Next time a mormon uses the "coffee has tannic acid in it and tannic acid is used to tan leather, do you want the stuff that tans leather inside you?" defense, you could point out the following about leather tanning...

Commercial leather you buy in stores is tanned with chromic acids…very toxic and makes inferior leather.....coffee doesn't have chromic acids in it so that won't be inside me.

Hides can also be tanned by soaking them in tannic acids derived from tree barks and certain plants.....tree barks and plants have many useful properties, so I don't mind having them inside me....if I don't ingest too much, I'll be fine.....same goes for any other plant extract or herbal suppliment.

You can make soft, washable leather with emulsified oils and woodsmoke. This is commonly known as brain, smoke or Indian tanning. Animal brains are traditionally used as the source of emulsified oils, hence the name, but you can also use eggs or a mixture of soap and oil.....brains are used to tan leather and I will take all of those I can get....and I'll use the ones I have to decide if coffee is bad for me.

Then tell them to go try a cup and think about it using their brain.

that short of posion or something that would burn on the way down (sulfuric acid) there's really not much you could put in your stomach that would be potentially any more harmful than what's already in it.

The tannic acid used to tan leathers is different than the tannins found in some caffeinated beverages.

"While 'tannic acid' is a specific type of 'tannin' (plant polyphenol), the two terms are sometimes (incorrectly) used interchangeably. The long standing misuse of the terms, and its inclusion in scholarly articles have compounded the confusion. This is particularly widespread in relation to green tea and black tea. Although tea contains tannin and various types of polyphenols, "contrary to widespread belief, tea does not contain tannic acid." -- wikipedia


"Plant polyphenols are generically known as ‘‘tannins’’ (14).
These are perceived in general as toxic compounds (37), perhaps because of their ability to precipitate proteins. This property, called ‘‘astringency’’ in a chemical sense, was taken advantage of clinically in former times, when tannic acid
ointment was used to treat superficial burns. It is very important to note, however, that tea tannins are chemically different
from other plant tannins and in no way conform to descriptions
of tannic acid (37, 47). "

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC162950/pdf/392375.pdf

of course, this argument will be told to you by a diabetic mormon drinking a soda.

If I submerge my head in a big bucket of water I can drown. Would I want to drink that stuff?

this was a big fight I had with my Ex-MIL, and nobody could EVER tell me why she could guzzle hot choc like no tomorrow but I couldn't have sweet iced tea.

The WOW has nothing to do with health and everything to do with blind obedience, as demonstrated by ... was it Primus? recently with his EQ talk.

I wish more noms/fencesitters in a teching position would give talks like that. It always bothered me to my core that Mormons couldn't be honest with themselves. I wish they'd recognize that the WoW, HT/VT and tons of other morg requirements are nothing more than obedience tests for the sake of obedience.

@caveman ... you reminded me of the time I told a youth class that one glass of red wine is actually healthy for you. Never got a report back from the leadership.

I heard that as well, even from diabetics or those prone to diabetes who drink soda by the caseload, and the only time they drink water was when it was in that shot glass at church. It just shows that the WoW is only a sign of obedience, not health.

Don't look for logic in religion.

The WOW was just invented by Joseph Smith because he thought religions with dietary and behavioral restrictions had more gravitas. He was just trying to recreate a set of kosher laws for his newly invented religion.

Why anyone pays the slightest attention to it is astonishing.

The first time the missionaries told me about the WoW my first thoughts were that Joe made that part up to placate his wife who was tired of making coffee and cleaning up after the tobacco users.

Emma was tired of cleaning up tobacco spit so he made that rule but he resented it and made the no tea and coffee to get back at her. :)

Just like any question about the church comes down to testimony, the church will be the first to tell you that the word of wisdom is just about obedience, even if the lord has not yet revealed why he has banned certain things that are proven to not be harmful.

Uh....what about phosphoric acid...or ANY acid in soda????

And tannic is so bad because?????????

It probably has the same or even less acidity than the acid in soda.....

And tannic acid is in tea????

Tannins are in tea, not tannic acids.

As my toxicologist friend repeats on a regular basis- It's all about the dose.

"The inside surface of your stomach replaces itself every so many days. You can't tan it." Poor little Mormon! They didn't like THAT!

Look moron, we really don't need to defend ourselves on the "why" we don't eat certain products, fact is statistically Mormons tend to live 10 years longer than the average person. It is true there may not be "tanic acid" in coffee, doesn't really matter, it is our guideline of health and we will follow it.

while this article does indeed say Mormon's live longer, it isn't 10 years.

http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/06/mormons-in-america-live-longer-than.html

But if you have to live within the confines of the beliefs of a cult, who would want to live longer? It probably seems like 10 years.

Yeah, I'll take a few years off my life in exchange for my Sundays back. Subjectively, I come out ahead.

Not that I drink, smoke, or drink coffee... Let's see, that green tea is shortening my life then?

Not!

In fact, if you folks consumed coffee and tea in moderation as well as actually following the eating meat sparingly part you'd probably live even longer.

Someone in the mormon bubble read half the info on tannins and ran screaming, "it's true, its true, the church is true!"

bummer though. If coffee was poisonous it still don't make anybody's church "true" just like maria pointed out.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2011 08:01PM by AmIDarkNow?.

Tannic acid reminds Mormons of the Tanners thus producing a bad taste in their mouths about the truth.

So does that mean grapes are off the table as well? They have more tannin than coffee or tea...just sayin'

As to the origin of the WOW, someone on this site posted this and I'm not taking credit for it, b/c I've been drinking this evening and can't remember who to give credit to...so sorry:

David Whitmer, one of the Book of Mormon "witnesses" said this:

"...quite a little party of the brethren and sisters being assembled in [Joseph] Smith's house. Some of the men were excessive chewers of the filthy weed, and their disgusting slobbering and spitting caused Mrs. Smith (who, Mr. Whitmer insists, was a lady of predisposed refinement) to make the ironical remark that 'It would be a good thing if a revelation could be had declaring the use of tobacco a sin, and commanding its suppression.' The matter was taken up and joked about, one of the brethren suggesting that the revelation should also provide for a total abstinence from tea and coffee drinking, intending this as a counter 'dig' at the sisters. Sure enough the subject was afterward taken up in dead earnest, and the 'Word of Wisdom' was the result." (The Des Moines Daily News, Saturday, October 16, 1886)

I once heard a missionary say that it should be called "Satanic acid," rather than tannic acid, it was so allegedly bad for you.

Dear Jonny the Smoke, you've just made my apologetic/missionary career more difficult in the future if the day comes when I regain a testimony. Now I'll have to overcome this traditional BS that us mishies would throw out on the Word of Wisdom. Well if I regain my testimony it'll first be of the Book of Mormon (i.e. that this racism promoting book is the most correct one on earth + a superior record of the Indians' ancestors) and of that great noble seer of frontier American lore named Joseph Smith who could translate via his seership so accurately the Kinderhook Plates, Book of Abraham papyri, locate the Garden of Eden and find marvelous wonders such as the altar stones at Adam-ondi-Ahman that Adam-God had put there and Zelph the white Lamanite. I really shouldn't blame Joe for any mixups on mesoamerican geography that he, Spencer Kimball, etc. has with DCP, Wade Englund and the FARMS/Maxwell/FAIR crowd of holy apologists. Instead I should blame that resurrected prophet-historian Moroni as if anyone would know the real truth on Mesoamerica it ought to be a resurrected prophet-historian and Joe was just regurgitating what he heard Moroni tell him. That's why whenever the apologists throw out their theories that go against traditional Mormon views they're basically attacking poor Moroni's credibility. Maybe the apologists are correct and if so then these resurrected prophet-historians are generally clueless dopes. It sure helps me better understand what omniscience will really be like in the Celestial Kingdom. At least the RM's in the Celestial Kingdom will at least know the real truth about tannic acid and coffee so they can properly plan their eternal Celestial food diets.

Well, I thought that the argument was always used for tea and not coffee. Regardless, one need only ask what the health qualities of Diet Pepsi are to make it the national drink of Mormons. Even Thomas Monson is hooked on Diet Pepsi. So this can only mean that it has some health benefit over coffee and tea, right. Is it the caffeine? The carbonic acid? The aspartame? The caramel coloring? What, exactly, makes Diet Pepsi such a healthful drink? One might well ask.

It's best just to buck up and inform Mormons, as I've finally started doing, that their leaders haven't the foggiest idea what they're talking about and out of frustration and pure laziness now leave most doctrinal interpretation issues to amateur apologists.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/16/2012 09:03AM by cludgie.

Have them explain what tannic acids are, and how they work, how they play into the leather tanning process, and how that would work in your digestive system. Act really interested and curious.

Why? Because 10 to 1, they don't know a THING about it. They are just spouting something somebody said about coffee. They'll have nothing to say and they'll look really ignorant. You could even google it with them, to get more information.


Or you could just avoid the hassle, and say "Good for you, for being SO concerned about your health. I'll take care of MINE, thank you."

"Don't be stupid. Who ever heard of ANYONE tanning leather with coffee or tea? No one, because coffee and tea don't tan anything except your teeth."

:)

Okay, vis-a-vis tannin and tannic acids:

Only coffee arabica contains tannic acid at 1% or less by volume.

Tea contains tannin but no tannic acid.

Foods that contain a lot of tannic acid are things like

- persimmons (don't tell the Japanese Mormons that persimmons contain so much tannic acid)
- nuts
- strawberries
- other berries
- legumes--one of the most important foods in Mormondom
- chocolate--one of the most important foods in Mormondom
- many popular herbs and spices

Not tea. And almost non-existent in coffee.

The WoW wasn't even taken seriously for decades and wasn't considered either a revelation or a commandment. Today it's just used by mormons to set themselves apart as a special people. They only hit one thing right in it anyway, as tobacco is really the only thing there that is universally not good for you.