So, I've put it out there that I am separated. It sucks! I initiated the separation. So, here is where I am going with this....I feel like I must forgive him in order for me to release myself from the control he still seems to have over me. In church, we are taught a lot about asking for forgiveness from God, and that we should forgive all our trespassers. We are also taught the steps to repentance, which if I remember correctly the first step is to ask for forgiveness. I know he will never ask me for forgiveness for the things he has done to me, but I also know that I need to forgive him...but...easier said than done. Esp when the offender is not asking for forgiveness. I want to forgive him for my own sanity, not due to cult indoctrination. But, it seems I was taught more about how to ask for forgiveness than to grant forgiveness. Thoughts?

Oh heck no. And this comes from someone who has fully seen the value of forgiveness (when the person who has wronged you is truly sorry for what they did.)

IMO what you want to aim for in this case is emotional distance. Don't let your ex rent space in your head. Start creating your own positive life independent of his negative influence. When it comes to your ex, take the Polish attitude, "Not my circus, not my monkeys."

I despise the notion of "forgiveness."

Not a whole heck of a lot of examples of this so-called "forgiveness" in the old testament...

What's best is to forget. Get the people who have hurt you out of your life. When someone brings up his name, say. "who?" and mean it.

And if some day you get word that karma has landed on him with a big ol' thud, say nothing out loud...

Forgiveness is ridiculous when adults are involved. Don't do it. If you do, I will never ...

And it took me a long time to get that far.

I like the idea of Forgiving Others AND of being forgiven;

Who among us doesn't make mistakes that should be resolved?

When you let go of the pain and hurt, you'll be able to say that you forgive him. You'll also feel that a great burden has been lifted from you. Forgiveness is as much for the injured person.

I grew up with a violent alcoholic parent. I finally was able to forgive and see the remarkable individual imprisoned by alcohol abuse. Forgiveness des not mean that you have to be codependent or stay in the relationship. The Boner.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2016 07:20PM by byuboner.

First and foremost, you need to give yourself time, and lots of it! No need to force the issue. You may decide to forgive him, or you may decide to forget him, or you may decide something else altogether. You're in charge here.

this post has dragged me out of long time lurker status. If you ask his forgiveness he will learn nothing. If your ex ia a controller then he is abusive. Walk away, get plenty of distance. there will come the time when you can move on without looking backwards. More important now is loving yourself and respecting yourself. Distance from any kind of abuse, whether spousal or religious will help you achieve that. Good luck. from one who knows, the view sure is good from the other side.

There may be a point where you can say "Yeah, you were a miserable manipulative jerk! But, that's water under the bridge, and you're just not important enough to worry about. So we're good."

Oh, and I forgot the last part:

"But stay the hell away from me!"

extreme forgiveness demands dissociation (put it out of your mind
"forget" about it)! -after abuse, incidents of debasement, physical pain, cruelty causing honest despair if not pain

which is not safe when living with or near unsafety. a coping skill called "dissociation" allows even realatively healthy folks to "numb" or fade or forget pain frequently.

one might not know or even observe that incidents of danger,
or even unfair, let alone cruel and unsafe had been happening
because they had been taught to "forgive and forget"
in toxic childhood + LDS primary imdoctrinating.

so dont forgive too fast
learn from it
observe it dont forget it
so you can self protect from it

you deserve to be safe. remembering may fade rapidly
so observe this situation carefully/ do not, under any
circumstances "forgive and forget" what this person
has done to you.

and do not blame yourself (as abusers taught childhood
abuse & neglect victims they must)
do not let the fact that it is so uncomfortable allow it
to fade into a justifiable haze beyond the now, pain
placed in a hidden uncared for crevice, where one stuffs
all prior pain----- being a "good girl" "good person"
lets not learn from the situational pain, lets forgive
and walk vulnerable

/easy to dupe, to use, to utilize for cruelty mistreatment
all over again.

abused? offense damaging you? financially or physically
accosted? abandoned? betrayed? conned? oh yes-- religious
dogma for convenient woman religious leader in society controls
say forgive 40 timed 7 (mormon bishop say each sin)

good girl just forget about it

I am not that girl anymore.
please protect yourself,please observe & learn
dont just forget about (the pain X caused you)
by "forgiving" it.

one wise friend teacher said to me,----, Forgiveness is
over rated.

I think that forgiveness is important in situations where the relationship is important and worth saving.

If the relationship is not worth saving, then I think that a different approach is likely to bring relief. You need to move on with your life. Close the chapter and try to find true freedom from the person. As someone else on this thread said, don't let this person get into your mind. Your life needs to be about you, not them.

One can forgive another person without even engaging in conversation with that person. One doesn't need to ask for forgiveness to progress either.
There is a lot of great advice here; do take your time.

Haha summer circus..monkeys...sorry that just tickled for some reason...the seriousness of the trauma will have everything to do with how soon the pain eases up...only time can do that and imo its right around two years before it ceases to occupy way too much of your life...my opinion...forgiveness is bs...yes we must move on and the only way to do so is not thinking about it...only time dope or whiskey does that...i dont recommend the last two but in extreme cases...its whatever it takes to get thru another day...often the reason we end up in abusive sitchs is lack of love for ourselves...thats a good thing to learn to do...while that two years passes...refusing to take crap from anyone is the beginning of valuing ourselves...hoping the best for ya

I will continue to co-parent with him. He's an amazing dad but horrible husband. The weight on my shoulders from the years of passive agression, and paraniod interrogation just explode to the surface when I have to interact with him. I was hoping that if I could just forgive him, and move on, this weight would lift and I could endure the minimal amount of time we are together, and not dread having to plan my "next move" around him. Maybe it's too much too soon. I just feel like if I forgave him, whether I told him or not, it would be empowering. But I don't even know where to start that process. I should prob be on a divorce message board, but my mormom upbringing makes me revert back to, "look perfect, act perfect" be nice to everyone always...I don't think many other people understand that kind of conidtioning

Of course churches teach their minions to forgive all offenses. This is not for your mental well being as most believe. To completely forgive with demanding any reciprocity in return simply makes you available for a repeat performance of the abuse.

How many times have you already forgiven this person before you reached the point you could not endure even one more offense against your person? I'd be willing to guess that it's more than seventy times seven.

Anger is the mind's warning signal that an injustice has been committed against yourself or some one or thing that concerns you. The sense of anger usually will not go away by itself until the mind is certain the danger has passed, AND NOT LIKELY TO REOCCUR.

Many times people will say they have "forgiven" a situation when in actual fact they have merely found a convenient compartment within their mind to hide the pain within for the time being. And then, of course, the repeat offender will trigger the old pain with yet more crap and further abuse their victim by saying, "I KNEW it! You have NEVER forgiven me! No WONDER I can't stop doing ...XYZ offense. See? It's YOUR fault!"

I say do not dis-empower yourself with forced "forgiveness" until you're good and ready. And when that day comes, it will happen naturally, all by itself, with zero conscious effort from you. You will see yourself stronger for it, and others will too. As a side benefit you will see those who truly desire your favor will be putting far more effort into doing so ON YOUR TERMS, not theirs.

You have come so far already and without even knowing you or your situation I am proud of you for making a stand for yourself! Don't worry about your sanity for now. It will come out of hiding when the time is right.

As a side note,look up the terms "narcissistic spouse" on the web. I believe you will find a great deal that may pertain to your situation. Doing so changed my daughter's life forever. Good luck to you, ikandee2000.

What Bordergirl wrote is very important! The very first priority is to make the abuse STOP. My older brother beat me, tortured me, and verbally abused me my whole life. I kept being a good little girl and forgiving him, and giving him chance after chance. Then the abuse became sexual. It had to stop.

I learned that my Mormon family would not help me. They denied that there was anything wrong with my brother. They punished me for crying and causing a scene. They were most concerned about keeping up the perfect Mormon family image--we were a GA family.

I get the impression that you own your problem, meaning, you realize that it is UP TO YOU to protect yourself. In my case, after I had children of my own, my brother started abusing them, too, and I had to protect them, as well. Every time the family got together, my brother did something to my children, and do me--every time--without fail--and he got away with it. I ended up with PTSD, and in therapy.

First of all: Make it stop. No price is too high! I couldn't go back home to see my own parents, for many years, because my brother lived with them. That's a big sacrifice. When I could afford it, I had my parents come and visit me at my house, without my brother, and we enjoyed many happy years of that.

Distance yourself. It is better to not speak to the jerk, than to be nice and have him treat you badly in front of your children. You need for your kids to know this is not OK. Maybe you don't have children. If your ex has been physically violent, you absolutely must get a restraining order! It is during the separation and break-up period that men are most likely to attack their spouse. If he is verbally abusive, hang up the phone quickly, or if in person, walk away quickly. Move to another ward, another town, if possible. Move back home, where your parents can protect you.

I remember in a Christian sermon, the Pastor said that you can't really offer someone forgiveness, unless the person asks you to forgive them. Psychopaths and narcissists don't ask for forgiveness. Many feel they have a right to treat their wife any way they please, because a wife is a possession.

Part of my problem in letting go was that the perpetrator got away with what he did to me, my children, and my nieces, and various neighbors. No punishment. There was no acknowledgement that he even did anything bad at all! (My nieces are in their 30's now, overweight, depressed, dropped out of school, both have never had a boyfriend, both say they don't want to get married. My brother would visit them often, staying at their house for two weeks at a time, and the parents thought he was a joke--a funny dirty old man. Abuse has lifetime effects. I don't know how bad your husband was, but you might need therapy.

Many people misinterpret the Bible story about forgiveness, in which Jesus rescues someone from being stoned, and says, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" or something like that. The key sentence is after that, when Jesus tells the sinner, "GO, and sin no more."

1. Your ex must to GO AWAY.

2. He must STOP THE ABUSE.

Jesus didn't marry the sinner. Jesus didn't invite the sinner to come join him with the little children. They didn't become best friends. Jesus said, "GO."

The principle of forgiveness is not about the perpetrator. Psychopaths NEVER CHANGE. That's a fact. Your relationship can't be saved. You can't help anyone but yourself and your kids. For yourself, you need to feel safe. You must keep your own promise to yourself (and your kids) that you will keep yourself FREE FROM ABUSE. Forgiveness is setting yourself free, and putting the abusers out of your life. In America, we lock them in jail. The Law isn't considered wicked or unforgiving.

I had to forgive myself. You might have to forgive yourself, too. Psychopaths put all the blame on the victim. So does the Mormon church, unfortunately. The church will most likely take your husband's side in this. Forgive yourself for marrying him in the first place. Forgive yourself for staying in an abusive situation for so long. Then take the actions necessary to make sure this doesn't happen again.

Forgiveness is moving forward. You can't forget, but you can concentrate on other things, and make sure you continue to put distance and time between you and the jerk.

If nosey people ask if you have forgiven your husband, you can say, "Yes--but I haven't given him the right to be near me."

After all, you aren't hiring a hit-man, you aren't going to slash his tires, or interfere in his life. I think forgiveness can mean that you are not going to try to get even. It's letting go.

And time. I found a wonderful therapist and I forgave him before he asked for forgiveness. Now we are best friends. (He is gay.) He was very emotionally abusive to me for a while and for anyone who thinks (mormon leaders) that there isn't something abusive just by being married to someone who doesn't desire you, they are nuts. It was a very toxic relationship as a married couple.

Now that he doesn't have any control over me (and he wouldn't dare try), we get along great. You will learn to take back your power in time.

But you do have to give it time. You just recently separated. I'd also find a therapist. Keep looking until you find a therapist who helps you as there are plenty who aren't very helpful.

It will get better. It just takes longer than overnight.

I wouldn't call it forgiveness. You have HEALING that needs to be done. It takes TIME.

Do keep yourself and children safe. Have you thought about talking to a therapist? Having a listening ear that is not connected in anyway to the situation, church, etc., can help a lot.

You made the statement that your spouse "is an amazing dad but horrible husband." This was interesting to me to read, and it might be very worthwhile to bring up with a therapist. Could you be missing signals of his interaction with the children because of the relationship between the two of you? I guess I would tend to think that he probably lacks skills in both areas, rather than just in your relationship.

Know that NO PERSON deserves to be treated with abuse, whether it be verbal or physical. Both are harmful, do damage, and need to end.

Sending hugs and encouragement to you. I

I know. The good father, horrible husband dichotomy kept me there a long time. Had it not been for our kid, I would not have stayed so long. He's kind, patient, fun, and spends time with her doing fun outdoor things....And then...He's the opposite with me...mean, impatient, withdraws affection and tries to convince me I am a horrible person. So, our little girl, does not understand why I left. I've told her that time will give her perspective. If I ever felt she was in an unsafe environment with him....I would not even contemplate continued contact with him. I've seen a therapist that was instrumental in helping me leave the church and my husband...you're right, may be time for another appointment. Thank you for the support

I think that the most difficult part of forgiveness when those involved are church members, is that everyone expects you to just forgive and they don't understand why the forgiveness is not quick and automatic. When the wrong-doer ignores their obligation to ask your forgiveness and to help repair any damage they've caused you, that trivializes you as a person and mocks any sense of justice. It also undermines future justice, by tolerating and thus encouraging sociopathy in the future. So fuck the church's teachings on forgiveness. It's not a good thing to obsolve those who do wrong of their mis-deeds until they take steps to earn your forgiveness. I am not perfect either. But I am a far better person than those who have done me wrong. For one, I don't use jesus as a justification to harm others and then claim that they owe me forgiveness.

I saw on an episode of Oprah Winfrey, a principal that works for me. Forgiving someone does not require that you obsolve the person from the wrong doing they did to you. It's an act of love for yourself. For me, I've decided how I will act if certain people show up in my life again (self defensive measures to keep them out), and then move on. But it can still take a while to heal emptionally.

I think it is all confused. In my eyes, forgiveness is about the other person, while healing is about yourself. I don't equate moving on with forgiveness, and I don't think that you are obligated to forgive anyone before you have fully healed. I also don't think they deserve forgiveness or reconciliation if they are not sorry and changing their behavior because that just sets you up for abuse and prices a lack of consequences.

I'm glad we're talking about serious, abusive situations. The Mormons I grew up with expected me to 100% forgive and make excuses for mean, disrespectful and repeatedly abusive people and have automatic reconciliation. However, when they "forgave" me for small things -- some which were not even slights against anyone! -- they really just meant an arrogant acceptance of me. They would assume that I had a personality flaw, tell me they loved me anyway, but hold me at a distance. It had taken me a long time to stop hating abusers but keep them at a distance, and being treated that way in the name of forgiveness (when I had done nothing worthy of being "forgiven") screwed up my understanding of it all and created extreme anxiety for a LONG time.

So now my definitions are different from others. I say get your distance and heal. Forgive him by realizing that he is miserable inside and can't do better. Wish for him that he heals from whatever poison is in him, but stay away so that you can heal from his poison too. Until he is truly sorry, proves he has changed, don't feel like you have to forgive. If he has taken advantage of your love and peace too many times, then he has made his bed and you do not have to reconcile. It is all about YOUR peace, and sometimes not forgiving is what helps a person heal!

"Forgive him by realizing that he is miserable inside and can't do better. Wish for him that he heals from whatever poison is in him, but stay away so that you can heal from his poison too"-I think that hit the target. I am not ever expecting a request for forgiveness from him or an expression of regret. My end game is to 1)distance myself from him, which physically I've done, 2)No longer let negative interaction with him have any affect on me. (Because I have to with our kid). Which is what started my reflection on forgiveness.

Anyone who wants to dish out grief can easily blame their target by telling them they must forgive.

It's a choice or process for the aggrieved person to work on.

Whoever does harm and doesn't change has no right to demand or expect forgiveness.

So sorry kandi...my first inclination is mommy issues...the meek shall inherit nothing west of the mississippi...just kidding...but only partly...you sound too much like me sad to say...peacemaker..avoid conflict at all cost...perhaps care too much what others think and harsh judge yourself on those merits...sadly a bully has no respect for peace...they only understand strenghth..most are cowards and will shrink when challenged...your job now is to stand on your hind legs and demand at least respect..there is something very comforting when you finally do ...you can be respected even if your not liked...liking isnt necessary...anytime moism is involved in any familial problem the list of crap involved gets awfully long...from ruining eternal families...to hubby tyrannized by his abusive mother...i been sorting my shit for over fifty years...heres your buckets...there are no easy answers...like forgiveness...oh boy

Forget what mormonism teaches about forgiveness and steps of forgiveness. There are only two steps to forgiveness 1. Realize you are not perfect and 2. Cut yourself some slack and forgive yourself. It is not his approval but your own disapproval that disturbs your peace of mind.

As for forgiving others the steps are identical but it is optional and a matter of timing. You should not forgive abuse unless or until you have escaped it already. Put it into the past when it's safely in the past, but do not let 'forgiveness' be an invitation for more harm and hurt.