What was set to be the happiest day of his 3-year life, my son was playing with a balloon and it popped. The pressure released caused damage to his eye, and it became red immediately. In the morning he will be taken to a specialist.

The balloon was made in China, so no lawsuit will help to defray medical or surgery costs.

Advice to my wife was to make sure he doesn't scratch it, causing new injury. The doctor will surely prescribe antibiotic and patch, perhaps Vitamin C...and I am confident that a month from now, we will laugh at the memorable birthday pictures.

However, I did tell her that if it is God's will that our son have one eye, no team of doctors on earth could save the eye.

How soon things can change! How unexpectedly, by unknown threats. I do have a belief that our lives are very carefully designed, and are not merely random. Each person we intersect with is no accident, in my opinion.

Put yourself in God's shoes. Imagine you took a good long time to learn about every finite detail of existence, then spent tons more time on life forms, personalities and intellects.

Would you not also make many life-paths for each that would ensure a grand result? If your answer is no, then you are unaware of the power of love.

If there is a God, and we are indeed created in His image, then we are each luckier than any Powerball winner.

Life is then pure opportunity.

To be able to have children is beyond awesome.

To watch them grow, and to raise them as if you were raising your self...it just can't be a better method, ever.

Flippant atheists ignore the most obvious evidences, and I have little patience for them. They took the easy way out of thinking: "There is no God!"

Well, as you like it. Fine, for you.

But if there is a God, then He is our father.

And if He exists, so does eternity.

This life is an invisible sliver of time compared to that other side. For this reason, I will be sure to have an Ace up my sleeve, come Judgment Day. It will be in the lives of my children. They cannot be happy knowing that Papa is burning in Hell, forever.

Providing opportunity, protection, sustenance, schooling and hobbies is exactly what God does for us. I will be found doing the same for my children.

Hope it works.

https://www.balloonhq.com/

ElderCarrion Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Flippant atheists ignore the most obvious
> evidences, and I have little patience for them.
> They took the easy way out of thinking: "There is
> no God!"
> Well, as you like it. Fine, for you.

That's rather insulting. To millions and millions of people, who've spent countless hours in thoughtful contemplation of the claimed "evidence," who've struggled with social norms, their own desires, and who have desperately searched for some evidence to show there is a "god." Just dismiss all of that, and call them "flippant." Then you don't have to deal with them honestly or rationally.

> But if there is a God, then He is our father.
>
> And if He exists, so does eternity.

And if there isn't, then he isn't. And there's no "eternity." How should we decide those questions? By our "feelings?" Or by an honest, difficult, rational evaluation of reality? You seem to favor the former. I favor the latter. I don't ignore the contradictions in claims about a "god," I don't accept arguments from ignorance and incredulity as "evidence," I don't assume feelings come from unseen, magical, unevidenced beings. But I guess that just makes me "flippant." Even though it doesn't.

And a balloon popping can just be a balloon popping. Without some unseen magical imagined "plan" behind it.

If believing in such things makes you happy, or gives you some hope, great. Enjoy. Be happy.
But don't dismiss as "flippant" those of us who agonize over claims of a "god" thing, and come to a different conclusion than you do. Or pretend that your beliefs are knowledge, when they're not. Or insist that your way is "better," when it isn't. It's just your way. Ours is different. We get no less joy out of life, we don't care less for our children. And we're not "flippant."

:applause: & :more applause:

My dear fellow Elder, here's all the truth you need:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUSKTk9ENzg

Do all you can to achieve what you seek, but keep the video's message in mind.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=atheist+scientist+turned+believer

Among the sharpest minds on earth are atheists. I enjoy reading their opinions and ever-changing facts.

But I admire more the courageous few who were staunch atheists, having studied the evidences of the growing body of former atheists, proclaim that their former beliefs were insufficient to make atheism authentic and sustainable.

The most airtight proofs of God and eternity and design may be found in the ones who now correct their former, weak arguments.

If atheism is truth, I am an atheist. I pursue truth, no matter where it may be found.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Former+atheist

see also

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=CRI%2C+Christian%2C+former+atheist

ElderCarrion Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=atheist+scien
> tist+turned+believer
>
> Among the sharpest minds on earth are atheists. I
> enjoy reading their opinions and ever-changing
> facts.
>
> But I admire more the courageous few who were
> staunch atheists, having studied the evidences of
> the growing body of former atheists, proclaim that
> their former beliefs were insufficient to make
> atheism authentic and sustainable.

Why, because they agree with you? Is that why they merit your admiration, and none for those who "studied" just as hard, and came to different conclusions? No admiration for those, just (if not more) honest and sincere who don't come to your conclusion? Are they just being "flippant" again?

You also seem to have a somewhat mistaken view of atheism...it's not a belief that there's no god. There's nothing "authentic" or "sustainable" involved. That's a straw-man atheism. It's a lack of belief in claims that "gods" exist. Nothing more.

> The most airtight proofs of God and eternity and
> design may be found in the ones who now correct
> their former, weak arguments.

There is not only no "airtight" proof of any god, there is no proof at all. Also no evidence. What is claimed as "evidence" is fallacious. That doesn't bother some people. It does others. That someone "believes" in a god, former atheist or not, is about that someone -- it's not about "proof." There isn't any.

> If atheism is truth, I am an atheist. I pursue
> truth, no matter where it may be found.

Atheism makes no truth claims -- there's that strawman version of it again.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2015 02:51PM by ificouldhietokolob.

The majority of atheist turned Christian arguments are "I was angry at God", "I thought God was a jerk", or "How could he allow all of this suffering". They never actually dissociated from their feelings or their belief in God. Their entire atheist world view was based under the idea that God is real.

They never asked "what if God really just doesn't exist?" "What if these things just happen and our emotions need to be cherished as something that give us purpose and are important instead of something that are controlled by a higher power and tell us what to do?" It's all about perspective. But like ifIcouldhietokolob said, if they came to a different conclusion that's fine. Just understand that people who are strictly atheist did not come to that conclusion for any simple, or easily dismissed, reason.

Shit is gonna happen. Some I can guard against...some I can't. I have become very careful about what I do as I age to cut down the risk of injuring myself. But there are some things I have no control over and ain't no dude in the sky gonna protect me from 'em.

Ron Burr

For Eldercarrion.....Judge not, least ye be judged.

And I don't NOT think about it. It never crosses my mind.

I've found water with a water witch. I've had plenty of psychic experiences. I've been banned from playing Pictionary (and bridge and many other games) with my best friend who can guess what I'm going to draw just as I put the marker to the paper.

In the end, it didn't change my life and I didn't make a religion out of it. The struggle of being a good person, not injuring others and not being injured by others, including those who have "good" intentions, goes on every day for me. I don't see how these "experiences" play into that struggle.

I believe in things I can't prove. But to me those things are just more natural phenomena - not signs that I need to follow some crackpot.

I am into psychic, medium, intuition ... experiences and they "should" change your life or you need to expand how you use this stuff ----- maybe study or brainstorming how to use it may help. I am not very effective at using psychics in card games but improving.

Maybe the medium experiences are more life changing when it comes to ----- God, after life, spirits, karma, understanding life, etc.

I am struggling with a lot of psychic 'games' and uses, but one that works pretty good is how I use it to project the stock market direction.

I have been projecting it for over 10 days (more than 2 weeks because I do get busy and cannot do it each day when out of town recreating) with over 90% accuracy. I also use my wife in 'blind' calling of various indices in the stock market. I do this by making up things for her to compare in her mind, totally unrelated to the market, but it works as her subconscious mind knows the 'real' questions and has been right 3 times in a row ----- just started using her.

I don't really need the money but it is fun to make a few hundred on a normally daily trade ---- but I don't trade everyday yet ---- too busy and again the money is secondary it's the experience that is most important to me. But this type of usage could be 'life changing' for certain people.

Any good books that helped you so far or just practice, practice, practice?

The only way to know if there is a God is to gain 'experiences' for yourself that 'prove' to yourself that God exists.

I can't prove God exists. But have had numerous medium, psychic, intuition, etc. experiences and have read a number of books in a variety of areas and authors with 'similar experiences/information' to mine.

I agree people can 'believe' without 'experiences' but I am very concerned that so many in religion 'believe' false things about God so I question their experiences.

If their 'experiences' just involve 'feelings' with 'no communication' or very few 'communication experiences' or experiences while using drugs (near death experiences) then that is the reason for the differences ----- in my 'humble' opinion.

I have no problem with what people without experiences believe.

In the big scheme of things it all works out and everyone gets to the after life. Maybe some progress more here than others but eternity is a long time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2015 02:41PM by spiritist.

spiritist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The only way to know if there is a God is to gain
> 'experiences' for yourself that 'prove' to
> yourself that God exists.

Since such "experiences" can't be shown to come from any "god" -- I disagree.

Knowledge is demonstrable. "Experiences" aren't. They may be convincing to YOU, but they're not knowledge. That they come from a "god" is a belief, not knowledge.

I don't dismiss your "experiences." I'm sure they're very convincing to you. I haven't had them. I can't have them, they're YOURS, "experience" internally. So they're not evidence, because they can't be repeated, and they're not knowledge, because they can't be demonstrated. If believing they're from a god makes you happy, good for you. There's no reason for ME to believe that, since you can't show any evidence they do.

Kolob stated:
"Since such "experiences" can't be shown to come from any "god" -- I disagree."

-------I never said my 'experiences' came directly from 'God' they come from a variety of people who should know in the 'after life'.

"Knowledge is demonstrable."

--------Then please demonstrate there is no 'God'!!!!!!

---------I thought not!! So we can all agree based on 'Kolob's statement' to say there is no God is not 'knowledge'. Or it is not 'knowledge' to say there is no 'God'.

How exactly do you get 'knowledge' if not through "repeatable", convincing, experiences

Sorry, my experiences are 'repeatable' to myself. They could be repeatable by others and definitely are (under hypnosis, using psychics or mediumship methods) if they studied processes to obtain the results I do.

I do strongly believe that all the 'believers in God' are definitely not talking about the same God ----- so that 'fact' is very concerning.

Of course I believe that is because some people accept 'feelings' instead of 'communications' or too few of experiences or being drugged (near death experiences). Too many also accept the 'testimony' of others alone which I believe is likely to end up with false results. I think many near death experiences, if the person is telling the truth, either misinterpret who they meet or discuss ----- probably again because they are on drugs.

spiritist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> "Knowledge is demonstrable."
>
> --------Then please demonstrate there is no
> 'God'!!!!!!

I've never claimed "there is no god." So why demand I demonstrate it? I simply find what's claimed as evidence of one unconvincing, so I don't "believe."

> ---------I thought not!! So we can all agree
> based on 'Kolob's statement' to say there is no
> God is not 'knowledge'. Or it is not 'knowledge'
> to say there is no 'God'.

Sure, rant about something I never said. That's reasonable. Sheesh.

Atheism isn't a claim that there is no god. It's a reasonable assessment of the claims that there ARE gods, finding them lacking, and not worthy of "belief."

> How exactly do you get 'knowledge' if not through
> "repeatable", convincing, experiences

Let's say I don't know how to make a table. Somebody who has knowledge of making tables can demonstrate their knowledge to me (and anybody else). I can then acquire that knowledge. Then I can pass the knowledge on to others as well. That's knowledge -- demonstrable. Personal, subjective, internal, unverifiable "experiences" -- where not even the person who has them can show any evidence of their source -- are not "knowledge." They're personal, subjective experiences that are not demonstrable.

> Sorry, my experiences are 'repeatable' to myself.
> They could be repeatable by others and definitely
> are (under hypnosis, using psychics or mediumship
> methods) if they studied processes to obtain the
> results I do.

Since I previously asked you to demonstrate that your "experiences" were valid, and your response was to get angry, call me names...let's just let that go, shall we?

I'll just point out that while others may have SIMILAR "experiences," yours are not repeatable. Ever. Think about it.

> I do strongly believe that all the 'believers in
> God' are definitely not talking about the same God
> ----- so that 'fact' is very concerning.

It's worse than that. A quick survey of the claimed "experiences" humans claim to have, and the conclusions they draw from them, should demonstrate to any reasonable person that "experiences" are not a reliable way to draw any conclusions whatsoever.

> Of course I believe that is because some people
> accept 'feelings' instead of 'communications' or
> too few of experiences or being drugged (near
> death experiences). Too many also accept the
> 'testimony' of others alone which I believe is
> likely to end up with false results. I think many
> near death experiences, if the person is telling
> the truth, either misinterpret who they meet or
> discuss ----- probably again because they are on
> drugs.

OK. You can of course believe what you want. But without evidence to back up your beliefs, there's no reason anyone else should accept them. Which was my point all along.

Different people look at the same world/universe, and arrive at different conclusions. That's all fine, as long as they don't use their conclusions to harm others (which sadly, many do regularly). The OP said there was "proof" of god -- there isn't. Some argue there's evidence for gods/spirits/whatever it is you say you are in contact with...there isn't. Evidence is verifiable and repeatable. Your experiences are convincing to you. Great. But since you can't (as you yourself admit) "prove" you have them, that their source is a spirit/afterlife/whatever, declaring them "fact" or "knowledge" or "true" isn't supportable. I'm not even saying you're wrong -- because I can't "prove" you are. I'm simply saying there's no reason to assume you're right.

I don't want to argue because you are really not making major points. No one can adequately prove a God because their evidence will not always be accepted by all.

I believe others can prove God by 'evidence/experiences' but the proof is not 'acceptable' to all.

In a court of law 'weaker/experience' type evidence is always used ---- many times it is the vast majority of the evidence and in fact is used to put people in prison, etc.

So 'evidence' weak and strong is always used by people to make decisions ----- best most people have. Unless people would learn how to use and rely on 'spirit' which would always be a witness for the truth.

spiritist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't want to argue because you are really not
> making major points. No one can adequately prove a
> God because their evidence will not always be
> accepted by all.

Why should that be the case? If there is such a thing, why can't there be verifiable evidence of it? There is for everything else that's real...

> I believe others can prove God by
> 'evidence/experiences' but the proof is not
> 'acceptable' to all.

"Proof" is by definition acceptable to all.

> In a court of law 'weaker/experience' type
> evidence is always used ---- many times it is the
> vast majority of the evidence and in fact is used
> to put people in prison, etc.

We're not in a court of law. And while what people say they heard or saw can be used (but is considered quite unreliable), an "experience" like you say you haven can't be used.

Repeated msg.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2015 02:37PM by spiritist.

For a moment I thought someone's Angioplasty procedure went horribly wrong.

When I stopped believing in "god" my entire life drastically improved and now I feel a great sense of peace.

Funny to me that some people report the same end result but with the opposite belief.

Perhaps its all in our heads and we should all believe what best improves our own lives and not worry about what others believe because ultimately... it doesnt matter

I appreciate your words Elder Carrion.

I'm in your camp.

It's better to stand up for what you believe and be in a minority than be silent, or worse go with the crowd at the expense of your convictions.

"Speak your mind even if you are a minority of one. The truth is still the truth." ~ Mohandas Ghandi

There are those who would hash the truth to shreds. But at the end of the day, it is truth that will stand even as we will fade away.

Whether there's a God isn't really subjective to me. Because if he *is,* nothing anyone chooses to believe will make any difference as to his existence or supreme reign. Likewise if he doesn't, our choosing to believe or not won't make a hill's beans worth of difference either.

I believe we pay a price for our choices - whether some call that Karma, laws of the Universe, what-have-you. I look at it as God who oversees our lives and our eternal existence.

How we teach our children is immensely important to their development, while we have stewardship over them.

I'm sorry that your child's eye was injured. That must have been very frightening for you. I can tell you that a number of years ago a child hit me in the eye. I had visual disturbances while speeding off to the eye doctor. But a few days later things were much better, and my eye recovered nicely. Do have faith in nature's ability to put things right. Good luck to you and your child.

"I do have a belief that our lives are very carefully designed, and are not merely random. Each person we intersect with is no accident, in my opinion".

Tell it to Elizabeth Smart.
Tell it to rape victims.
Tell it to kids beaten and brutalized by their own parents and family.
Tell it to kids and adults dying of starvation.

Your "god" is one mean asshole.

From the perspective of an eternal beings, learning lessons, with as many life's as they need to progress why not experience both the 'good' and the 'bad' ---- its not like you don't learn something on both sides. How can you learn good without experiencing both?

I know this is hard to understand being human now ---- but try to look at it from an 'eternal perspective'. What do you spend eternity doing?? These souls want and chose to experience this stuff to progress. Don't get this mixed up with Christianity or Mormons beliefs.

NO resurrection of old bodies ------ reincarnation of new bodies!

"Don't get this mixed up with Christianity or Mormons beliefs."

Okay, except that EVERYTHING you posted here could have just come out of General Conference (the same exact, unsupported, ethereal claims)--all we have to do is substitute the idea of reincarnation with resurrection, as you did in the last sentence.

I agree a lot of what JS taught appears to me that he did have some 'psychic/medium' input ----- whether it was himself or he read other psychic/medium information at the time I do not know.

As far as degrees of Glory (3) versus levels of progression 5-7? ----- again a medium-type belief. Families together in heaven versus spirit groups in the after life, angels vs spirit guides, judgment verses life review, etc. etc. All pretty similar.

Differences are Jesus Christ, Devil, Evil spirits, Hell, temple work, ordinances, tithing, etc.

Just wondering if you took your child anywhere for treatment yet? If you haven't, please don't wait until tomorrow, bring him somewhere ASAP.

That is the point of my post. It's just some muscle, like wiggling your ears. It doesn't help you in your daily life and doesn't make you a better person. It's stupid to focus on it and generally is bothersome when valid, and dangerous when false.

It's a complete waste of time.

I'd never bet money on it.

Agree with the 'muscle' idea ----- everyone has the muscle but some have very weak ones.

Disagree, with the 'waste of time' for me, however, if you believe strongly that it is a waste ----- then it definitely is for you.

My last trade was a 3% gain in a day ----- where can you invest safely to get that return in a year? Other information/guidance I have received has been significant to me but not always quantifiable.

I agree I am not at 100% accuracy but over 90% so far and hope to keep high by using spouse to give 'blind' projections to keep my accuracy rate when trading high with more than one projection. I also use technical analysis but only at extremes will I use it in lieu of my intuition/psychic determinations. I haven't traded unless both of us were in sync and we haven't been out of sync yet. Still, early in the game ----- we will see how it plays out over time.

I am trying various areas to use my intuition in ----- some areas seem to work much better for me than others.

If a parent beats their child, they're an abusive parent.
If God nearly takes a child's eye, though, that's A+ parenting.

Maybe I just don't get it because I got away from a pretty messy homelife where I was subjected to emotional abuse and ended up developing chronic pain, so you're just making it sound like I had one set of parents that preferred emotional abuse and another that prefers psychical abuse.

Yeah...that's...real comforting.

(To clarify, I ended up developing pain stuff after I moved out, so one shitty situation to another. I'm better off in a lot of respects but the pain makes it hard to enjoy it sometimes.)

Your God is mean if He injures a little child's eye with a balloon. I don't feel comfortable worshiping a god like that. And I don't even have any evidence that He exists.

A balloon popped so the church must be true! You could be a speaker for the next GC.