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Now chatting with Sadie
S
hi
10:52 AM

C
hi
10:52 AM

X
Hi, I'm a new Member of he church and I just had a few questions I hoped you could answer for me, since the missionaries who taught me didn't cover this in their discussions.
10:52 AM

S
We can definitely try! :)
10:52 AM

X
#1. I see a lot of times in the Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham and the Book of Moses, that God cursed people with black skin for being wicked and evil. Do you believe God really cursed people with Black skin like it says in Mormon scriptures?
10:53 AM
Am I supposed to believe in a God who curses people with black skin for being wicked?
#2. Isn't that racist?
10:55 AM
#3. If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, why didn't he turn Osama Bin Laden, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao as black as coal?
10:57 AM

S
We get this question quiet often. The color was not the curse. The cruse was that they would be separated from God.
10:57 AM

X
that's not what the scriptures say, 2Nephi 5:21, "And the Lord had caused he cursing to come upon them, yea even a sore cursing because of their iniqueiy. For behold they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto the flint; wherefore, as they were white and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."
11:01 AM
That's racist.
And that's only the tip of the iceberg. There is no other religion that has scriptures that demonize black skin, like Mormon scriptures, is there?
Alma 3:6 "And the skins of the Lamanites were dark according to the mark which was upon their fathers, which WAS A CURSE UPON THEM, because of their transgressions...."
11:03 AM
That's racist!!!

S
Let me ask you this. Do you believe the church is true?
11:04 AM

C
still here?
11:11 AM

X
Yes. I'm sill here. Why do you lie about what the scriptures say?
11:14 AM

S
Do you believe the church is true?
11:17 AM

C
If you believe the church is true, all these things won't matter xavier!
11:24 AM

X
Huh? Persistent racism doesn't matter? It matters to me what my kids are indoctrinated to believe.
11:25 AM
I don't want my children being indoctrinated to believe black skin is evil, like it says in Mormon scriptures. If you don't believe God curses people with black skin, then the Mormon scriptures are full of that lie.
11:26 AM

C
But do you believe the church is true yourself?
11:26 AM

X
I asked you first, do you believe God curses people with black skin for being evil?
11:27 AM
Like it says in Mormon scriptures?

C
The core of the question is that if you truly believe that the church is true, you will know yourself that is this church a racist church or not. You will come to know that what it matters is really about you yourself believing the church is true.
11:30 AM
Like what we said we do not believe God curses people with black skin but the curse is truly to separate them from God.
11:31 AM

X
So the scriptures are lying?
11:32 AM
You can't have it both ways, either the scriptures are true, or they're lying. The scriptures say God cursed people with black skin for being wicked. If you don't believe that, then you must not believe Mormon scriptures.
11:33 AM
I don't believe God curses wicked people with black skin or He would have cursed Hitler with black skin. I don't believe in a God who's different today than he was yesterday, so therefore I guess I don't believe in the God of Mormonism.
11:35 AM
And I don't want to subject my kids to being indoctrinated with the 19th C. racist myths that remain in Mormon scriptures to this day. Nobody told me about that. Now I know.

C
We truly are not here to argue...
11:36 AM

S
Which is what you seem to be doing
11:36 AM
Sorry we are not perfect
and we do not have all the answers
We sort of in a way feel as if you are attacking us....
All we like to ask you to do is to ask your

X
I'm just trying to understand the racims in the scriptures, you don't seem to be doing anything but denying what the scriptures say. That's lying by ommission.
11:37 AM

S
bishop/missionaries and pray and fast about it
We hope that you are able to find your own answers... We have found ours and hope that you are able to have a good night! :)
11:37 AM

The chat session has ended

Well, no, they don't...

But you get to pretend they just disappear.
Until somebody points out they're still there.

How the hell does anybody get, "The curse was that they were separated from God" when it says right there, numerous times "wherefore, as they were white and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."

God made their skin black so that they would not be enticing to the righteous people. When I was Mormon there was no denying that was completely racist and not only that, proveably false.
If God punished people for being evil by turning their skin dark, then why did he quit doing that? If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, why didn't he turn Hitler or Stalin as black as coal?
The only real answer is that it's either clearly a naive, 19th Century racist attitude that got mistaken for 'the Word of God' or it's the most perfect book on the planet.
Missionaries take the latter position and defend it no matter what anybody else says about it.
So once you take that position, then it is just a matter of lying about what it really says in their scriptures. It specifically and clearly says God cursed people with black skin so that none of the good people would like them.
They're no asshamed of that racist bullshit either.
Actually they're quite proud.
I had this whole discussion with a pair of Missionaries recennty. their response was, 'well, at least you're not black." As if that matters?
If it's racist it should offend good people, no matter what color their skin is.
That so many Mormons are cool with a racist, misognyist, white supremecist world view, is what's so wrong about the whole ideology and theology.

No. Actually, your brilliant conversation pointed out what's truly wrong with Mormonism in its current iteration.

Your question was about a specific teaching in the scriptures: Does God curse evil people with black skin like it says here and here and here. [The context, racisim is bad].

The answer wasn't, at bottom, about the meaning of scripture. It was a challenge: do you, personally, believe "the church is true?" The expected answer for a member is, yes. Therefore, because racisim is bad--today--the church cannot be racist; consequently, the scripture means whatever I want to make it up to mean consistent with the church can't be bad--whatever is bad today.

You don't even need the word, scripture, for this. The BoM could say nothing but, "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy," over and over, because the only question is: are you loyal? If you are loyal, the scripture says good things no matter what it says. This is the mafia. This is a total dead end for an organization. You simply can't propagate this. All you can do is brainwash children; and even many of them will shake it off as soon as they mature and encounter outside influence.

Just wow.

"The only real answer is that it's either clearly a naive, 19th Century racist attitude that got mistaken for 'the Word of God' or it's the most perfect book on the planet."

That takes us to another issue: The church's essay on blacks and the priesthood concedes that the priesthood ban was the product of racism of 19th-century church leaders, and was wrong. Teryl and Fiona Givens reportedly affirm that stance. So, if church leaders, beginning with Joseph Smith could be wrong about the Negro curse, then why can't the similar verbiage about native Americans in the BOM be wrong as well?

"Missionaries take the latter position and defend it no matter what anybody else says about it."

The on-line missionary that the OP chatted with kept going back to "If the church/BOM are true, then this issue doesn't matter." What these Mobots need to be told is that it's issues like these which *make* the church/BOM false. If the racist dogma in the BOM is false and wrong, then the entire BOM is false and wrong. The Lamanite curse is a major premise of the BOM story. If it's false, then the whole story is false.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/24/2015 01:14AM by anybody.

"...[S]ome later [Nephite prophets] considered being cut off from the presence of God as well as the mark upon the Lamanite skins to be a curse (Alma 3:6). Thus we read,

"'And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men. And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a mark upon them, yea, upon Laman and Lemuel, and also the sons of Ishmael, and Ishmaelitish women. And this was done that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their brethren, that thereby the Lord God might preserve his people, that they might not mix and believe in incorrect traditions which would prove their destruction. And it came to pass that whosoever did mingle his seed with that of the Lamanites did bring the same curse upon his seed. Therefore, whosoever suffered himself to be led away by the Lamanites was called under that head, and there was a mark set upon him. And it came to pass that whosoever would not believe in the tradition of the Lamanites, but believed those records which were brought out of the land of Jerusalem, and also in the tradition of their fathers, which were correct, who believed in the commandments of God and kept them, were called the Nephites, or the people of Nephi, from that time forth. (Alma 3:6-11)'

"While at least some of the Nephites disdained the Lamanites because of their skin color, the Lord was concerned about the sinful nature of the Lamanites and merely used their physical characteristics to deter the Nephites from accepting their wicked ways."

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1457&index=10


This bit of Mopologist spin just digs the hole of BoM racism that much deeper.

Oh! NOW it's not racist at all! That makes way more sense! Cause they're only JUDGING them based off of their skin color instead of it being a curse! Thank you Mormonism for finally explaining that! :)

Mormonism is a uniquely American religion. Mormonism was created to appeal to white settlers living on the American frontier of the 1820s. Racism is part of Mormon scripture and theology. The "Book Of Mormon" narrative is based on racism and racist ideas. The Brethren have managed to change Mormonism from a millennial end times sex cult into a prosperity religion promulgating conservative American values. They will never be able to rid The Church™ of racism -- no matter what statements or denials they make.

anybody wrote

-The Brethren have managed to change Mormonism from a millennial end times sex cult into a prosperity religion promulgating conservative American values.-

wow, thanks I'm going to use that!

Touché ;0)

"While at least some of the Nephites disdained the Lamanites because of their skin color, the Lord was concerned about the sinful nature of the Lamanites and merely used their physical characteristics to deter the Nephites from accepting their wicked ways."

The problem is more than just "deterring the Nephites from accepting their wicked ways." The BOM specifically states that the reason for the dark skin curse was to make the accursed people not be "enticing" to the Nephites---in other words, not sexually attractive. The obvious meaning being that dark-skinned people are less sexually attractive than lighter-skinned people. That's blatant racism, and as long as the church proclaims the BOM to be the word of God, it will be a racist church.

I've never run across the idea in any ancient sources that dark
skin was considered less attractive. However I have run across
that idea in America starting before the coming forth of the
Book of Mormon. The idea that a dark skin automatically makes
one not "enticing" is another anachronism in the BOM.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2015 11:04AM by baura.

If only I could face palm even harder...I just...I just can't even...

I was taught back in 2006 by two White American LDS kids with black badges that negroes were marked with a dark skin for less valiancy and hence the Priesthood ban.

When I tried to ask a couple of Sister Missionaries about it and showed them Brigham Young's teachings on negroes they would burst into Hissy fits rather than address the LDS doctrine.

Later in 2007 I was simply given a shun order by one so called missionary friend because I was reading anti Mormon stuff like the rock in a hat as well as asking other tough questions on LDS history and doctrine she never knew about.

Mormonism is great for Dumb people at the bottom of the of the MLM pyramid and great for those who know it's BS at the higher levels but have their hands on the finances.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/24/2015 07:51AM by Zeezromp.

Its impossible to reason with them.

Well done...you really have a way highlighting what is awful about Mormonism. I really enjoy your posts. Keep up the good work. I noticed she didn't have much of a come back when you quoted the scripture to her. This is the most racist church in America, in my opinion.

This is how faith (applied to anything) works. If you REALLY believe, then nothing gets in the way, then all the horrible and ridiculous stuff doesn't matter. Hurray for willful ignorance, er, I mean faith!

This is not how faith works. This statement is unfair. I was listening to a radio show yesterday, don't know what it was, but the subject was the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her hair. The discussion focussed on guilt and redemption and the Christian attitude toward the unworthy or guilty, as contrasted with the Pharasees. The discussion had much apt psychology, and whether there was or wasn't a Jesus made no difference to the discussion. The situation is real in society. What's a prison for? is a discussion that's on the forefront of American politics at the moment.

Working out moral questions for the purpose of making policy for society is not simply a matter of "Is the church true? Yes? Well then...I don't know what that means because I've got to wait until a corporate executive tells me." Of course science and history are important. Whatever direction society takes must not contradict proveable reality. However, values do direct decision-making. The alternatives are not either blind faith in nothing, or no value-based discrimination whatsoever.

Well done. It does bring up two more 'Stump the Missionary' questions to me:


1. Laman and Lemuel are a-holes from the beginning, beating up Nephi and basically trying to kill him. Why didn't god either snuff them right then and there (saving a *whole* lot trouble later on) or at the very least turn their skin dark so they wouldn't be enticing to Ishmael's daughters (saving a *whole* lot of trouble later on). And why didn't the skin turn dark of the people who tried to stone Lehi to death? It seems like they had turned from the Lord...

2. If I was being a jerk, and suddenly my skin turned dark and loathsome, I'm pretty sure I would say: "Holy crap!! Oh, God, I'm sooooo sorry I've been a weenie!" Otherwise, it seems like Laman and his followers must have seen each other and said: "Heeeey, lookin' good..."

I am a never Mormon luckier, and just fascinated by this web page... I grew up in CA and had to put up with arrogance of Mormons, their evangelist, and applogists..

I think what Koriwhore is doing is really good... It is about time that Mormon " spokespeople" get called on all the "truth" claims they have made over the years... It is one thing if they had just stayed quietly in Utah after getting pushed out to their, but the aggressive "truth" claims need to be "called"

I might be in SlC in November, and I am really tempted to go to the museum and ask to to see the rock and the hat..... I would like to see the aggressive "tour" guides respond :)

a battle of wits with unarmed mormons. *LOL*

Everybody has the ability to reason, unless it is replaced by group think and cliches. The only way to penetrate that thick shell is to ask thiught proviking questions that cannot be answered with cliches.

koriwhore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Everybody has the ability to reason, unless it is
> replaced by group think and cliches. The only way
> to penetrate that thick shell is to ask thiught
> proviking questions that cannot be answered with
> cliches.


No, Koriwhore, everybody does not have the ability to reason. Reason, logic, critical thinking are tools. The ability to use tools properly requires training and practice.

For example, do you know what a hame is and how to use it? If you are like most early 21st century inhabitants of this planet, the answer is you don't know what it is or how to use it.

Likewise, reason and other related critical thinking tools require work to use well. The teenagers you insist on harrassing obviously have not had that training or practice. This is not their fault, regardless of the positions they have been put in, without their choice.

(A hame is part of a horse's collared harness, used for pulling plows, wagons, etc.)

Grow up and pick on more worthy opponents.

Sterling Skouson

One man's meat is another man's poison.

Interesting saying, but some truths are objective, not open for wild ass interpretation. When your scriptures clearly say God cursed people with black skin to make them less attractive, that ain't meat, its poison, no matter how you spin it to fit your bullshit world view.

I'm thinking more along the lines of some people like their racist world view just fine.

Back when the Priesthood ban was in effect, those of us who opposed it were branded as troublemakers. Thus, their meat is our poison.

An important part of racist ideology is that no matter how much a person or group is disliked, he can always take comfort in knowing that he's not the worst. He/it is the kind that is perfectly happy dismissing racist scriptures because put him in the better position before God.

Their God, the only one Joseph Smith ever pointed to and said, this image (Fig. 7, fax 2, BoA)represents God" When in reality, it only represents the God we now think of as Pan, the hoofed, pan flute playing, oversexed, god the Egyptians called, Min. Google Min God and see what pops up, warning, NSFW, not even the wikipedia article is.
If the wikipedia article about your God is NSFW perhapa your whole abusive sex cult is NSFKids

I'm no longer a mormon and their gods are irrelevant to me.

One other point is that while many mormons are fine with the racism in their holy scriptures, the missionaries have strict guidelines and monitors. If they were to show signs of wavering toward your point, they would be quickly replaced by a senior chat-meister who will terminate the connection and counsel them on their duties. Because the missionaries are slaves, they cannot go off script no matter how they personally feel.

But it matters to me when there are 88,000 of these CULT recruiters out lying to people every day by omitting important deciding facts about Joseph's Myth.
These facts, that are only this year being published by this dishonest CULT, were kept secret from me and the past 5 generations of my family. They ought to be published far and wide. A bright spotlight ought to be focused on this immoral doomsday cult and this is the best way for me to do it, by publishing their lies and their absurd, extremely racist and misogynist doctrines and beliefs. (not to mention homophobic and just plain abusive)