In another thread, knowheadusc pointed out that a professor had declined to speak at BYU based on its policy regarding the expulsion of disaffected Mormons.

I noted today that a national higher education journal is now reporting on the story:

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2015/10/07/scholar-boycotts-conference-brigham-young-u

I think this is great news.

I hope they emphasize what I believe is the most cruel part of the way they operate. They will not even give transcripts for the courses that a student took and successfully completed before the student "apothtacized". That is just ugly meanness, something TBMs specialize in, behind a big wolffish smile.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2015 12:57PM by annieg.

THIS IS NOT TRUE. IT HAS NEVER BEEN TRUE. (referring to annieg post)

Actual BYU students are trying to make decisions about their lives partly based on information they read here. Don't spout complete, unadulterated nonsense. It scares people who don't know better.

BYU does not remove courses from transcripts, nor do they withhold transcripts except for the same reasons other universities withhold them - usually because you owe them money. If they withhold a transcript, they are required by law to give you written notice as to why it is being withheld, and what you need to do to get the hold released.

They also do not withdraw degrees. If you are excommunicated before the degree is granted, they will refuse to grant the degree. But once you have the degree, barring major fraud (e.g. someone else took all your exams for you, or some such), you are good to go. The degree is yours.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2015 01:23PM by Brother Of Jerry.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
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> THIS IS NOT TRUE. IT HAS NEVER BEEN TRUE. (referring to annieg post)
>
> Actual BYU students are trying to make decisions about their lives partly based on information they read here. Don't spout complete, unadulterated nonsense. It scares people who don't know better.
>
>
> BYU does not remove courses from transcripts, nor do they withhold transcripts except for the same reasons other universities withhold them - usually because you owe them money. If they withhold a transcript, they are required by law to give you written notice as to why it is being withheld, and what you need to do to get the hold released.
>
> They also do not withdraw degrees. If you are excommunicated before the degree is granted, they will refuse to grant the degree. But once you have the degree, barring major fraud (e.g. someone else took all your exams for you, or some such), you are good to go. The degree is yours.

Chad Hardy.

michael Wrote:
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> Chad Hardy.


Yep.
http://chadhardy.com/meet_the_legal_team.html

I'm not sure what your point is. Chad Hardy's degree was not withdrawn. It was never awarded. There's a difference. A student is not awarded the degree when all the coursework is done. They are awarded the degree at graduation. Chad Hardy was excommunicated after completing his coursework, but before the degree was awarded.

Also, there's fine print in all graduation forms that students sign when they apply for graduation that the degree is contingent on successfully completing the final semester's work. Most graduations are held right after final exams, and the grades aren't even officially recorded at the time of the ceremony. That doesn't constitute withdrawing the degree. It is considered never to have been granted if the student failed to meet requirements in the last semester.

This was not the case with Chad Hardy, but he did manage to get himself excommunicated before the degree was granted, so BYU chose not to grant the degree. If he was excommunicated the day after graduation, BYU would have no legal grounds to do a thing to his degree. I suppose they could claim that the actions that resulted in the excommunication happened before the degree was granted. That would be an interesting court case. But it is not what happened to Chad Hardy, nor has it ever happened to any other BYU student as far as I know.

Whether or not it is legal is not the concern to me. Racial discrimination was just as legal as this a few decades ago, but that doesn't make it ethical. I was still at BYU when I started to doubt the church and eventually decided that it wasn't what it claimed to be. I lived in fear of this policy, since I only had a few semesters left. I could have been expelled for this. At the time, I was an emotional wreck and very depressed, as you would expect from anyone who has just lost their identity. Being kicked out of school would have been terrible for me, and I'm not sure I would have been able to go back somewhere else. So I hid for a whole year. Luckily, our bishop wasn't a very pushy guy. The one time I met with him, he also told me that he had doubted some things about the church for a while, so he just gave me some space. I can't imagine the hell it would have been to have some ultra-orthodox bishop during this time period. I probably never would have graduated from a university if I'd been expelled, or at least would have needed a few extra years to recover.

I don't really care if what the church does to BYU students who lose the faith is legally sanctioned: it is just plain hurtful and spiteful. I understand why they would want to do it, but then again I also understand why the KKK would want to keep African-Americans from voting.

Please re-read my post. At no time did I claim that they withdrew degrees. I know that once a degree is granted, they cannot and do not do that.

I also understand the all post secondary institutions withhold certification and transcripts until all fees are paid.

But many people have said they were kicked out of BYU for honour code violations they could not get transcripts of courses successfully completed which were need to transfer mid degree to another university.

Would like to hear from other people who have been at BYU and have had this happen (or not happen).

annieg, I was referring specifically to this statement you made:
They will not even give transcripts for the courses that a student took and successfully completed before the student "apothtacized".

That is not true. It has never been true. Student transcripts must be requested in writing. You can't just call up and request one, or even stop by the registrar's office and ask for one. You must sign a request. Student privacy issues and all that. If they won't release your transcript, they are obligated to give you a written explanation as to why, and what, if anything, you must do to get it released. It may be that you owe them money, or you have to sign a release on an athletic scholarship you will no longer be using - it could be any number of things.

OK, if a student is expelled for resigning from LDS Inc, what reason would they give for withholding a transcript? I'd love to see the wording on that letter. "You can't have your transcript because you've left The One True Church™, and you are icky. You can only get your transcript if you repent and are rebaptized."

Not even in Utah would that stand up in federal court. BTW, the law that defines all this is the FERPA Act of 1974, a federal law. It is to educational institutions what HIPAA is to hospitals. Schools are very careful not to get on the wrong side of a FERPA suit.

So, when I hear claims of transcripts not being released, I want to see the letter to see exactly why it was not released. I have asked for this a number of times here, and so far nobody has even claimed to have such a letter, or have seen one that someone else received. They certainly never emailed a copy to me.

Until I see such a letter, I will continue to claim that BYU does not hold transcripts of apostate students, at least not because of their apostacy. I am insisting on evidence appropriate to the claim being made. Talk is cheap.

For the real facts go to WWW.FREEBYU.ORG

That site has the facts based on recent experiences of real students dealing with faith changes. It also summarizes the challenges students may face.

I don't know how they handle transcript requests, but once you have a degree in hand and it is recognized by BYU they won't take it back if you leave TSCC or are excommunicated.

Ouch for the morg!!

So much for the 11th article of fake.

I went to BYU for 5 years, and had to keep my disbelief under wraps because I didn't want to get expelled. It was the hardest time of my life because I was knowingly being a hypocrite, unlike high school when I just wasn't sure if it was true or not. At the time when I was supposed to be discovering myself and expanding my horizons, I was instead expected to think and act in a very small box and never venture outside it.

I never recovered. Maybe I'm just weak, but all that lying took too much out of me.

Did you disbelieve the ENTIRE five years? If so, why stay knowing the pressure and the cog dis that would be required every day you were on campus?

I became a decided atheist in my 2nd year or so. But I arrived there knowing that I never liked the church. It was a bad decision, for sure. But it was my parents' wish that I attend BYU -- I'd been told about it for my entire life.

I seriously thought about transferring out to another school, maybe the UofU. But my parents paid my tuition and I was afraid they'd refuse to continue if I transferred. They never really knew about my doubts about the church; I could never tell them because I was afraid they'd disown me, as I'd seen a few of my friends be disowned for disbelieving.

Maybe I should have stood up for myself and gone my own way but I've always been a weak person, I admit. I needed my parents' support. So I chose to stay and be a hypocrite and a liar. Yeah... sometimes I realize it's no wonder I developed severe anxiety and depression.