I know this is a Sisyphean task, but I believe it is possible. I am daunted by the task. Polygamy, Joseph lying about it, WoW rules that are not as healthy as breaking the WoW, on and on. I wish I could get my wife to see something as so absurd in Mormonism that it shakes her faith. I want her to have Ash's syndrome. No so much that she becomes a caricature of her former unshaken-faith self like all Mormon apologists and anyone who claims what they once saw as a Mormon absurdity now is their most unshakable part of their faith.

I just want a part of The Emperor to be shown to be naked. Not even the nasty bits. I would rather never see Thomas Monson naked, but to have him look ridiculous in his garments only when he walks on water. I'm not going for pulling his pants down and having my wife see him uncovered. I want him to appear how he really is - a prophet with nothing to prophecy - an anointed one, anointed with Wesson Oil - a leader of a fold of people falling over themselves to give him the respect of an inspired man, when he has nothing inspiring to say.

Just a small thing really.

There is so much absurd in Mormonism so why can't they see this!!!

I think this is especially true of Mormonism. Mormonism seems to answer their questions in a way that makes sense to them so they want to believe it is true. They have a desire to believe and that grows in them until they actually do believe it. And Mormonism isn't the only place you see that. Many Mormon women don't want to believe in polygamy so that I've found that to be a soft spot that works with some of them. I feel like a lot of Mormon men who claim to believe really don't, but go along for the women who want to believe. That may include a few GAs.

I feel your pain. If you figure any thing out, please share it, so I can use it on my TBM husband. He is such an intelligent man in so many other ways, but is so blinded by "faith".

Mine too!

Nobody wants to rap the minds around the concept they have been duped for so long.

Disclaimer: I am an active Mormon.

I believe we all choose what we want to believe based on selected evidence. Of course for Mormons, there is physical evidence and then there is spiritual evidence. It has been my experience that the spiritual evidence weighs heavily. It seems more sure.

I am sure that you can draw away the weaker members of the church but discussing or debating points of doctrine or history is not good enough for the stronger members. I think that you would need to first numb their spiritual senses by drawing them away from studying and living the gospel. They then become easier prey.

Hi Peter. :)

I am curious as to this "physical evidence." If you don't mind, would you share some of said evidence as it applies in your personal testimony of the mormon church?

The problem is with the members...

Not with the fact that the religion is stupid.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2011 03:38PM by maria.

"They then become easier prey."

Peter, do the missionaries who ring my doorbell wishing to change my way of thinking so that it precisely matches theirs see me as "prey"?

You said...."I think that you would need to first numb their spiritual senses by drawing them away from studying and living the gospel. They then become easier prey."

Yes. Of course. What was your point, exactly?

The weaker members = the smarter members

The stronger members = the dumber members

numbing spiritual senses = realizing that the spirit is just emotions and not a reflection of truth by any rational or realistic definition.

@Peter--so you believe it is okay for Joseph Smith to have many individuals both male and female sign an affidavit testifying that Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy, spiritual wifery, whatever you choose to call it, have it published in a newspaper and then find out it was all a lie? I was taught from a very young age by my parents who were never members of the church, that my word and definitely signing my name to a piece of paper meant something. How dare you call any of us weak! JS could not even pass a temple recommend interview.

...but now that we are asking questions you're taking your passive aggressive "higher road" and not getting your hands dirty. Maybe you should retreat to the lurking trenches and stay there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2011 03:57PM by Queen of Denial.

I'm disappointed. I was hoping for an answer to my question. Assuming Peter served a mission, I want to know if he did perceive a potential convert as "prey," since he feels that an ex-Mormon wishing to help loved ones recognize the problems within the LDS church is looking for easy "prey."

Peter, your silence confirms my fear that my assumption is correct. Congratulations, you have successfully offended this previously curious individual from associating with any missionaries in the future. :)

Seems like an oxymoron, if its spiritual its not real evidence.

So is this like a dream where you get messages?
Do you read the BoM and dream about what you read, so it must be true? Or you read something and it just "feels right"?

Boilermaker (above) is on the right track. The other side of that, however, is that when people are confronted with ideas, beliefs or evidence that is contrary to their preconceived notions, cognitive dissonance sets in. Cognitive dissonance causes and uneasiness and stress. My guess is that most of us here have experienced cogdis and chosen to follow the evidence, use some critical thinking and get out of Mormonism. What makes a TBM so devoted is that, when confronted with cogdis, they blot out the evidence and close their minds to anything contrary. They shut down critical thinking and rely on faith which creates emotions of calmness and ignorant bliss.

I poke fun of Mormonism a lot for its silliness and apparent falsehood whenever appropriate (which is a lot). However, the root of my issues with Mormonism is that it's a gross falsehood and harmful lie masquerading as ultimate truth. I won't be a part of something like that.

So, that's how I discuss it. I say that I won't besmirch my good name by being part of such a disreputable organization. If Mormons want to talk about that, I'm willing to mention a few of issues that make their church disreputable if they want to research them. However they seldom do, and I'm not going to try to convince them of anything. They are free to believe whatever they want about Mormonism, but so am I.

You can't directly point out a flaw, they will just entrench.

You need to get them to find some some strongly held belief about something that is not directly criticizingly their faith, then point out something similar in Mormonism.

Say, "what do you think about Muslims who pray 5 times a day?" If they say it's a bit much... run the gamut on strong beliefs and dedication to god... they say "so how is this different than the garmies, where you are reminded 24 hours a day?"

Ask them about the institutions that refuse entrance to certain people, then ask them about the temple.

Small inconsistencies add up.

My husband took then indirect route. He would start conversations about how much faith the 9/11 terrorists had to do what they did. Slowly I started to see that blind faith is not a virture. Then he brought Mormonism into the conversation.

You don't and therein lies the rub. They have to do it themselves.

Ron

Even more sinister is that the TBMs equate Cog Dis as Satan.

If the information is making you feel bad, it must be because Satan is trying to get you and therefore anyone challenging your beliefs is in his power.

if it makes sense, then the forces of Evil are upon you.

good job, Rob.

Always love your posts.

but this time, you fucking nailed it.

That's a damn ace up your sleeve that there ain't no cure for.

Oh, its is a possessive pronoun. like his and hers and ours and its. it's is verbal contraction.

for the love God. it's really not that hard for you marments illiterates to stop pissing me off.

Susan, let's do you real soon.

application of a 2x4 to the forehead?

We should all remember that BKP told the sheeple that their testimonies and the "touch" of the spirit is like the taste of salt - you know what it is but can never describe it. Someone has to experience it to know what it is like. This is the perfect deflection of "anti" concerns b/c we can "never" know for ourselves b/c we are hardened against the spirit. Therefore it must be true.

What a load of BS the sheeple buy.

Nice shotgun approach, and true to the J.S. style of deflection. There is no need to describe what the spirit "really" is, because you can say that anything that anyone feels is the spirit, as long as it supports the church. And if it doesn't, there's no way I can show that you're wrong.

But in fact there are many descriptions of the spirit throughout mormon doctrine. The salt analogy is a covering of the bases. It is used in case anybody has the spirit tell them the church is false using those criteria (which happens all the time).

"You must not be tasting the salt, and I don't need to give any explanation as to why not, because I can't"

"We should all remember that BKP told the sheeple that their testimonies and the "touch" of the spirit is like the taste of salt - you know what it is but can never describe it.

Hmmm... what's the WoW say about a low salt diet?

Funny thing about salt; really fresh food doesn't usually need salt because it tastes fine on its own. Highly processed food contains salt to add flavor to bland ingrediants.
Maybe Chef Ramsey can help the church get some fresh cookin'... (and he says f*ck a lot!)

I don't see any reason to convince Mormons of anything. That's what they do. I have no responsibility at all to go in that direction. If a person is happy being a Mormon then fine. It's none of my business.

nodedog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't see any reason to convince Mormons of
> anything. That's what they do. I have no
> responsibility at all to go in that direction. If
> a person is happy being a Mormon then fine.

Its fine if you aren't married to them, love them to pieces and see them suffering in this life because you aren't going to be married to them in the afterlife.

The fact is that no one will see anything they don't want to see. Your best bet is to be true to yourself, answer questions honestly and keep your lip zipped otherwise -- unless someone else is being harmed by your silence.

It's hard to watch someone torture themselves but you really can't save them from that.

I would simply ask your wife if she trusts her God. If she does then God won't make her miserable in this life OR the afterlife, now will He?

(Granted, I don't believe in God but I do believe in good parenting.) :D

Rebeckah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would simply ask your wife if she trusts her
> God. If she does then God won't make her miserable
> in this life OR the afterlife, now will He?

She trusts God will set me straight someday. She doesn't blame God for my choices. I asked her if she loved me more than God since she is staying with me. She said that she loves God and me and said she is leaving it at that - however I want to take it.

She believes I believe in some form of God though I've told her that daily the idea that there is something metaphysical guiding existence is tenuous at best in my mind.

Show her how people like Josef Mengele, Adolf Hitler, Al Capone, Pope John Paul II, Martin Luther, Martin Luther King, and even Imohtep have had their temple work done.

Can anyone take Brother Adolfs Priesthood Ordination and sealing to Sister Eva Braun seriously?

John Paul II had his work done three times!

Still no Peter...

Peter...?

Pete...?