Mormon's are always pushing the envelope to the edge, in fact it's almost cheating.

Take Saturday's game against Nebraska for example. The young backup quarterback, throwing the "Hail Mary" winning touchdown, a true freshman, was a 22 year old returned Missionary. He'll be at least 26 years old his senior year.

What this really means is by using the 2 year Mission for BYU's athletes the "Y" is fielding teams of kids that are much older, stronger and more experienced that the teams they compete against.And that doesn't take into account the Kid's they "Redshirt" are even older.

And that's the reason BYU teams are so competitive. They normally play against Kids that are at least 2 years younger.

Something to think about and I'd be interested in the board's comments.

I question your premise that BYU football is that great.

Yes they did win on Sat because the Nebraska coach failed to teach his defense basic skills like going for the ball (to hit it not catch it) when you have so many defensive backs and not pushing their end in the end zone when he jumps up to catch the ball thrown outside of the end zone!

As a college athlete myself there is the experience factor that increased my abilities in certain sports. However, I was not a football player and not sure 'older' in most positions is any advantage and definitely would not consider it 'almost cheating' as all schools can do this.

I don't think many kids get a whole lot of football experience on their missions.

And I agree with spiritist -- BYU football isn't that great, or "so competitive." They ranked #1 in the NCAA in 1984, and cracked the NCAA top ten a few other times. But most of the time since 1972, they've had NO NCAA ranking at all.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2015 01:04PM by ificouldhietokolob.

While the two year lay off may bring with it a certain amount of added maturity, I have come to understand that there is definitely a potential for loss of muscle mass, muscle tone and muscle memory. Getting all those back is possible, even likely, but if you've got a 21 year old RM White boy wide receiver home two months from his mission, lined up against a 19 year foaming at the mouth D-back with three years of HS ball and one year of college ball, thinking that football is his ticket to fame and fortune, I'm gonna put my money on the 19 year old.

Don't like the church, hate Mendenhall as a coach but love watching those white boys every year lining up against nations best and kicking ass many times. Don't hate on those mountain boys when it comes to the gridiron.

"white boys"?

As in, you're one, I'm not.

Does this term confuse you Berkley?

spiritist,

You totally misunderstand the point I'm trying to make.It doesn't matter the team sport. Sure all major college programs redshirt Kids,hold them back to preserve eligibility.

My point is that if you took the average age of BYU's athletic teams you'll finds the Kids at the "Y" are older. That means they're smarter, stronger and have more experience and this shows up in their performance on the field.

And yes your right BYU's Football is not that great and Nebraska's defensive back's coach failed to tell his Kids to go for the ball which cost them the game.

But my entire point is older Kids have a competitive advantage over younger Kids and the Mormon Mission makes all the difference.

If returned missionaries were considered an advantage the 'big name' college schools would ID this and recruit them!

Guess what ----- how many RMs with all this 'maturity' are being recruited for other 'football' schools?

Concerned Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My point is that if you took the average age of
> BYU's athletic teams you'll finds the Kids at the
> "Y" are older. That means they're smarter,
> stronger and have more experience and this shows
> up in their performance on the field.

Once again, spending two years on a mission doesn't make anyone smarter, stronger, or give them more experience in sports.
In fact, they're very likely less "smart" in their sport (not having learning anything about it for 2 years), less "strong" in their sport (not having practiced or worked out for 2 years), and have less experience (having been away from the sport completely for 2 years).

The backup QB at Alabama for one

Legit starting Y prospects tend to get cushy mission assignments and are allowed to work out hours a day as opposed to tracting. At least the ones I know were

El stig Wrote:
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> Legit starting Y prospects tend to get cushy mission assignments and are allowed to work out hours a day as opposed to tracting. At least the ones I know were

Hours a day?? Not buying this. Name some names.

Yawwwwwwnnnnnn. Nebraska wasn't even ranked.

As far as having a team loaded with older returned missionaries...two years off from the sport doesn't increase strength or skill level.

There's no advantage to be gained by serving a 2-year LDS mission.

I think missions are a wash at best. For every perceived advantaged gained from older RM athletes, there are downsides to being away from the game and formal training for 2+ years. I'm not much of a BYU fan these days, but for reasons other than this topic.

I joke with my TBM friends that the average BYU football player is 32 and has 4 kids. They hate that...

I feel my efforts are Fruitless, like trying to argue with a TBM you're just not going to win, there's always an If, And or But, in a Mormon rebuttal.

Conditioning has nothing to do with it, those Kids can be in top condition in two or three months. Experience has nothing to do with it BYU has started "Tongans" that have never played Football

My entire point is a 22 year old Kid is better than a 20 year old kid and it's the two year mission that makes all the difference.

Concerned Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I feel my efforts are Fruitless, like trying to argue with a TBM you're just not going to win, there's always an If, And or But, in a Mormon rebuttal.

It appears to me that YOU are playing the TBM role here.

> Conditioning has nothing to do with it, those Kids can be in top condition in two or three months. Experience has nothing to do with it BYU has started "Tongans" that have never played Football

Who are these "Tongans" who have never played football??

> My entire point is a 22 year old Kid is better than a 20 year old kid and it's the two year mission that makes all the difference.

And you would be wrong.

Concerned Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My entire point is a 22 year old Kid is better
> than a 20 year old kid and it's the two year
> mission that makes all the difference.

The reason people are arguing is that you haven't provided any basis whatsoever for that "point." You've just claimed it's a fact, without anything to back it up.
Those who don't agree with you (myself included) gave *reasons* for not agreeing with you, and pointed out why doing a 2 year mission doesn't result in a "better" player.

What are your reasons for claiming they're "better?"

Wrong wrong wrong

Concerned is obviously not nor has ever been an athlete.

Concerned Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I feel my efforts are Fruitless, like trying to
> argue with a TBM you're just not going to win,
> there's always an If, And or But, in a Mormon
> rebuttal.
>
> Conditioning has nothing to do with it, those Kids
> can be in top condition in two or three months.
> Experience has nothing to do with it BYU has
> started "Tongans" that have never played Football
>
> My entire point is a 22 year old Kid is better
> than a 20 year old kid and it's the two year
> mission that makes all the difference.

Why are you writing Tongans in parentheses? They did recruit some 400 lb Polynesian rugby player for this season but I think he's going on a mission first.

I'd have to agree with everyone else though... Taking 2 years off of football and not having real athletic training would in no way make up for being 2 years older... Otherwise all schools would want to snatch up all the RM's... But they don't. I know mormon guys who lost their football scholarships because they went on missions. I personally think a mission is a hindrance and a huge opportunity cost. If my kid was Jimmer Fredette, Jabari Parker, or Steve Young, I would want them to train for their sport instead. And guess what, none of those three went on missions.

Taking an rm is kind of a crapshoot... You never know if they'll perform like they did in high school till you see them on the field. They may have lost that athletic ability... I had a mission companion who was a football player... He looked like Brock Lesnar when we started lout missions... By the time we got back he was a twig... And he never recovered.

Missions probably provide a slight advantage. Being associated with a reactionary religious organization has been a huge disadvantage because it kept BYU out of the PAC 12.

A weak argument especially since when BYU football wasn't even a blip on the college scene (pre Lavell Edwards days)the knock against BYU was that they would never be anything because they kept sending kids off on missions.

2 years on a mission means 2 years of muscle loss and getting out of shape. The announcers on tv even talked about this and were surprised that quarterback Tanner Mangum had only been home 3 months from his mission. It makes me think that Elder Mangum wasn't the most obedient missionary, and spent more of his time working out rather than proselytizing. How else could could he be in such great shape so soon.

There are always RM's that go to other schools too. Its talent not age that makes the athlete. There are many non-LDS kids on the roster too. Don't know the percentage because I don't care enough about BYU teams to look it up.
Its baseball not football, but anyone remember what Bryce Harper told that reporter this summer....."Not all LDS's kids like BYU."
Then there was Mad Dog Madsen that played basketball at Stanford and a few years in the NBA....yep an RM. Just to name 2 LDS athletes. There are many more.
I don't think YBU has any advantage because of RM's. If they do, just imagine how bad they would be without them because they aren't all that good anyway.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2015 06:06PM by mankosuki.

OK, here's my argument below

http://www.axonpotential.com/athletes-and-age-of-peak-performance/

Now if anyone takes the time to read it you'll learn that athletes peak at 22 to 30 depending on the sport. Football players depending on the position peak from 27 for wide receivers to 25 to 35 for quarterbacks.

So it would stand to reason a kid that's two years older, (the time spent on a Mission), would have a competitive advantage over the younger kid.

Where in your study does it mention how two years of total inactivity (physical conditioning and skill development) effect peak performance? I bet the study was based pretty much on non-interruption (let alone for TWO YEARS of doing nothing sports related) of the athlete's timeline.

It sounds like you are stuck with a little league mentality. Yes, a couple of years make a big difference in skill level...in little league. Once you hit college athletics that age advantage is out the window.

How about finding a study that shows an athlete doing better in his sport after shutting it down for two years. Having been involved in professional sports for 20 years and seeing the effects of prolonged inactivity on athletes, I wish you luck with that one.

Mr Happy,

It's "Not" my "Study" it's a generalization of the average athlete.I'm sure you read its a parabolic curve that raises very fast then levels off with age depending on the sport.And that's where the two year mission becomes a factor.

Its got nothing to do with Mormon missions or sitting on the sidelines for two years with no conditioning or practice . Its simply states the average age of peak performance of athletes in various sports.

So Mr. Happy, is your tithing all paid up in the "Cult" and the Temple recommend in your wallet. Because that's what you sound like, a TBM that will argue to the end of the day about the slights thing that might cast your Church in a bad light.

Just Sayin my friend

Concerned Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So Mr. Happy, is your tithing all paid up in the "Cult" and the Temple recommend in your wallet. Because that's what you sound like, a TBM that will argue to the end of the day about the slights thing that might cast your Church in a bad light.

LOL!!!!!!!! As I stated above, YOU are the one who is sounding like a TBM. What makes it even more laughable is apparently you don't even realize it. LMFAO!!!! The sentence above points it out even more. Don't reconsider your stance in spite of being hammered on it throughout the thread...PERSONALLY ATTACK THE MESSENGER!!! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't give up on your recovery. You still have a WAYS to go.

Just saying' my friend.

Concerned Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mr Happy,
>
> It's "Not" my "Study" it's a generalization of the
> average athlete.I'm sure you read its a parabolic
> curve that raises very fast then levels off with
> age depending on the sport.And that's where the
> two year mission becomes a factor.

It's not any such "generalization." And if you had bothered to follow the link where the "football" data came from, you'd find it wasn't even a scientific study -- it was some guy who pulled statistics from the NFL *ONLY*, and where the lowest age considered (which had the least number of samples) was 21.

So, it wasn't a generalization of the average athlete -- it was statistics from professional football players. It's also not a parabolic curve; the author found a steep rise to the "peak," and a much slower, gradual decline on the other side. That's not a parabola.

And once again, nothing in the study considers anyone who took two full years off from their sport -- all of the links I followed for various sports were for *professional* athletes (many of the links don't work), and none of them were scientific studies, most were *blogs* written by amateurs.

Isn't it interesting, by the way, that the author of that piece as "Dan Peterson?" ;-)

It's easily debatable just how much difference furthering physical maturation in athletes would make at that age. Different people, speaking anecdotally in general, do reach their peak on their own schedules. One person might get a boost from playing sports older and another might find it to be a detriment at the same age. Being far away from the most ideal forms of physical training is, of course, a clear detriment to one's peak fitness. BYU as a school, however, has every reason to be well-versed in how too deal with athletes who find themselves in this situation. This matter is close to being a wash for me but I lean towards expecting the missions to be an overall detriment mainly because they last as long as they do, when the vast majority of maturation to adulthood is complete in these cases most of the time anyways. BYU has a fairly good record athletically across all its programs but I can see no indication of how anything is giving them a dramatic enough advantage to pique more widespread curiousity in the sporting world.

Thinking someone is wrong in particular is very different from knowing how they tend to be in general. I guess what I'm trying to say is I can't figure out why this point amounts to more than an interesting speculation. I wouldn't mind knowing more about what made a quarterback at BYU make the most of his moment in the spotlight regardless of his religious affiliation. Not getting Sundays off by the way, I'd suggest, is still bad for his football. You gotta recuperate sometime! :)

Mangum looked like an anorexic byu coed out there. being 2 months off a mission is impressive with what he did. On the mission you aren't lifting and conditioning everyday. You come back incredibly rusty. I think he got lucky though. I don't expect him to do well against Boise. He will make a lot of mistakes and Boise will run all over YBU. 54-17 Boise State next week.