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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: December 13, 2015 10:07PM

Did you see the "Phoenix Lights" in 1997? Does Mormonism predispose people to believe in conspiracy theories or irrational explanations for rational events?


Mormonism is irrational, illogical and self-inconsistent. It takes a lot of mental juggling to be a believing Mormon and many Mormons live in the Phoenix area. Some of these people are very vocal proponents of the black helicopters/concentration camp/RFI microchip myth, the belief that vaccination is mind control, a flat or hollow Earth, stories of a secret cabal of reptilian aliens controlling everything or other conspiracy theories.


BTW, if someone from somewhere really sent a giant stealth ship to secretly observe the natives on a distant planet I doubt very much they would light it up so everyone could see it.

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: December 13, 2015 10:15PM

Military flares.

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Posted by: seekyr ( )
Date: December 14, 2015 09:40AM

I have no idea what they were, but it seems like if it was military, they would realize what a stir such a show would cause and would have given a "heads up" to the authorities.

I wouldn't put it past a person or group wishing to play a trick on everyone, though. I'd actually believe that before thinking that it was an alien ship.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: December 13, 2015 11:51PM

I don't know whether Governor Symington is/was a Mormon or not, but he saw something himself that he doesn't have an explanation for, like thousands of others who witnessed them in the skies. Whether they were flares or not, according to eye witnesses, some of the sightings may have been, but at least one of them he personally watched was too large and symmetrical to be flares, according to the governor (who is also a pilot.)

"Shortly after the lights, Arizona Governor Fife Symington III held a press conference, stating that "they found who was responsible". He proceeded to make light of the situation by bringing his aide on stage dressed in an alien costume. (Dateline, NBC). But in March 2007, Symington said that he had witnessed one of the "crafts of unknown origin" during the 1997 event, although he did not go public with the information.[30][31][32][33] In an interview with The Daily Courier in Prescott, Arizona, Symington said, "I'm a pilot and I know just about every machine that flies. It was bigger than anything that I've ever seen. It remains a great mystery. Other people saw it, responsible people. I don't know why people would ridicule it".[34] Symington had earlier said, "It was enormous and inexplicable. Who knows where it came from? A lot of people saw it, and I saw it too. It was dramatic. And it couldn't have been flares because it was too symmetrical. It had a geometric outline, a constant shape."[35]

Symington also noted that he requested information from the commander of Luke Air Force Base, the general of the National Guard, and the head of the Arizona Department of Public Safety. But none of the officials he contacted had an answer for what had happened, and were also perplexed.[35] Later, he responded to an Air Force explanation that the lights were flares: "As a pilot and a former Air Force Officer, I can definitively say that this craft did not resemble any man made object I'd ever seen. And it was certainly not high-altitude flares because flares don't fly in formation".[2] In an episode of the television show UFO Hunters called "The Arizona Lights", Symington said that he contacted the military asking what the lights were. The response was "no comment". He pointed out that he was the governor of Arizona at the time, not just some ordinary civilian.[36]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Lights

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: December 14, 2015 10:54AM

amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't know whether Governor Symington is/was a
> Mormon or not, but he saw something himself that
> he doesn't have an explanation for, like thousands
> of others who witnessed them in the skies.

"doesn't have an explanation for" means he can't personally explain it. It doesn't mean "it's aliens." It also doesn't mean it wasn't flares. His personal ignorance and incredulity are only evidence of his personal ignorance and incredulity -- "pilot" or not.

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Posted by: onendagus ( )
Date: December 14, 2015 11:12AM

There are 7 Billion people on our planet. You can find "eye witness accounts" of a lot of things. You can also line up "experts" supporting almost any position.

Among those 7 Billion there have always been and probably always will be credulous people.

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Posted by: poopstone ( )
Date: December 14, 2015 12:12AM

I think I vaguely remember this. Also that same year there appeared dozens of spacecraft over mexico city during a parade. There are many pictures and videos of the phenomenon. But people are more interested in what the kardashians are doing than worrying about aliens.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: December 14, 2015 04:06AM


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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: December 14, 2015 08:15AM

HA! Now this is interesting...

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Posted by: strangeloop ( )
Date: December 14, 2015 08:42AM

I live in Phoenix and have spoken with several people who claim to have seen them. I wasn't here during that time.

They all remember it differently, and all assume it must have been alien. None of them will acknowledge it could have been human technology we're just not privy to.

For supposedly thousands of people seeing it not one single person has reliable video evidence, and the one video that gets circulated is actually flares.

I need better evidence that it actually occurred. But to build a bridge between there being lights in the sky and that the origin of those lights is alien is just silly.

There is most certainly life on other planets, but the idea that those aliens collect heavy metals from said planet to construct ships and fly around the galaxy star-trek style is beyond silly.

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Posted by: libertytree ( )
Date: December 14, 2015 11:08AM

I saw them. They looked like flares from a combat jet making trial bombing runs. It was a clear calm night. Sometimes the sky becomes reflective. It was no big deal when I saw them.

Much about nothing here.

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Posted by: Shummy ( )
Date: December 14, 2015 11:44AM

Well there is one fact in this case which is absolutely certain.....Fife Symington is not nor ever has been a Mormon.

He did come to regret his frivolous first response but we can only speculate as to why his change of heart.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: December 14, 2015 07:30PM

Perhaps a NDE that may have catapulted him into speaking the whole truth, and only the truth of a matter.

At least that's what some NDE survivors say about going to the other side and returning. They have a propensity to telling the truth instead of fudging it.

Or just getting older? He was eight years older from when he first observed them to admitting the sighting he witnessed was something more than military flares.

Maybe not as much to prove in terms of political correctness, if he wasn't concerned with losing votes as in running for public office.

I don't see him as having anything to gain for telling what he saw if only for telling the truth as he recalled it, the second time around. And the fact that the military told him "no comment," including during his tenure as the governor.

Their non-response to the governor definitely begs the question.

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Posted by: petra ( )
Date: December 14, 2015 11:58AM

In the same year my husband and i both saw a huge light in the sky. Both in a different country, him in Sweden, me in the Netherlands. It is until now one of the most beautiful things i have seen and i wish i could see it again. It was not scary, i dont know what it was, it just made enough of an impression on both of us that in the year after we met we mentioned it to eachother. Was it alien? I dont know, and am not really interested in knowing what it was, i just loved the beauty of it

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Posted by: omreven ( )
Date: December 14, 2015 01:10PM

I remember the lights. I remember talking about how odd they were (if we're talking about the same thing), but there was an airport nearby, a small airport, not the Phoenix airport, so we were thinking that was just planes trying to land, but it was strange enough to cause question. There are YouTube clips and people sent video to the news that were far more defined than what we saw, and I just don't buy what the explanation was.

My stepmother is a nonMormon, bible-thumping Christian who really gets into some of this conspiracy theory stuff. Some of the things she posts on FB or links she sends are head-scratching.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: December 14, 2015 07:00PM

The Phoenix Lights Explained (Again)

BY TONY ORTEGA

"UFOS MAKE GREAT RATINGS, so it isn’t surprising that NBC’S Dateline aired a special on Sunday, May 18, entitled 10 Close Encounters Caught on Tape. To its credit, the NBC program at least made an attempt to provide prosaic explanations for each of the events it presented. In most cases, those explanations were actually pretty good, and the “UFO experts” for the most part came off as yahoos.

But when I realized that they were saving “the #1 UFO event caught on tape!” for last — the lame Phoenix Lights, the 1997 event that I helped debunk years ago as a reporter in Arizona, I prepared myself for yet another time that so-called journalists wouldn’t get even the most basic facts right. I wasn’t disappointed.

For starters, there were two separate events on the night of March 13, 1997 over the skies of Arizona. The mysterious “vee” configuration of lights that so many people across the state witnessed was seen over Prescott at about 8:15 p.m. and traveled south to Phoenix at about 8:30 and then passed over Tucson at 8:45. That’s 200 miles in thirty minutes which means the vee was moving at about 400 miles per hour. Some early eyewitnesses perceived that it was high in the sky, others swore it was low and moving very slowly. (And I mention “early” purposely. As the months passed, more and more elaborate — and ridiculous — claims were made by eyewitnesses who were clearly trying to one-up each other.) As I’ve pointed out many times, the eyeball is a poor instrument for judging the altitude of point sources of light in a night sky. Simple physics, however, suggests the vee was high in the sky and moving very fast, even if it looked like it was moving slowly due to the altitude.

computer illustration
This kind of image is widely assumed to be the “vee” or first incident.
It actually shows the later flares. (This is a digital recreation.)
The images of the Phoenix Lights presented on the web further confuse the fact that two different incidents happened. The first incident, the original “vee,” passed overhead with almost no one photographing or filming it. Only one video seems to exist, and since it was shot of an overhead object it does not show a cityscape. This film was never promoted by UFO enthusiasts, perhaps because it doesn’t show the famous optical illusion of the “dark triangle.”
Most of the photos and video of the lights were taken of the second incident — the flares — as people came out in response to the first. These images show the flares in an arc over the Phoenix cityscape, which is sometimes confused with the earlier, overhead “vee.”
As I first revealed in the Phoenix New Times, a young man with a 10-inch Dobsonian telescope, Mitch Stanley, spotted the vee from his backyard, and saw that it was a formation of airplanes. Using a magnification of 60X — which essentially put him 60 times closer to the vee than people only using their naked eyes — Stanley could see that each light in the sky was actually a double, with one light under each squarish wing. The planes still looked small in his scope — suggesting they were flying at high altitude — and he didn’t know what type they were. But there was no doubt, he told me, that they were planes.

After his sighting, Stanley tried to contact a Phoenix city councilwoman who was making noise about the event, as well as a couple of UFO flim-flam men working the local scene, but he was rebuffed. I was the first reporter to talk to him, and, as a telescope builder myself, I made a thorough examination of his instrument and his knowledge of it. (For the inexperienced: a Dobsonian telescope is much easier to move than the typical department store scope; it’s child’s play for an experienced observer like Stanley to get a good look at passing planes at altitude.) And he had a witness: he had told his mother, who was standing nearby, that the lights were planes. After my story, the Arizona Republic also found his story credible and wrote about it.

On the night of March 13, news of the 8:30 pm sighting traveled fast, so a large number of people were outside with video cameras when the second and unrelated event, at about 10 pm, happened in the sky southwest of Phoenix. A string of lights appeared in the sky, and slowly sank until they disappeared behind the nearby Estrella Mountain range. This was later shown to be a string of flares dropped by the Maryland Air National Guard over the North Tac military range. Dr. Lynne Kitei, featured prominently on the Dateline program, can repeat all she wants to NBC and other media that these lights were magical and “intelligent” and later showed up just outside her living room window, but the videotapes taken that night by many people show without a doubt that this was a string of mundane lights that fell and disappeared behind the range, exactly as a string of flares dropped by the military planes would have.

The problem developed later when people conflated reports of the two sightings. For the many people who had seen the earlier vee pass directly over their heads, the explanation of the flares made no sense whatsoever. News organizations didn’t differentiate between the two events or report on the Stanley identification — even the Republic stopped referring to its earlier solid reporting on the Lights and began promoting it as “unexplained.”

To this day, programs like Dateline invariably question people who saw the earlier “vee” event, and quote them saying that flares couldn’t possibly explain what they saw. They are right. They didn’t see flares, they saw a formation of planes. Dateline repeatedly showed people talking about their memories of the 8:30 vee while showing video of the 10 pm flares. Talk about misleading.

There was at least one person who videotaped both the 8:30 vee and the later event. I saw his tape myself. It clearly showed the five lights of the 8:30 vee moving in relation to each other, exactly as you’d expect in a formation of airplanes.

As for the people who swore they saw a black triangular shape joining the five lights of the vee, that’s a classic contrast effect of the human eye. In a very telling case, a man who swore he saw a black shape joining the lights of the vee saw it pass directly in front of the moon. At that point, he saw not a black shape but wavy lines pass over the undimmed moon. But rather than conclude that he’d seen the contrails of planes, the man, whose perception had already been heavily influenced by the UFO explanation concluded instead that the pilot of the alien craft had turned his spaceship transparent right at that moment so the man could see the moon through it. How convenient!"



http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/08-05-21/

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Posted by: Curious2no ( )
Date: December 14, 2015 09:34PM

I saw them. We were heading home from a kids baseball game. My husband noticed them first. He had been pilot of small engine planes and payed attention to plane lights.

He commented immediately that they were not correct formation for plane lights...too many and too low. Definitely did not look like flares. Too stable.

I have no explanation.

Love it being a bit of a mystery.

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Posted by: pathdocmd ( )
Date: December 15, 2015 01:53PM

The pilot who dropped the flares has said publically they were illumination flares. I realize that won't be good enough for conspiracy theorists.

Flares are very stable in the air, especially if there is little wind. They float in the air because they have a parachute that acts like a hot air balloon. The hot air from the flair rises and keeps it floating in place.

Here is a video that shows that the lights appeared from right to left and then burned out from right to left, just as you would expect from illumination flares that all burn about the same length of time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QyIxT5L6_o

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Posted by: Shummy ( )
Date: December 15, 2015 02:33PM

Well gee thanks for that totally plausible explanation.

Now I wonder if you would be so kind as to offer an explanation as to why the fuck illumination flares were needed at that particular place and time.

I'm willing wait but I won't be holding my breath.

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Posted by: pathdocmd ( )
Date: December 15, 2015 02:35PM

The pilot said he just wanted to "get rid of them" before heading back to base. I don't know if that was for fun or if it made someone's job easier if he got rid of them. He certainly picked a bad place and time to do it.

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Posted by: Shummy ( )
Date: December 15, 2015 03:03PM

Well I'd have to agree with your last sentence if that be the case.

Nevertheless, I'd have to say that whole alibi scenario is pretty lame.

I will say however, at least it wasn't blamed on swamp gas or the old tried and true weather balloon story.

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Posted by: sonoma ( )
Date: December 15, 2015 04:34PM

So aliens travel an impossible distance from their own world to ours in order to do a light show over a minor city, and then go home?

An idea so logical that even a Mormon prophet could come up with it.

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Posted by: strangeloop ( )
Date: December 15, 2015 05:57PM

Don't forget at an impossible speed, no less!

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: December 16, 2015 12:34AM

and don't forget the anal probing.

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Posted by: eastmesagal ( )
Date: December 20, 2015 07:32PM

The "vee" flew directly over my house and I happened to be standing in the backyard with two aerospace guys (one my husband.) Their immediate opinion was that it was military aircraft.

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Posted by: azsteve ( )
Date: December 21, 2015 01:29AM

I remember seeing the Phoenix lights and momentarily thinking how strange they were. I even pointed them out to some friends, saying "anyone know what those lights are?". No one seemed to care. But there is an international airport here. No one was freaking out, and nothing about it on tv. Everyone who should have been concerned said nothing while this was happening. You would expext tv and radio everywhere to be in a panic coverage if anything was wrong. So I figured that the military or some government agency was doing something that did't concern me. It's kind of like if you come to an intersection where there is construction going on and police are directing traffic. You don't ask yourself if anything suspicious is going on or if the police are real police. You just move on. In the back of my mind though, I also knew that there were people somewhere who would make a big deal about it if there was not a good explanation. Sure enough, they did.

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