I met a few the last time I attended the morg, before transitioning out for the last time.

One of my sisters-in-law is admittedly a "Cultural Mormon." Her whole family are LDS, and she can't see herself being anything else even though she has her doubts and misgivings about church authenticity.

Her husband, my brother on the other hand, is so devoutly LDS he is the stake missionary where they reside, and as devoted to the church as they come. Under his tutelage his children were gagged and bound to the morg whether they wanted to be or not. One has broke free, the others are still wrapped up in their tightly woven cocoons.

Anyone else here was or is admittedly still a "Cultural Mormon?" I tried for awhile the last time I attended, but couldn't do it, so for that and other reasons we left when our family did years ago.

My extended family's a mixed bag of those who still believe, and others like me who figured it out for themselves. Thank God we're not alone on that side of the fence!

:)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2015 11:24AM by amyjo.

Like you, I tried it for a while -- but it's really not possible. You can't just go along, attending Easter and Christmas services, the annual fundraiser and life cycle events.

You've got the visiting/home teachers harassing you every month, the kid coming by for fast offerings, the annual tithing settlement. Forget about attending any weddings, 'cause you don't have a temple recommend. If you do, you lied to get it.

You'll be "called" to do something. If the bishop senses that you lack a testimony, you'll find yourself teaching Sunday School (or Primary or whatever it is these days) or something. If he thinks you're a lost cause, it will be some kind of drudgery. And you'll be a visiting or home teacher, without doubt, assigned to a companion who will have been selected to help boost your testimony. You'll visit other inspiring people in the ward.

And, really, what is the "culture" of Mormonism? In cultural terms, it's pretty much mediocre white-bread middle America.

@drq,

Sorry this might be off topic, but you mentioned if a bishop suspects you lack a testimony he'll assign you to sunday school/primary. Is that really the case? Could you elaborate?

Just speaking from my experience. The idea is that, if you have to prepare and teach "gospel lessons" every week, then you'll develop a testimony of the truthfulness of what you teach. The spirit will witness, etc.,through all of those bright, shining faces.

From a psychological standpoint, it's pretty effective, as most people can't deal with the cognitive dissonance of teaching something they don't believe. However, in my case, I dealt with it by no longer teaching it.

I remember hearing more than once that you were called to positions so that you could "grow" which is why you so frequently see someone with appalling math skills called as ward clerk.

A bit of an oxymoron, your thread title, is it not?

Truthfully, I have always loathed the Mormon lifestyle and have always instinctively avoided anything that reeks of Marmunism.

Would you believe it's a term actually classified enough to be defined on Wikipedia? Here it is, which is basically all I meant by it when I wrote the OP.

"Cultural Mormon is a term used for Mormons who no longer believe some, or many, of the doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), but who self-identify as Mormon."

Cultural Mormon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_MormonWikipedia

I first heard it from Sterling McMurrin in a philosophy course at the U of U. I thought it was intellectually lazy.

I first heard it used as an active TBM, by others self-identifying as Cultural Mormons. They were in a way trying to keep other people active church goers by sharing that as a way to say "if it works for me maybe it will for you too."

Only it didn't, and it doesn't based on what I know.

One woman who shared that with me soon after her husband left her for an active TBM who wasn't a "cultural mormon." She married someone else, perhaps with her "inferior" beliefs than his. It's still a class based system of shunning for people like them. Both held leadership positions, but she was seen as the "weaker" of the two.

there is an intellexual elite who are only cultural mormons? perhaps some professionals or business owners or employees who are xultural mormons working in their "market niche" as service providers ? possibly to lds community or living within tbm networks? Do you think this is possible or even generational (ie occurring among very old professionals not just the young?)

is it possible that part of the initial zion settlers were just cultural mormons who wanted the land, sponsors and avoiding european poverty? do these old persons look upon their younger family that became tbm quizically?

It's quite possible.

When visiting southern Utah last winter I met some who were in name, rank & serial status for business opportunities. Some remarked without outright confessing themselves to be "in name only," by mentioning without the hooplah that it "paid" to be LDS in a mostly LDS business world - with the right connections and all.

Plus, I talked to some non- or never Mormons there who concurred (and in some online chat forums about job ops in the region,) that to be a Mormon made lots of difference when getting promoted within companies there. So it's a network of sorts to have right connections for marketing oneself.

For self employed and the enterpreneurial maybe not as much, it seems more noticeable in the health industry, educational arena like the local public & secondary schools, and for the larger employers in the market, including local government.

Yeah, and as for early pioneers or immigrants on the Mormon wagon trail, not sure either what they were expecting to find or that anyone gave them a "hands up," because they were newbies in a strange land. They all had to strike out on their own, and there was no safety net to catch them if they slipped through the cracks.

My great great grandfather joined the church in Wales and made the move to Utah by way of New Orleans. He was a tailor by trade. His first assignments once in Utah was to fight in the Mormon Militia, and then he was able to marry to a daughter of a polygamist family to settle in Ogden where he raised a large family. He would leave the church for personal reasons in the years before he passed away, but then it was just considered being an inactive. He didn't denounce Mormonism, he simply detached from it. Not sure what that was about, because he didn't leave an explanation for his bio. Mormon Utah historians don't include that about him, that's known only to our family. He had a falling out somewhere but that's about all I know as to what might've happened.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2015 09:10PM by amyjo.

I would be a cultural or NOM if I could. I have lots of friends who are "cafeteria" catholics and it seems really nice for them. They identify as Catholic but never usually attend outside of family events. I could see myself attending Mormon church (only sacrament meeting) during December for Christmas and maybe Easter. And I could really see myself defending Mormons from some of the posters on this site.

But it's just impossible to do this in the Mormon church. If you're not hardcore you are a second-class church member! The primary problem for me has been missing almost all my siblings weddings because I didn't want to make the effort to get a temple recommend! There was no way I was going to sit outside the temple during the wedding so I would tell my family I had a work "emergency." Eventually however they saw through that excuse and I got alot of harsh judgmental altitude from them!

Now that I have three kids I've wanted to attend occasionally just so my kids could relate to their cousins and also so they don't become the "evil" branch of the family. But because of the lay local clergy if we don't contribute and accept a calling the members would look at us as freeloaders.. (Of course it goes without saying that I would never pay a full tithing! NO WAY!)

The other problem is that you can't just attend occasionally without getting a ton a visits and calls from members and missionaries for the next few years! I went back to church a few times a few years ago because my parents were coming out to visit and I got a lot of visits for months afterward from the church wondering why I hadn't been back. I wasn't annoyed by the visits, they were always nice and very sincere, I just always said I was busy and would call them back, but I kind of felt bad leading them on.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2015 12:05AM by zero.

Thanks for sharing that. I haven't lived in a Mormon culture since moving away from Idaho. But am considering retiring to Utah, so that may be something I'll have to contend with when I do. Will need to be polite but firm both with family and neighbors who may take an interest in re-converting me back.

Since I worship at Jewish services now, I have a fall back plan. Only busy bodies would not respect my choice of religion.

There are cultural Jews also, who identify as Jewish just because that's what they were born, but don't actually practice or worship as one.

For me being able to trade a strongly defined cultural identity from Mormonism to Judaism has helped me in the sense I don't feel rudderless without a paddle. Not that I ever did. Even before I got more into Judaism I still didn't feel connected anymore to Mormonism. But the culture well that's just something we were born into and grew up with whether we wanted to identify with it or not. It was who we were - growing up in the Idaho Morridor it was predominantly LDS, and that was the filter we were taught to see the world through.

Unlearning that is in some ways been more difficult than leaving the cult. I'm still basically a conservative in my approach to life. Not in politics, but in an open laissez-faire society I still identify with conservative values I had from being raised LDS despite being more accepting of diversity in the world around me.

I grew up in Utah but went totally inactive about three months after my mission back in the 90's. On my mission I had lost my faith in the supernatural. The Sunday after my homecoming I transferred my membership records to the student ward at the Utah state school I was attending. I went to church for a few months to see if the "RM" factor would get the ladies, but I soon realized that was another myth. I also kind of realized that I wouldn't want to date a girl who placed such a high importance on being an RM because I knew then I would never be a hardcore TBM.

The problem was that I still lived at home and so every Sunday I would have to put on my Sunday clothes and "head out to church" for my parents benefit. I usually would hang out at Barnes and Noble for a few hours and then go back home. I did that for all my undergrad degree so, as you can imagine, it was such a relief to go out of state for grad school. So much better! And I've deliberately haven't lived in Utah since!

Even though I never directly voiced my disbelief in the church, over the years it became apparent to my family that I was inactive. This of course has been a source of tension. In my 20's I thought the tension would lesson over the years, but unfortunately as kids have come it's only gotten worse. Hence the reason I've been on RfM recently. My siblings either are or have stay-home-moms who live in the relief society bubble and as they have had their own kids they have only gotten more hardcore in enforcing the TBM line.

I'm a normal upstanding person, but solely because I don't believe in all the crazy LDS crap I'm considered the black sheep of the family! Unbelievable really! You'd think that mormons would be a little more understanding of people who can't swallow all of their crazy crap!

Anyway, even though I don't believe in the supernatural I'd be way open to being a cultural Mormon and attending SM occasionally and family members weddings, baby blessing, and mission farewells/homecomings. But the church makes this impossible! The arbitrary wedding attendance rule is the big thing, but you really can't even attend a baby blessing without it being awkward as to whether an inactive should stand in the circle.

Of course the church deliberately makes it this way!

You have been the whole gamut, and remind me a little of myself though I didn't go on a mission, and have never held a temple recommend. (Never had that strong of a desire to see the inside of the temple to be honest, though I did baptisms for the dead as a teenager - now looking back on that it seems creepy too.)

I wasn't able to live the double life either. With TBM brothers standing in for my children's names and blessings, looking back I realize now I was detaching from the church slowly over the course of my adult life. Once I did the research and discovered the lies we'd been taught that pretty much sealed the deal for me to make my way out.

Now I wouldn't go back if they paid me to. The more time and distance you have between you and the church, the easier it becomes to finally feel free from that ball and chain.

Yes, I know several, very personally, who stay in for the culture and for their families. One even teaches early morning seminary.

The way I look at it is that if they feel that's what's best for them, then I'm glad that they're there. Especially if they work with the youth. They can help the youth not be so hard on themselves. I wish I'd had people like them when I was in high school. I lived feeling so guilty, down on myself, and introverted.

And one has two kids who are completely inactive and the nice thing for them is that at least one of their parents could care less. They are more concerned about their kids' character and that they are good people.

I honestly don't know how they do it sometimes, but I don't have to walk in their shoes, so I try not to judge their decisions.

These types don't scare me as much as the ones who are still completely fooled and indoctrinated the whole nine yards.

The ones who can still look you/me/us in the eye and say without a doubt in their hearts they "know the church is true, Joe Smith was a prophet," and all the corresponding baloney that goes with that.

The idea of that type of person teaching my children would worry me far more than someone with doubts or misgivings.

I'd like to ask of them, where have they been all these years? I know the answer to that, and that is they haven't allowed room for inquiry or investigation into what they claim to be absolute truths.

That is frightening to me most of all, not to be able or open enough to question the source of their understanding.

I'm a cultural/ethnic/unorthodox Mormon. It's difficult but doable as long as you can do things in accordance with your preparedness and comfort level

Well you have my sympathies, and congratulations for being able to pull it off then as well as you do.

Is it a permanent arrangement for you, or only temporary born of necessity to preserve family relations?

It's temporary because of a need to wean myself from it. Leaving now would leave a social and spiritual void in my life that I wouldn't be able to fill

Have you looked for/are you looking for anything else? It's difficult to see how it could fill a spiritual void when you don't believe in it. It's more than likely that it is causing that spiritual void you are afraid of -- but you're so used to it that you don't recognize it.

As for social void -- I have to say the same thing. While I certainly was overwhelmed with activities as a Mormon and had relationships with many people, none of them was satisfying, because they were all based on an inauthentic version of myself.

Leaving was what filled the social and spiritual void authentically.

Just something to think about.

I find this interesting by virtue that for me I had a spiritual void as an active TBM. There was something missing, but I couldn't identify it other than a spiritual vacuum at the core of my spirituality, in the depths and the recesses in fact. I noticed it mostly in my alone time, and it was cavernous. That was frightening in fact to experience that feeling of emptiness because of a lack of spirituality driving my faith.

For as religioso as Mormonism touts it is, it is a superficial religion. It's answers are overly simplistic and besides false teachings, therefore heretical which also added to the spiritual vacuum I would feel inside at times, its black and white teachings really provided no depth of knowledge, philosophy, or even theology in its understanding. It was a series of rote memorizations and repeating the mantras over and over like in fast and testimony meetings, and other church services where people including the youngest of children get up to recite how they "know it's all true, and JS is a prophet, and stands right next to God the Father and the son, Yeshua in the heavenly courts on high." Blah, blah, blah.

How rote can it get? :)

It took some time, but I finally identified the problem wasn't my faith or lack thereof, it was the heresy of the church itself that in essence helped to create the "black hole" in my soul, that was remiss until I finally left there.

I haven't felt it since leaving, but am reminded just remembering how awful it felt to be so void spiritually from a pseudo religion aka cult that deprived me of a genuine faith built on understanding and wisdom.

A friend at synagogue this morning introduced me to a life changing book for her called "The Garden of Emunah." It's about finding meaning for our lives and to keep the focus on ourselves, because we can't live someone else's life we can only live our own. It also goes into reincarnations as a means of being perfected through various lives, because there's only so much we can learn in each incarnation before we are called to our eternal homes, and then may be sent back to finish some lesson that's still unlearned. It has helped her accept her non-religious husband, and her autistic twins better instead of feeling the need to rescue or reform anyone else around her, she keeps the focus on her own journey.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2016 02:18PM by amyjo.

...Is there a difference between a "cultural Mormon" and a Jack Mormon? Two terms for the similar thing? I gather the term "jack Mormon" varies, especially over the past decades--or generations.

and just to muddy up the thread further, are the terms "inactive" and "apostate" relevant here? I suppose we need to consider that differences may be matters of both substance (quality) and degree (quantity).

As I understand the term, a "jack Mormon" is someone who still identifies as Mormon, but does not attend church, does not observe the WoW, doesn't pay tithing, etc.

A "cultural Mormon" does not believe in the doctrines, but still identifies as Mormon and observes the forms as tradition and culture. So, one believes (or claims to) but doesn't live it, one lives it but doesn't believe it.

"Inactive" means just that - doesn't attend church or participate in other activities. May or may not observe the forms. Jack Mormons are inactive, but not all inactive Mormons are jack Mormons.

Apostates publicly repudiate the church and no longer identify as Mormon. That would be us.

You summed that up nicely!

My parents were "Jack" Mormons. My dad believed in parts of it up until he died, but had become completely inactive.

My mom fully believed (she'd been the convert,) up to when she died. Both their respective later in life spouses were also "Jack" Mormons, because they didn't attend either, but didn't denounce Mormonism outright like many if not most of us do who are considered "apostates."

I don't consider myself any of the above now that I've had my records removed, other than identifying with the Mormons if only for the simple reason they were all I knew in my formative years and early life. That's my heritage talking.

Will always feel an affinity for the people, even as I've left the church itself. It was a different time and generation to be from growing up in the Morridor when I did, but that will always be a part of who I am no matter what else I might aspire to or become.

I know several cultural Mormons. In every case that I know of where the cultural Mormon is married, it works because both spouses seem to be on the same page.

I actually tried to be a cultural Mormon or NOM before I left the church. I thought it would be easiest on my TBM husband and family. But I found it to be much too difficult. My TBM husband saw any effort on my part to mean that I was over my apostate phase and wanted to completely immerse myself in Mormonism again. I wasn't able to participate at a level I was comfortable with because there was always a push for me to do more than I wanted. It was easier to be completely out than half way in.

I think Mormonism is one of those religions where it's impossible to just dip your feet in the water. If you try to dip your feet in an LDS pool, there's someone already in the water trying to persuade you to jump in. If you refuse to jump in, they just splash you with water until you're fed up. It's just easier to forget the whole thing, pull your feet out of the water and rest in a lounge chair far away from the pool.

Exactly. :)

Like the old Mormon adage was fond of repeating itself in many a Sacrament meeting: you can't be "lukewarm." That is so true in so many ways about being Mormon. You either are or aren't.

For those who can pull it off, though it be a fine line they walk, more power to them.

I couldn't do it, though I tried for a time. But that's when I knew I was already out, my feet just needed to follow my heart.

:)

"Is there is an intellexual elite who are only cultural mormons? "

Yes -- they are the ones who eventually are excommunicated because they fool themselves into believing that there is room for disagreement and debate.


"Perhaps some professionals or business owners or employees who are xultural mormons working in their "market niche" as service providers ?"

Absolutely, but those are not an "intellectual elite." I see no reason to think that it's generational.


"is it possible that part of the initial zion settlers were just cultural mormons who wanted the land, sponsors and avoiding european poverty?"

Not among the initial settlers, no. There were no sponsors. They were on their own. They had no expectation of avoiding poverty. They had no idea of what they were getting into.

Even later, after the Perpetual Emigration Fund was set up, it was only enough to fund their trip across the U.S. Sponsors came later, and even then, it was only enough to get them over here. According to my father, my great-greatgrandfather only sponsored families with marriageable daughters. That's how he built his harem.

If what they wanted was to emigrate to the U.S., there was no need to become Mormon to do that. They could just immigrate.

I was only mormon because I thought I had to be. Mormonism was never kind to me. In fact, my ex tells people I was never happy mormon. I wasn't. I'm not social. I went because I believed. Once I knew I didn't have to, I was glad to never have to attend another meeting again. None of my family could ever be cultural mormons and, for that reason, the majority are out.

My older sister is the only one with her foot still in the door. Her husband is very mormon (thought wasn't as a teen) and she attends SM with him and then drives around drinking her diet coke and eating a candy bar. It is her little treat on Sundays. This new policy has been very troubling for her and not just because my ex is gay and my kids have a gay father, but because her son has a gay son who is 14 years old. This grandson's uncle is also gay. Her 3 children and all her grandchildren are not mormon.

I do have a disabled brother who is still mormon. A lot of the mormons in my parents old ward are good to him, which I'm grateful for. Many of them aren't.

But of all the grandchildren and great grandchildren, my daughter is the ONLY TBM amongst them all. We aren't the type of people who can pretend to be anything and we are all NOT SOCIAL. Even my daughter, who everyone thinks is social, will call me and have meltdowns about her social anxieties.

I don't know any cultural mormons. All the mormons I know are TBM in every possible way.

I think there was a time when Mormonism was a culture. Those days are long gone and now Mormonism is a religion.

In my youth over 50 years ago, the chapel was a centerpiece of many small or rural communities.

The "cultural hall" was just that. Plays, movies, dinners, weddings (back when temples were few and far between), scout events, dances (without a recommend), rummage sales, bake sales, our cultural hall was used for school assemblies because the school didn't have a place large enough.

Lots of people were inactive, or just plain never went to church in decades, but showed up for community events.

There were many "inactive" people that pitched in to help widows, needy, or those affected by a tragedy.

I can't address the larger cities.

Over time these things went away. Now we have an empty shell.

+1 That is my experience as well. The bazaars, the road shows, the breakfasts, the hayrides, the Gold and Green balls and teen dances, learning to dance at Mutual . . .

There was a culture. The only culture the Mormons have now is about he same as the culture you would find in a petri dish.

"Cultural" Mormon? I don't think that there is such a thing. Maybe Cultural "Utah" Mormon. Otherwise you are simply a lapsed Mormon or Jack Mormon or inactive. Mormonism does not allow one to be a "cultural" member, as others have pointed out. Unlike cafeteria Catholics or non observant Jews, Mormons are always hounded to be more involved rather than being welcomed to participate at the level at which they choose.

Growing up in the mission field, I related more to the culture and customs of my region - the South, in my case - than any associated with the church. I think this may be true for other mormons from the mission field. I was 4th generation TBM from the South, so church did come first for us. To the majority Baptist communities surrounding us, we did our perceived "weird Mormon things": morning seminary, dressing modestly, no partaking of coffee or tea (if you don't drink iced tea in the South, you are immediately suspect), no going out to eat after church on Sunday as all the Baptists did.

But we did not revere pioneer ancestors, nor did we descend from polygamous unions. We didn't put Austrian draperies in our street-facing picture windows (just like in the temple's celestial room!), we didn't use Jello for unauthorized purposes, and had no clue what "fry sauce" was.

To me, and I've lived in the morridor and the South, the above things are what make "culture". In my experience, I was as Mormon as my Utah counterparts but had no common cultural experiences with them - we simply shared a religion - and a peculiar religion, at that.

Just came across this "Golden Oldie" thread from not quite five years ago, on what does it mean to be a "Cultural Mormon."

Not a lot changes in five years. Just the names and faces.

:)

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,282396,282396#msg-282396

Is there anything else other than social or cultural Mormons? There aren't many Ultra Mormons these days. Most of you born into the Church were trained to lie and repeat mantras from an early age. You were taught that saying the right things and looking the part brought success in the Mormon Social Club. The definition of Pharisaism.

I met a full time missionary in England back in 1997, who, because I was less active, disfellowshipped, and not living the gospel, confided in me that he had never obeyed the rules and had continued to enjoy sexual activity both before and during his mission. (For those who think that can't be possible, believe me it is.) He asked me why I was stupid enough to have confessed and admit failure to the Bishop. He said that he would never confess sins to anyone because I quote: 'My Church membership is way too important to me!!'