I don't know where the idea originated that Mormomism is the fourth Abrahamic religion. I do not accept that designation. However, if true, then Mormons are not Christians.

Of the three Abrahamic religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, the followers are known as Jews, Christians, and Muslims. All three share some sense of a common history and geography.

I suppose Mormons would most accurately be called Smithians, if the above formula were followed. But each of the three above named, while having some commonality, maintain distinct identities. So Jews are not Christian nor Muslim, Christians are not Jews nor Muslim, Muslim are not Jewish nor Christian.

So why do Mormons want to be seen on the Christian bandwagon?

Seems to me that being a Christian requires that one accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and a belief in the Bible, predominately. How that all plays out with organized churches and titles, and policies is a matter of personal choice.
Mormons have always been based on the Bible teachings, and their whole church is set up as the "only restored" church of Jesus Christ. That's a major claim that others do not make.
I was a Christian believer when I converted to Mormonism. Nothing in that belief ever changed until I left it all behind.

Another mormons aren't true christians thread.

YAWN

The whole point of mormonism is that it is the restoration of true christianity. To call them Smithians is disingenuous. You may as well call evangelicals Paulians.

If Islam can contain such bitterly opposed sects as the Shiites and the Sunnis, I'm sure Christianity can hold all of its insane sub categories, including Mormons and Moonies.

I agree that Christianity can and does absorb many sects. But those sects do not make the claim of not being part of their larger Abrahamic designation. Sunnis and Shiites still consider themselves Muslims, and all the branches of Judaism still consider themselves Jewish.

I am not judging as to whether Mormons are Christian or not. I simply fail to understand why on one hand, they lay claim to the designation of a fourth Abrahamic religion and yet consider themselves members of another so designated existing group.

The other three consider themselves distinct from each other, and also contain many subsets within their individual distinctions.

If Mormons are Christian as they claim, and I do not dispute that claim, then why do they not consider themselves as subset or denomination within the Christian nomenclature? What is the identity of the fourth Abrahamic religion, what is the source of that claim?

I see your point and agree. They want special status so badly that it disrupts their feeble attempts to blend in with other Christian sects. They certainly do stand out with polygamy, living prophets, and secret temples.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2016 08:35PM by donbagley.

Good thoughts, donbagley. I have always been bemused by some of my older TBM relatives who declare, "There's a lot of good out there!" I know they think it makes them look tolerant, even liberal. I've always wanted, but never have, to ask exactly where "out there" is. And, of course, they would not see any condescension in there remarks. Special, superior knowledge, but just like everyone else = crazy making, imo.

Abraham provided several genetic heirs. Only Isaac provided an inheritance of Holy scripture. 'Christians' take their authority from a line of Holy Scripture not from some fantasy of bloodline or tribal contrivance (emphasis on FANTASY!).

Muhammad was a latecomer in history (eastern and Western Christianity was already well established), Joseph Smith was outrageously later than Muhammad.

All these latter things are human contrivances sought to derail the gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus is who he says he is or all else is nonsense. Muhammad and Joseph Smith are usurpers who sought their own glory at the terrible expense of their followers.

I'm not sure how much Mormons use the wording to describe their own religion, but it was in the context of the 2008 US presidential elections, when Christian Conservative leaders were trying to decide whether or not to endorse Romney, that the phrase was evidently first used. Richard Land, the head of the Southern Baptist Convention's Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission coined the term; from Time magazine:

"A cult, [Land] said on the Bloomberg show, 'is a form of faith which does not comply with the essential teachings of the Christian faith but claims to be within the Christian faith or to be the true expression of the Christian faith, as opposed to being another religion like Judaism.' Land explained that he would look at Mormonism 'as another faith in the same sense that I would look upon Islam as another faith. I think the fairest and most charitable way to define Mormonism would be to call it the fourth Abrahamic religion — Judaism being the first, Christianity being the second, Islam being the third, and Mormonism being the fourth. And Joseph Smith would play the same character in Mormonism that Muhammad plays in Islam.'"

So essentially, Land was trying to be diplomatic in his description of Mormonism; the article concludes:

"The Abrahamic remark can be understood as an impressive act of political equipoise: being less snarky about Romney's status without letting him totally off the hook."

("What Is Mormonism? A Baptist Answer," By David Van Biema, Time magazine, Wednesday, Oct. 24, 2007); linked at http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1675308,00.html



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2016 06:15PM by lurking in.

Thanks for providing that source. I am only aware of some Mormons using the 4th designation in either a defensive or justifying way. So hard to straddle the "see we're special/see we're just like you" conundrum.

In my limited experience with mostly younger TBM relations, those who claim to be like everyone else know very little about what everyone else is like.

Christian = Mormon predates the Mitt Romney political adventure. But it seems to have grown slowly in significance after the 1950's.

The understanding of this cultural term is of significance in grasping contemporary religion. The absolute theological grasp goes outside most reasonable contemporary understanding.

To outsiders, any religious people who worshiped Christ would appear to be Christians. It is hairsplitting when people try to make the case that Mormons are not Christians.

Would we who come from the background that we come from look at Sunnis and Shiites and turn up our noses and use our most snobby voices and say, "Those Shiites clearly are not Muslims."

"Mormons are not Christians." - DUH!

Hear,hear!

Mormonism isn't Christianity. It's more like Islam in practice. What you do is more important than what you believe. The same characters from the Bible are in Mormonism but are not the same. Jews, Christians and Muslims don't agree on many things but they do believe in the same one god that is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent.


Mormonism isn't even monotheistic. It's a swindle that promises victims potential MLM godhood in exchange for buying AfterLife™ burn insurance.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2016 03:01PM by anybody.

anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What you do is more important than
> what you believe.

I was never taught or believed that. I don't know any Mormon who does. There is enough wrong with Mormonism. You don't need a straw man.

We really don't know if Jesus and his followers would look at modern Christians and be willing to call them Christian. I imagine in any sect there are those who sincerely love the teachings of Jesus and sincerely try to understand and live them. It drives mainstream Christians crazy to think that a Mormon could be a sincere and true believer in Christ, so they have to make up stories of how Mormons don't believe in the same Christ. Well no two people believe in the same Christ really. The whole argument that if you don't believe in the Trinity then you can't be Christian is just a matter of choosing which teachings to fetishize with saving power. So you are arguing something that starts from your own pre-supposition and it will always cycle back around to that.

Perhaps they didn't explicitly use that phrase. Mormonism is primarily concerned with orthopraxy (correct behaviour) like Islam. Islamic law basically arouse because people kept asking what was the correct (i.e. Islamic) way to do something.

Disclaimer: I don't personally believe any of this -- just stating facts for comparison.

It's not just enough to accept Christ in Mormonism. For most Christians that's about all you have to do. I've read speeches by Bruce McConkie saying the concept of a personal relationship with Christ didn't exist in Mormonism.


Mormonism has lots of extra stuff that you *have* to do.

At one time a man had to marry three wives to get to go to the Celestial Kingdom, become a god and your get own planet to rule and populate. A woman still has to be married, though.


You have to pay tithing. It's not optional. Same goes for the dietary laws a/k/a "Word of Wisdom."


Lots of other non-optional stuff:
temple worship, garments, dress code, ban on interracial marriage and mixed race offspring (still not recommended), now applied to same sex children, etc.

You can't disagree on interpretation of Scripture as the protestants, Catholics, and orthodox do. There's only one way -- the Prophet's Way -- take it or leave it.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2016 03:27PM by anybody.

You are telling me what I was taught?

The ability to argue about scripture is evidence of true Christianity?

Then you are back to the arguing that Mormons are different and distasteful to the larger group of Christians, so they aren't Christians. Essentially: "I have defined this group of people as Christian. You are not in this group. Therefore you are not Christian."

Yes, Mormons try to have it both ways. To be separate and special and then turn around and talk about all of the similarities.

But your argument that you know that you are part of the real Christians just doubles back on itself: "My beliefs are true because I believe them, and I believe them because they are true. That's how I know Jesus chose me and my people."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2016 04:36PM by fool.

and I don't care one way or the other but Mormonism isn't Christianity. It's not even monotheistic. The Mormon concept of god is completely different. Jews and Muslims don't accept Jesus' virgin birth and neither do Mormons. Christians do.


There are people in Japan who believe Jesus didn't die in Judea and came to live in Japan. Religion is flexible. You can believe whatever you want.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2016 04:49PM by anybody.

Yes, it's a fraud. Yes there are very major differences in the way mainstream Christians and Mormons conceive of God. I am not insisting Mormons are the true Christians.

What I am saying is that I don't think you can know that you are a member of the true Christians in order to tell the Mormons that they are not because of your differences. I'm not asking for Bible verses. Because how do you know that a group of like minded people didn't choose sermons to put in the Bible that supported their own point of view? Maybe an ancient Joseph Smith like character and his followers hijacked true Christianity and put the Bible together to support their new take on Christ? Maybe you just know, in the same way that Mormons just know that their Church is true.

I don't think you know who, in their own heart, praying to Jesus and trying to follow Him, is a true Christian, and who is so mistaken that they just can't be Christian.

Why invalidate what sincerity is there? I think it's counter productive. Why not just focus on correcting the errors, instead of a kind of blanket invalidation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2016 05:08PM by fool.

I don't know...
Have hard time understanding why they want to degrade themselves.

A: Growth and Economic and Political Power

Look at the LD$ growth statistics. The rise of the Religious Right made the Brethren change direction. Back in the 1950s when Mormons numbered under five million and still mostly living in Utah and the Rocky Mountain West, being "Mormon" and not "Christian" was O.K. Fast forward to the 1960s and 1970s. Social turmoil was on the rise. "White Flight" began to depopulate city centres. These people wouldn't want to be part of something alien or "different" but safe and familiar. The pseudo-Christian approach was the answer.

You wrote: "I don't know...
Have hard time understanding why they want to degrade themselves."

Are you of some moral higher plane than Trinitarian Christianity or the mainstream of LDS today? Compare the degradation of contemporary Americana to Mormonism at its core and millennium of Christianity. I mean just on a cultural level never mind the theological standards. What claim does your cynicism have for elevating itself such as to suggest that Godliness should 'degrade itself'?

You said: "Compare the degradation of contemporary Americana to Mormonism at its core and millennium of Christianity."

Before any comparisons can be made, here are some questions for clarification:

How do you define "contemporary Americana?" Is it a highly skewed caricature of American culture?

What is "Mormonism at its core?" (Good luck coming up with a definition of that one!)

And, by the "millennium of Christianity," are you referring to the last thousand years of documented Christian behavior or the thousand-year, fantasy-future reign of Jesus Christ on earth?

[Edited for content]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2016 05:12AM by lurking in.

If it should be designated as anything it would Masonic Christianity.

To say its a fourth abrahamic religion would set it outside of Christianity.

A little history shows that Mormonism was started as only one of many of the new "Christian" movements in the Restoration Movements. Just as there were Orthodox Christians, Protestant Christians, Gnostic Christians...There was a new movement of "Restoration Movement" or Restoration Christians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restoration_Movement

However, Mormonism became unique in the fact that they claimed true leadership, power, priesthood of Christ through divine visitations restoring the keys and priesthood. They also tried to unite themselves in the uniting of ALL ABRAHAMIC religions by saying they were bringing the lost tribes back. So they claimed to also be restoring the tribe of Judah. http://journalofdiscourses.com/9/33 Restoration of the Jews--http://journalofdiscourses.com/14/9

At one time they considered themselves closer to the teaching of Mohammed (although they called him Mohamet) and loved that they were closer to the Crescent than the Cross. They taught that Mohammed had the Patriarchal Priesthood and were closer to Mormons because of their teachings of Polygamy, No alcohol, modesty of dress. http://journalofdiscourses.com/3/6 and Mohametism and Christianity by Parley P Pratt http://journalofdiscourses.com/3/7

So, they weren't trying to be a 4th religion, but trying to be a link or bridge for all of El's people. The leaders used to quote and use the Book of Enoch and many of the Apocrypha books in their general conference talks and teachings. They probably would of canonized Joseph Smith's translation of the Bible which described many teachings like Adam blessing Enoch, Noah, etc... before his death and passing on his garments to Noah (Which Ham tried to steal, which is the real reason Ham was cursed and he and his descendants not given the priesthood).

A lot of teachings, history and principles and dogma for Mormonism has been lost, watered down or omitted to try to get them to be more Evangelical friendly and more relatable to the Majority of the U.S. Christian community. This in all things proves they are not divinely guided by God or directly in communication with Jesus; because from Elijah, to Jesus, to Paul, to Nathan, to even the BoM prophets... The prophets would have to preach those hard truths that were hard to hear or not favored by the majority.

The Mormons also began not thinking themselves not so much as a religion; but more of as a people and a theocracy. This was established by the "Mormon Reformation" and the Council of 50, Danites, Blood Atonement, etc... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_Reformation Which has no scriptural basis except as Sharia Law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2016 04:07PM by dydimus.

The term 'Christian' has morphed in definition through 2 millennium of culture and thought. In the first century AD it is what the seculars called the followers of Jesus (they referred to themselves as 'The Way'). Fast forward to the 19th century LDS believers come into the scene, they call themselves LDS not Christians and make great efforts to distinguish themselves.

During the 20th century the practice in vocabulary among many Trinitarians was to identify themselves as 'Christian', a typical question would be the challenge "are you a Christian?"

The term 'Christian' became almost synonymous with 'one who claims to be saved through Jesus', a red badge of courage so to speak. Even LDS began to embrace that identification even though they are fundamentally nontrinitarian. Subsequently other nontrinitarians such as JW have begun to embrace the label 'Christian'.

Suddenly we have come to the point of needing to recognize any understanding of Jesus as being 'Christian'. I anticipate the ridiculous advent of even needing to acknowledge muslims as being 'Christian' or else risk the rebuke of being politically incorrect, (racist, homophobe, bible clinger, redneck and so on).

Being of so called Abrahamic religion is of no value in heavenly terms. God does not respect it and has repeatedly warned against any man based belief system (clue ... Abraham was a man). Muslims Mormons and Moonies the 3M's of heresy have no claim through Abraham. The Jewish people have a claim though Jacob (Abraham's grandson). Muslim people have no claim whatsoever, Ishamel's line became obscure (not a nation) before the Babylonian exile and has little or no connection to Muhammad who was born long after the "Christian' Church was well established. Mormonism was and still is a cultish aberration of 19th century American revival enthusiasm. Can anyone image what Joseph Smith would have done had he access to network television? God help us all.

You have special knowledge from God that sincerely following an Abrahamic religion is not enough for salvation. One must be a Trinitarian?

I don't think we should just call anyone a Christian who says they are. I think we should only call Christ's Jewish followers in Jerusalem Christians. The followers who knew what Christ taught before the movement was hijacked by Paul. Those are the Christians. The gentile Christians with the Hellenized cannon should more correctly be called Paulites.

The only special knowledge from God I claim is His Holy Word. The remainder of my analysis is based on cultural observations AFTER the Bible was well established.

So to the point of the word 'Christian' in scripture:


Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

1 Peter 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.


In every case the term 'Christian' bears a secular understanding. In the strongest contrary argument 'Christian' never has a soteriological inference (how shall we be saved?)

The only special knowledge of God worth considering is that which He has already provided now for several millennium.

You are quoting scripture at me.

So, if after all what you are saying is that Christian is a social designation and not a matter of a relationship with Christ or salvation. Then probably a majority vote of those who belong to Christianity would conclude that Mormons are not Christian. Now that you have clearly defined what you mean. I agree that Mormons are not Christian, because it is a club you have created and you say they are not.

It is not necessary to belong to this club in order to sincerely believe in and follow Christ, or to achieve salvation. But by common interpretations of scripture this is the right way to do it.

The reasonable identification 1st century followers of Christ assumed was 'The Way'. It was Trinitarian from the beginning.

John 1:1-12

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2016 06:14PM by anybody.

That's true. The Mormons want to hide or downplay the differences until they have the convert hooked. They take advantage of the familiarity of the word Christian to help the potential convert feel safe. It's dishonest.

LDS Inc's MORmONISM wanting to be included in the Formal Traditional Christian community is a new twist of foul deceitful MORmONISM. It's a latter form of MORmON latter day phoniness.

MORmONISM was founded on bashing Traditional Christianity, on an Us versus Them, we are great and they suck platform. I remember very well when my parents and my grandparents were PROUD to be excluded from the Traditional Christian Community by the Traditional Christian Community. It was a badge of honor for MORmONS to not be lumped in with the Traditional Christianity that MORmONS considered to be hopelessly apostate and intolerably corrupt.

As far as MORmONS were concerned when the highly disappointing apostates of Traditional CHristianity finally wanted to embrace Real MORmON Christianity with its true Unmentionable Secret handshaking and Mock Throat SLashing then they could join THE (MORmON) church and until then they could literally just go to Hell. In true MORmON fashion (phoniness), MORmONS felt it was grossly unfair and offensive when Traditional Christians exercised the same sentiment against MORmONISM.

Since the grand MORmON Us Versus Them concept has been thoroughly milked, and since LDS Inc MORmON convert growth has sagged, a very desperate Money hungry LDS Inc has decided that it should get more cozy with Traditional Christianity, to make it easier for Traditional Christians who are damn dumb enough to become MORmONS to make THE transition to becoming members of THE (MORmON) church.

Too bad for MORmONISM that their shift to a seemingly more moderated position on the matter has not produced an increase in conversions to MORmONISM, and there is not much else that will either. However, MORmONISM will still periodically engage in a rabid attack on Traditional CHristianity to get their MORmON superiority kick. Too bad for MORmONISM that people like me still remember very well when MORmONISM spurned being part of the Traditional Christian community. Too bad that filthy foul disgusting MORmONISM has managed to persist as long as it has.

MORmON growth rates are still in decline regardless of How MORmONISM attempts to frame its hopelessly STUPID Book of MORmON scam, and eventually the actual size of MORmONISM will slump into decline too.

Hopelessly Apostate Traditional Christianity will still be churning away long after MORmONISM has completely disappeared. How much will the argument over whether or not MORmONS are really Christians matter then?

Daphne Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't know where the idea originated that
> Mormomism is the fourth Abrahamic religion.

......Uhhhhhh probably in some MORmON minds, you know -a place so absent of any real logic and so desperate for MORmONISM to amount to anything of substance that such a concept made sense in a MORmONIC kind of way, because every else MORmONISM rates some place between vomit and fecal matter. And, of course, in even more MORmON centric MORmON minds, MORmONISM is actually the first Abrahamic religion, just as Adam is the first MORmON prophet and Jesus is also the first MORmON going clear back to the pre mortal existence, because MORmONS know that MORmONISM is first in everything and that MORmONISM over arches and under girds everything that has ever happened and every thing that ever will happen.