faith in my screen name), I have no affiliation with them, and I do not attend their meetings. So I don't know how well they accomplish the goal. But given the split I'm inclined to believe that it's possible they try to keep that goal (not alienating theists even though their community is purely secular) reasonably well. It's also quite possible that their groups are run differently everywhere and vary from chapter to chapter.

Lol!

I've heard of them.
Have no interest whatsoever.
My "joining" days ended with mormonism. I don't want to or need to be part of some big group to feel important, validated, or useful. I enjoy doing things on a personal, private level. :)

If people want to talk about religion with me, I'll tell them I'm an atheist. If they want to know why, and they always do, I'll tell them. Otherwise I think it's an exercise in futility. I think we're incredibly hard wired to believe.

I think I'd go slow on this one.

Next time you're headed to the hospital or read a story in the news about an injured person taken to the hospital, look for how many health facilities are named "Saint SomethingOrOther." The Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, and Episcopalians all sponsor hospitals. In some areas of the country, your wish to eliminate all religion will leave huge populations with virtually no health care options at all.

Also, if you have an opportunity to talk to a homeless person, battered wife, or drug addict, ask them how their lives would change if no religious person or organization existed to help them. Hint: Salvation Army serves millions of free meals to these folks every year. They also provide free housing, job training, and financial assistance.

Also, just check a few stats. Kids graduate from Catholic High Schools at a higher rate than virtually any other education system. On average, Catholic School grads earn hundreds of thousands more over over their lifetimes than their peers in other systems. They graduate from college at a higher rate as well. The poorer and more at-risk a student is, the greater the relative achievement gains in Catholic schools. etc. etc.

Also, a 2010 Harvard study showed that cohesive communities like those found in religions tend to promote better behavior, more community involvement, vote more regularly, donate more time and more money to causes. Atheist groups can show similar traits, but there are few cohesive atheist groups out there that are created to promote public welfare. That arena is dominated by the religious.

Atheists tend to be a very narrow demographic. It's dominated by affluent white people. That's part of the reason there are so few atheists in prison. Affluent white people are severely underrepresented in the prison population and crime stats overall.

Religious people often team up to create organizations dedicated to helping the less fortunate and needy. Atheists seem to agree on very little, but tend to team up to argue that all religion is evil.

A couple links regarding the above:

"Fellow Atheists: Quit Bragging About Our Prison Underrepresentation"
http://skepchick.org/2014/06/atheists-prison/

https://ace.nd.edu/catholic-school-advantage/catholic-school-advantage-fact-sheet



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2015 11:47PM by Tall Man, Short Hair.

Tall Man, Short Hair Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think I'd go slow on this one.
>
> Next time you're headed to the hospital or read a
> story in the news about an injured person taken to
> the hospital, look for how many health facilities
> are named "Saint SomethingOrOther." In some areas
> of the country, your wish to eliminate all
> religion will leave huge populations with
> virtually no health care options at all.

Sure, because no non-religious people ever open hospitals.
Oh, wait, yes they do. Never mind then.

> Also, if you have an opportunity to talk to a
> homeless person, battered wife, or drug addict,
> ask them how their lives would change if no
> religious person or organization existed to help
> them. Hint: Salvation Army serves millions of
> free meals to these folks every year. The also
> provide free housing, job training, and financial
> assistance.

Yes, because there are no non-religious people doing those things. Oh, wait -- yes there are. I volunteer at a non-religious food charity. I volunteer teaching people classes to get their GEDs, to help them get jobs and skills. I donate to non-religious organizations that provide financial assistance and job training. Never mind then.

> Also, just check a few stats. Kids graduate from
> Catholic High Schools at a higher rate than
> virtually any other education system.

Being private institutions, Catholic schools can and do kick out kids that are struggling behaviorally or academically, and dump them back on the public school system. I'm not impressed.

> On average,
> Catholic School grads earn hundreds of thousands
> more over over their lifetimes than their peers in
> other systems.

Hmm, couldn't find anything to back that up.


> Atheists tend to be a very narrow demographic.
> It's dominated by affluent white people. That's
> part of the reason there are so few atheists in
> prison. Affluent white people are severely
> underrepresented in the prison population and
> crime stats overall.

Yes, sadly, both prisons and religions are largely filled with the under-educated, poor, and superstitious. Interesting, isn't it, how you just sung the praises of religion when it comes to education and helping the poor, but ignore that our prisons are full of the poor and religious, who've had no actual help from religion at all?

Not a one of the things you mentioned *require* religion. Humans can (and do) accomplish all the "good" things you mention without having to pretend a magical man in the sky is going to do magic tricks for them to make their lives better, or send them to an imagined "hell" if they're bad (which clearly doesn't keep the poor and ignorant and religious from committing crimes).

Edit: Nevermind. I'm weary of you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2015 01:01AM by Tall Man, Short Hair.

you read my mind ificouldhietokolob, this +1000

+ 1000

The idea that "religion does some good, and if religion disappeared no good would be done" is patently absurd.
I give no credence whatsoever to the idea that billions of people currently being decent human beings would suddenly become nothing but selfish bastards if they lost their religion. Hundreds of atheists I know who were good people while believers, having lost their religion, are still good people and still do good.
TMSH's appeals in that regard are fear tactics, and unfounded ones.

any good that religion does is ultimately paid for by taxpayers.

Many humans crave religion in their lives. It's inborn from cave days. Those who have mapped human brains have identified the part of the brain for religious experience. This area is large in some brain and tiny in others. We'd have to carve it out of everyone's brain if we wanted to rid them of religious fervor.