Hello all...I am nor was LDS but have studied it over the past few years extensively. I am a Christian and have studied church history to a great extent, specifically the second great awakening in the 1700's and early 1800's. When I first read about he first vision and then later read the BOM I was shocked how seemingly obvious it was that the material was a byproduct of the early 1800's. We all have blind spots as human beings...I often wonder what mine may be that I am just not aware of yet. So I say this in very much a non judgmental way but I say it so that we all as humans in this life experience can test the things we hold to be true and look at things from different perspectives. I knew that many people had "visions" in that time period in the northeast US, specifically the upstate NY area, otherwise known as the burnt over district. Have a look at some of these quotes and let me know what you think. Listen to the language and check out the dates. Everyone was copying from everyone!

Other Visions

NORRIS STEARNS, 1815 – Greenfield Massachusetts
“I saw two spirits, which I knew at the first sight. But if I had the tongue of an Angel I could not describe their glory, for they brought the joys of heaven with them. One was God, my Maker, almost in bodily shape like a man. His face was, as it were a flame of Fire, and his body, as it had been a Pillar and a cloud. In looking steadfastly to discern features, I could see none, but a small glimpse would appear in some other place. Below him stood Jesus Christ my Redeemer, in perfect shape like a man—His face was not ablaze, but had the countenance of fire, being bright and shining. His Father’s will appeared to be his! All was condescension, peace, and love.”

ELIAS SMITH, 1816
“… I went into the woods … a light appeared from heaven…. My mind seemed to rise in that light to the throne of God and the Lamb…. The Lamb once slain appeared to my understanding, and while viewing him, I felt such love to him as I never felt to any thing earthly…. It is not possible for me to tell how long I remained in that situation …” (The Life, Conversion, Preaching, Travels, and Sufferings of Elias Smith, Portsmouth, N.H., 1816, pp.58-59).

Charles Finney, 1821
North of the village, and over a hill, lay a piece of woods, in which I was in the almost daily habit of walking, more or less, when it was pleasant weather…"I cannot pray. My heart is dead to God, and will not pray." I then reproached myself for having promised to give my heart to God before I left the woods…

ASA WILD, October 22, 1823:
“It seemed as if my mind … was struck motionless, as well as into nothing, before the awful and glorious majesty of the Great Jehovah. He then spake … He also told me, that every denomination of professing christians had become extremely corrupt….”
…In the first place I observe that my mind had been brought into the most profound stillness, and awe; realizing in a remarkable manner the majesty, greatness and glory, of that Being before whom all nations are as the drop of the bucket. It seemed as if my mind, though active in its very nature, had lost all its activity, and was struck motionless, as well as into nothing, before the awful and glorious majesty of the Great Jehovah. He then spake to the following ourport; and in such a manner as I could not describe if I should attempt. -- He told me that the Millennium state of the world is about to take place; that in seven years literally, there would scarce a sinner be found on earth; that the earth itself, as well as the souls and bodies of its inhabitants, should be redeemed, as before the fall, and become as the garden of Eden…
and above all, various and dreadful judgments executed immediately by God, through the instrumentality of the Ministers of the Millennial dispensation which is to exceed in glory every other dispensation; a short description of which may be seen in the last chapter of Isaiah, and in other places. He also told me, that every denomination of professing christians had become extremely corrupt; many of which had never had any true faith at all; but are guided only by depraved reason, refusing the teaching of the spirit [illegible lines]... which alone can teach us the true meaning [illegible lines]... He told me further, that he had raised up, and was now raising up, that class of persons signified by the angel mentioned by the Revelator XIV. 6, 7, which flew in the midst of heaven; having the everlasting gospel to preach, that these persons are of an inferior [social] class, and small learning; that they were rejected by every denomination as a body; but soon, God will open their way, by miracles, judgments, &c. that they will have higher authority, greater power, superior inspiration, and a greater degree of holiness than was ever experienced before [illegible lines] ... divine grace and glory

Alexander Campbell, March 1, 1824
…a “revival in the state of New York”: “Enthusiasm flourishes…. This man was regenerated when asleep, by a vision of the night. That man heard a voice in the woods, saying,
‘Thy sins be forgiven thee.’ A third saw his Savior descending to the tops of the trees at noon day” (The Christian Baptist, Vol. 1, pp.148-49).

those other guys never had seer stones.

Nothing about Joseph Smith was original. Apparently god had nothing new to reveal through him.

As Sandra Tanner once explained to me: "Joseph Smith was like a sponge. He soaked up everything he came in contact with and included it in his church".

I think that this was a fair assessment of the facts.

Now I'm curious, OP.

What have learned about Christian history?

Specifically, regarding blind spots, do you have any difficulties with Paul's (Saul of Tarsus) visions? Then, how Paul's teachings are antithetical to those ofJesus?

...is that there's no evidence that he claimed to have his 1820 visit from God and Jesus until 1831---AFTER all of those other accounts the OP listed were published in newspapers, and AFTER he had published the BOM and founded his church.

The logical deduction being: Smith invented his 1820 vision in 1831 in order to compete with previous claimants.

And it has to be added that this 1831 version was nothing like the official 1820 First Vision as taught by missionaries today. There now exists EIGHT identified versions of the so-called First Vision all of which vary in detail.

What was reportedly seen and heard by Joseph evolved as he developed differing views of who or what constituted the godhead.

I think the true inspiration for the 1831/32 version of the First Vision was Peter Bauder's questions in October 1830 about Smith's "christian experience" leading up to the founding of the Church.

http://mit.irr.org/changing-first-vision-accounts-1830-first-vision-account-related-peter-bauder

"I improved near four and twenty hours in close application with Smith and his followers; he could give me no christian experience, but told me that an angel told him he must go to a certain place in the town of Manchester..."

...primarily because it came from an 1830 interview, before Smith invented his story of an 1820 vision. If had truly had the 1820 vision as he later claimed to, then that should have been the first thing he told the 1830 interviewer about. This is even more relevant since Smith later claimed to have been persecuted by local ministers upon telling them about his 1820 vision. Smith didn't even tell this 1830 interviewer about it, and there's no evidence that he told any ministers about it, either. Meaning, the story of the 1820 vision did not exist in 1830.

It's also relevant to remember that Lucy Mack Smith and William Smith related that Joseph's interest in religion was sparked by the preaching of Methodist circuit rider George Lane, rather than by reading the passage in the book of James and praying in 1820. The historical record tells us that Lane didn't begin preaching in the Smiths' area until 1823. That is further evidence that Joseph concocted the story of the 1820 vision.

So, see. God was appearing to a bunch of people at that time and they all gave the same account. So that PROVES that JS really did see God, because his recall is the same. God had come out of retirement to restore the gospel and while he was at it, he decided to look in on a few of His other followers and tell them their sins had been forgiven.

After he appeard to JS and told him the same thing, he was like, "Hey, this guy is a little different, I think I'll pick Him to restore my church. He's probably the only one with enough charisma to make all these accounts of my appearances stick!"

And the rest is history.

Doesn't matter who was the first to have the vision; what matters is who was the first to successfully sell it in the marketplace. Once that happens, the winner becomes a household name and all the rest are forgotten.

At least, that's the way it works with technology companies.

JAR

Makes you wonder about the great old question: "Why doesn't God ever appear before a crowd of people?" The usual answer is that they would all give slightly different descriptions of what happened.

No, I think with something that profound the stories would be close enough.

Bluesky--do you have additional information on the sources of these very interesting quotes?

"Bluesky--do you have additional information on the sources of these very interesting quotes?"

Those quotes have been published by numerous sources over the years, some of them by Fawn Brodie, Jerald and Sandra Tanner, and LaMarr Peterson. Here's more info:

http://mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm

THE 1ST VISION SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN UNKNOWN BY CHURCH MEMBERS BEFORE 1842, AND FOR DECADES AFTER DID NOT 'T SEEM TO BE VERY IMPORTANT.

From James B. Allen, 1966:

"As far as Mormon literature is concerned, there was apparently no reference to Joseph Smith's first vision in any published material in the 1830's. Joseph Smith's history, which was begun in 1838, was not published until it ran serially in the Times and Seasons in 1842. The famous "Wentworth Letter," which contained a much less detailed account of the vision, appeared March 1, 1842, in the same periodical. Introductory material to the Book of Mormon, as well as publicity about it, told of Joseph Smith's obtaining the gold plates and of angelic visitations, but nothing was printed that remotely suggested earlier visitations."

"In 1833 the Church published the Book of Commandments, forerunner to the present Doctrine and Covenants, and again no reference was made to Joseph's first vision, although several references were made to the Book of Mormon and the circumstances of its origin."

"The first regular periodical to be published by the Church was The Evening and Morning Star, but its pages reveal no effort to tell the story of the first vision to its readers. Nor do the pages of the Latter-day Saints Messenger and Advocate, printed in Kirtland, Ohio, from October, 1834, to September, 1836. In this newspaper Oliver Cowdery, who was second only to Joseph Smith in the early organization of the Church, published a series of letters dealing with the origin of the Church. These letters were written with the approval of Joseph Smith, but they contained no mention of any vision prior to those connected with the Book of Mormon."

"In 1835 the Doctrine and Covenants was printed at Kirtland, Ohio, and its preface declared that it contained "the leading items of religion which we have professed to believe." Included in the book were the "Lectures on Faith," a series of seven lectures which had been prepared for the School of the Prophets in Kirtland in 1834-35. It is interesting to note that, in demonstrating the doctrine that the Godhead consists of two separate personages, no mention was made of Joseph Smith having seen them, nor was any reference made to the first vision in any part of the publication."

"The first important missionary pamphlet of the Church was the Voice of Warning, published in 1837 by Parley P. Pratt. The book contains long sections on items important to missionaries of the 1830's, such as fulfillment of prophecy, the Book of Mormon, external evidence of the book's authenticity, the resurrection, and the nature of revelation, but nothing, again, on the first vision."

"The Times and Seasons began publication in 1839, but, as indicated above, the story of the vision was not told in its pages until 1842. From all this it would appear that the general church membership did not receive information about the first vision until the 1840's and that the story certainly did not hold the prominent place in Mormon thought that it does today." (Dialogue, Vol.1, No.3, p.31 - p.32)


STATEMENTS FROM THE JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES INDICATE A LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OF THE 1ST VISION BY THE CHURCH'S HIGHEST LEADERS (EMPHASIS ADDED)

In 1854 - "Someone may say, 'If this work of the last days be true, WHY DID NOT THE SAVIOR COME HIMSELF to communicate this intelligence to the world?' Because to the angels was committed the power of reaping the earth, and it was committed to none else." - Apostle Orson Hyde, General Conference Address, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.335

In 1855 - Church President and Prophet Brigham Young taught on Feb. 18, 1855: "...so it was in the advent of this new dispensation....The messenger did not come to an eminent divine... THE LORD DID NOT COME with the armies of heaven,... BUT HE DID SEND HIS ANGEL to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day,..." ( Journal of Discourses, vol.2, p.171)

Also in 1855, Apostle Wilford Woodruff declared: "That same organization and Gospel that Christ died for, and the Apostles spilled their blood to vindicate, is again established in this generation. How did it come? By the ministering of an holy angel from God,... THE ANGEL TAUGHT JOSEPH SMITH THOSE PRINCIPLES WHICH ARE NECESSARY FOR THE SALVATION OF THE WORLD;… HE TOLD HIM THE GOSPEL WAS NOT AMONG MEN, AND THAT THERE WAS NOT A TRUE ORGANIZATION OF HIS KINGDOM IN THE WORLD,… This man to whom the angel appeared obeyed the Gospel;..." (Journal of Discourses, Vol.2, pp.196-197)

In 1857 - Church Apostle Heber C. Kimball, speaking Nov. 8th, 1857, seemed to be oblivious to any vision where Smith saw God and Christ: "Do you suppose that God in person called upon Joseph Smith, our Prophet? God called upon him; BUT GOD DID NOT COME HIMSELF AND CALL, BUT HE SENT PETER TO DO IT. DO YOU NOT SEE? HE SENT PETER AND SENT MORONI TO JOSEPH, and told him that he had got the plates." (Journal of Discourses, vol.6, p.29)

In 1863 - Church Apostle John Taylor explained in a sermon March 1, 1863: "HOW DID THIS STATE OF THINGS CALLED MORMONISM ORIGINATE? WE READ THAT AN ANGEL CAME DOWN and revealed himself to Joseph Smith and manifested unto him in vision the true position of the world in a religious point of view." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, p.127)

Church Apostle George A. Smith, Nov. 15th, 1863, preached: "When Joseph Smith was about fourteen or fifteen years old,...he went humbly before the Lord and inquired of Him, and THE LORD ANSWERED HIS PRAYER, AND REVEALED TO JOSEPH, BY THE MINISTRATION OF ANGELS, THE TRUE CONDITION OF THE RELIGIOUS WORLD. WHEN THE HOLY ANGEL APPEARED, JOSEPH INQUIRED WHICH OF ALL THESE DENOMINATIONS WAS RIGHT AND WHICH HE SHOULD JOIN, AND WAS TOLD THEY WERE ALL WRONG,…." (Journal of Discourses, Vol.12, pp.333-334)

In 1869 - Five years later Apostle Smith again referred to Smith's first vision: "He sought the Lord by day and by night, and was enlightened by THE VISION OF AN HOLY ANGEL. When this personage appeared to him, of his first inquiries was, 'Which of the denominations of Christians in the vicinity was right?' " (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p.77-78 June 20, 1869 )



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2016 07:56PM by pathdocmd.

The second great awakening certainly bore influence on Joseph Smith and his assorted visions. The early 19th century is as you have noted a fermenting bowl of religious experience. LDS roots do come from this era and reasonably was influenced directly and indirectly.

Not all of the 2nd Great Awakening was ungodly but too much was steeped in crowd mentality. The charlatans of the ime were quick to recognize the potential. Many of the 'mass emotions' of that time live with us today for better or worse. J.S. was a con man from beginning to end, all that remains to be discerned is how much of his baloney did he hold true to himself.

We are now in the 21st century and can observe the J.S. and the other 2nd great awakening descendants in their natural realm. Much destruction has happened along the way, most certainly too many lies have been passed for truth. Far too little attention has been given to the very well proved scriptures, otherwise the BoM and many other J.S. flummoxes would have long since been dismissed.

What are we to do? The LDS organization is (almost total) nonsense, but so are the other heirs of baloney that dominate the so called christian airways with ridiculous emotional appeals. No, not all publicly known Christians and LDS expositors are fakes (self understanding to the extent they knowingly fool the gullible) but we all need to stop and knock off our costly cultural presuppositions.

The 2nd great awakening had serious flaws, the status quo had their head in the sand, how then do we return to the true grace of God?

It is not my business to tell you how, but I am required to tell you it is necessary. So clear your heads, pray, and settle for nothing less than the truth.

Well-proved scripture?

OK, let's go with that and look at Genesis. God is plural, so out goes monotheism, right? Also, the God of the Garden of Eden can't find Adam, who is hiding. So he's not omnipotent, right?

And, alas, he doesn't want his new creations to know the difference between good and evil, although that is the whole purpose of this earthly life test, isn't it?


I could go on, but you would just rely on your "faith" which I redefine as your "pretending to know things you don't know."

If the purpose of religion is to know the nature of God, the Bible is the worst possible source of information.



Kathleen

When I first read the Bible I was shocked at how it was clearly a byproduct of the times in which it was written as well as a byproduct of the agenda of many religiously political translators.


And, yes. Back in the early 1800's you were just nobody unless you had had a vision. No church founding charlatan would be caught dead without one.

Nowadays visions aren't necessary because religious leaders can get their tax exemptions without them and followers prefer their religious leaders not pretend to have seen God because then they would have to consider if that were true and they know in their guts it isn't.