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Posted by: oldprofessor ( )
Date: March 10, 2016 09:14PM

Hiyo. First post on the site, been lurking for a while. Just thought I'd share an item I posted on another site.

"I grew up in Michigan, lived in London for 10 years, and then in Silicon Valley for 20 . For the last three years, I've lived in Salt Lake City, and it's been a revelation. I am not a Mormon, but from my experience, David Mason's observations are sport-on. Many (most?) modern-day Mormons in Utah seem comfortable with the fact that Utah is, to an extent unmatched anywhere else in the United States, a theocracy.

The roots of this belief, and of its political repercussions, run deep. Many Utah Mormons seem to regard Utah as "their" state, rather than as merely one state among 50. When, for example, Mormons celebrate "Pioneer Day," on July 24, they aren't celebrating the many Americans who trekked west in hopes of a better life, but a small band of co-religionists who came to Utah to establish an independent Mormon state. In Utah, Pioneer Day evokes a bigger celebration than the Fourth of July.

If Mormons are dominant in Utah, it's not because they arrived first, or because God promised them the land, but because they vigorously colonized the territory, on orders of Brigham Young, with the goal of creating an exclusive and exclusionary kingdom for fellow Mormons. Utah is mostly Mormon because the Mormons, unlike any other western settlers, sought to create a territory in which one religion (theirs) dominated all others. Although the goal of creating a Mormon state was ultimately thwarted by the US government, every July 24 Mormons still celebrate the success of their forebears in creating a de facto theocracy in the American west.

To wit: I remember hearing one of the Mormon "Apostles" state in a YouTube video that individuals from all faiths were welcome in Utah--as if that "acceptance" was a gift of the LDS church rather than a right guaranteed by the US constitution. This attitude of Utah being "ours" is subtle but pervasive, and it underlies the church's frequent interventions in Utah politics.

Throughout their history, Mormons have sought to create enclaves where they could dominate the local economy and co-opt local politics through the force of their numbers. In 1831, for example, Joseph Smith told his followers that they would one day inherit land held by other, earlier, settlers in Jackson County, Missouri. These territorial ambitions--in Missouri, Illinois and latter Utah--understandably created unease among the local non-Mormon population, not least because the degree of social, economic and political cohesion among the members of the LDS church was and is virtually unprecedented within the history of religion in America.

Today, in Utah, Mormons use their social cohesion and political hegemony to influence policy-making and legislation in ways that have no parallel elsewhere in the United States. Yes, other, less indivisible, religious groups seek to shape US public policy--the Catholics on federal funding for birth control; the evangelicals on school curriculum, etc.--but no other religious group exercises anything like as much influence on state-level politics as the LDS church does in Utah.

Beyond their social cohesion and numerical advantage, there are two other factors that buttress the Mormon's political power in Utah. The first is a religious narrative that emphasizes the persecution Mormons endured prior to their journey west. While the persecution was real, and the violence indefensible, it was in part the product of (a) Mormonism's exclusivist tendencies--which often disenfranchised non-Mormons in Mormon-dominated communities, and (b) the adoption of religious practices, such as polygamy, which were deeply at odds with prevailing social norms. Nevertheless, the persecution narrative is accepted uncritically by most Mormons. This on-going sense of being a beleaguered tribe creates an atmosphere in which heavy-handed efforts to "defend our values," even at the expense of others, are viewed as legitimate.

A second exacerbating factor is the church's top-down leadership structure. The president of the LDS church is not merely the administrative head, but is regarded by the faithful as a "living prophet." Hence the oft-quoted Mormon believe that "once the prophet has spoken, the thinking has been done." Obedience, rather than repentance or service, seems to be the paramount Mormon value, and no other large denomination places a similar emphasis on submitting to human authority. This deference to authority makes it very difficult for LDS legislators in Utah to defy the wishes of the church. When church leaders criticize a pending bill, even obliquely, it is quickly amended or withdrawn. While Catholic legislators, for example, may believe in the Pope's divine authority, experience suggests that they find it easier to separate their legislative and religious obligations than do Mormon lawmakers."

This was followed by a rather thoughtful post from someone I assume to be Mormon:

"Big Brutha" says:

"And yet, the Mormons are, to some extent, still beleaguered. Name another denomination or faith that has a Broadway play named after its scriptures which spends most of its time belittling the beliefs of those who adhere to the teachings of the titular text?

We don't have shows entitled: "The Bible!" or the "The Quran!" or "The Torah!" floating around. But it is still culturally acceptable to publicly mock Mormons for no other reason than that they are "different".

Not that this surprises Mormons but it does dishearten them. When Mitt Romney ran for president there was plenty of invective thrown around, not about his policies as governor, but about his faith which reinforced the idea that it is acceptable to speak about Mormons in a way that it is not generally acceptable to talk about other religious groups, and that there is still a great deal of hostility and suspicion towards Mormons in the minds of the general public.

Maybe you've never been privy to the presentations held by some Protestant churches on Mormonism. Many of the rest of us have. There is a reason Mormons feel that have to band together. Despite holding many of the same conservative social views, their beliefs and views are generally skewed when not outright lied about in these contexts. It makes it hard to reach out to other seemingly like-minded groups. You will find no comparable Mormon sponsored effort to debunk other religious groups. Mormons know where they differ from other denominations but try to emphasize ways to work together with others.

The reasons that Brigham Young sought to create an exclusive zone should be obvious. Mormons tried the live and let live approach in New York, Ohio, Missouri, and Illinois before finally trekking west. Now, I am not one who will say there were not faults on both sides. There were.

But it makes little sense to blame Mormons for wanting to be left alone to live as they chose in peace after their bitter experiences elsewhere. And if you say they brought those problems on themselves by their clannishness and cohesiveness, then it would seem rather obvious that going someplace even more exclusive would be a natural result.

But even after moving to an area largely devoid of other settlers the Mormons were still not left alone. Even after departing the confines of the United States there were armed incursions by the Federal Government to try to "deal" with them. Considering these efforts and the attempts of other denominations to set up schools t to try to "deMormonize" children in the region, it is hardly surprising if there is a degree of clannishness still in place.

Does it make sense that the LDS church would have less influence in Utah than Catholicism plays in Italy, or Orthodoxy in Greece or Russia or Shia Islam in Iran? All are hierarchical religions with top down structures and they all maintain overwhelming influence in the areas closest to their respective headquarters.

Evangelicals do not have the same centralized structure as the groups mentioned above. They do have serious influence on policies and politics in the states where they predominate but do not function in exactly the same way because they are not organized in the same way.

Again, if you compare apples and apples their are more similarities than differences in terms of these kinds of behaviors between similarly structured groups."

And my reply:

"First, I believe most people of faith feel beleaguered today. Religion of all kinds is increasingly seen as kooky, and believers are regarded as incredulous rubes. On television, in movies, and in the press, religious individuals are almost universally portrayed as hypocritical, bigoted and anti-science. To be a Christian in the 21st century is to be an outsider. Perhaps Mormons have felt this way longer than most, but it is now a universal reality for all people of faith.

As to Mitt, I don't think he caught any more flack in 2012 because of his Mormon beliefs than Barack Obama got in 2008 because of his suspected sympathy for Islam.

I grew up as a Seventh-day Adventist, so I know something of what it's like to be an outsider. Like Mormons, Adventists revere a prophet who grew up in 19th-century New York and who, like Joseph Smith had visions and authored works that are considered canonical by the faith's adherents. Growing up, I was taught to distrust those from other faiths and to look forward to a "time of trouble" when those who worshipped on Saturday (instead of Sunday) would be persecuted. There were no Adventist enclaves similar to Mormon Utah, so I, like other Adventists, grew up around neighbors who thought we were weird for our vegetarianism, sobriety, and aversion to dancing, movies and other forms of popular entertainment.

I also know what it's like to have people from other religions misrepresent one's beliefs, or accuse one of belonging to a "cult." I had to learn to deal with that sort of misinformation and prejudice. But I also learned that sometimes the criticisms were justified. Here and there, my denomination did profess beliefs that were biblically suspect. And Adventists could, and often did, behave in clannish ways. If I had grown up in a community that was predominantly Adventist, I might never have had to confront these realities. I would have been able to take refuge in a culturally homogenous community. That would have been more socially comfortable, but it also would have stymied my intellectual development.

In other words, Mormons are far from the only religion in the US that's been subject to public ridicule or worse. For more than a hundred years after the Pilgrims landed in North America, American Catholics were relentlessly persecuted for their faith. I've never seen a job posting that says, "Mormons need not apply," but that was the reality many Catholics faced in the 18th century.

As to other churches misrepresenting the Mormon faith ...
I don't know what Christian denominations teach about Mormonism, but I do know that Mormons believe all other denominations have apostatized, and assert that Mormonism is the only "true" religion. So it may be a bit optimistic to expect the other side to hold its tongue. In addition, Mormons claim that the Book of Mormon is "the truest book ever written." While I'm not in a position to evaluate that assertion, I can understand why mainstream Christians might regard that statement as blasphemous. To them, the Bible is God's final testimony to those on earth.

I'm sure there are those who've spread untruths about Mormonism, but I wonder if they've been any more culpable in distorting Mormon history than the LDS church itself. I have Mormon friends (in their 40s, 50s and 60s) who until recently had no idea about Joseph Smith's 40+ wives, his use of a peep stone to translate the BoM, the dubious historicity of the Book of Abraham, or other difficult facts about the church's past. Read "Letter to a CES Director," (http://cesletter.com), and you quickly realize that the LDS hierarchy has been at least as good as outsiders at misrepresenting the facts about Mormonism.

I understand your point about Mormons wanting to live unmolested lives, but one has to be honest about the extent to which the early Saints brought some of their trouble upon themselves. Again, this can't be a justification for violence, but to the extent those early Mormons sought to (1) establish exclusive zones of Mormon influence (a defacto theocracy); (2) usurp civil authority; (3) adopt practices, such as polygamy, that were abhorrent to the vast majority of their neighbors, and (4) punish or silence those who objected to their practices, they put themselves at high risk of being disparaged.

Let me provide a contemporary analogy. Suppose I had a house in Salt Lake City and, adopting ancient Jewish practices, I decided to periodically sacrifice an animal on an altar built in front of my residence. Further, assume I was able to talk everyone on my block into following this practice--by convincing them that I was God's prophet and that this practice was required of them. Soon, there'd be dozens of alters. Animals would be ritually slaughtered in view of passersby, and the blood of these animals would run into the city drains. Before long, those in adjacent blocks would start complaining, and I would be ordered to stop the practice. If no law existed that made this practice illegal, such a statue would soon be passed. And if I ignored that law, I would expect my neighbors to take more drastic action.

What if, in addition, I prophesied that the US government was going to be overthrown by my co-religionists, that those who didn't accept the covenant of my faith would be swept away, and that I would become king of the entire world? What if I worked to turn disadvantaged groups against the federal government, and formed a well-armed militia? What if I participated in a mock coronation? Such acts would be perceived as provocative at best and treasonous at worst, but I could hardly expect my secular-minded neighbors to "let me live in peace." Substitute polygamy for animal sacrifice, and you pretty much have description of Joseph Smith's actions in Nauvoo, Illinois. This isn't speculation or slander--it'a fact. Of course those early saints deserved to live in peace, but you have to admit, Joseph was a wee bit provocative. (http://www.mormonthink.com/gra....

If Mormons were more up front about their history, I think others would be less inclined to critique the church. For example, I often read in Mormon publications that Joseph Smith was "martyred." There's no doubt he was unlawfully killed, but it's also true he had trampled on the First Amendment by sending out a posse to destroy a printing press operated by his critics. Joseph Smith's death was a tragedy--but the circumstances are far more complicated than most Mormons know or acknowledge. Neither Jesus or any of the apostles died with a weapon in his hand.

Without doubt, the trek to Utah was motivated by persecution, but it was also motivated by a desire to find space in North Americ where Smith's vision of a theocracy could be brought to fruition. (If your neighbors find your practices intolerable, move to a place where you have no neighbors). Ultimately, though that vision ran smack into the "manifest destiny" of US continental expansion.

Which brings us to the present day. I'm sure you're right that there are groups in Utah that try to "de-Mormonize" the children of LDS families. (I doubt they're very successful). On the other hand, tens of thousands of LDS youngsters are sent out each year to convert non-Mormons. If you're going to proselytize, you have to expect to be proselytized in return. Or to put it more bluntly, don't expect to be left alone if you don't leave others alone.

You ask, does it make sense for the LDS church to have less influence in Utah than the Catholic church in Italy, the Orthodox churches in Greece and Russia, or Shia Islam in Iran? Absolutely! Each of these countries has, or had, a state religion--and in all cases this resulted in religiously-inspired, state-backed tyranny. That was my earlier point. The founders of the United States understood the dangers of conflating religion and politics, and took measures to limit those risks. Hence the concerns of those who live in Utah who aren't Mormons. Nowhere else in the US do you find one religious group so dominant, and so willing to use its political influence. Of course I believe religions have a right to influence the political process, but I don't believe any one religion has the right to dominate the legislative agenda of an entire state.

In Italy, though it is 97% Catholic, only about 15% of the population attends mass regularly. With one of Europe's lowest birth rates, Catholics widely ignore the church's teaching on contraception.
In addition, the Catholic church has very little legislative influence. For example, in 2009, the Italian government legalized the abortion pill, (RU-486), despite protests from the church. It's almost impossible to imagine the Utah legislature ignoring the LDS church's wishes on a matter of similar doctrinal importance.

You're right to note that the LDS church is distinguished from other religions in the degree to which a small group of "apostles" dictate policy and expect obedience in return. There really is no parallel, except, as you note with the clerics in Iran--a hardly comforting parallel. Even the Pope, while claiming to be the spiritual descendent of Peter, doesn't claim to be God's living prophet on earth--as does the President of the LDS church.

All of this makes the influence of the Mormon church in Utah all the more worrying. What do I do, as a Mormon legislator, when I believe I'm being instructed by God to support or block a bill? Simple: I comply.

No other religious leader in a major US denomination would claim to be God's direct representative on earth, nor expect state legislators to regard his opinions as divine fiat. While this may feel entirely comfortable to temple-worthy Mormons in Utah, it strikes outsiders as anti-democratic."

If you've read this far, interested in what you think.

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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: March 10, 2016 09:55PM

Yes. I've read this far.

What I think is this is so well reasoned and so well written that I wish I could get my TBM family to read it and have a discussion.

One can dream . . .

I for one really enjoy getting such a well thought out perspective from a neverMo. The Utah Theocracy is one reason I could never ever live there again.

There is one thing that you mention that tickles me. When it comes to the persecution claimed by the Mormons, a little research shows quite easily that the early Mormons "gave as good as they got." Still do.

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Posted by: blakballoon ( )
Date: March 10, 2016 10:03PM

Thanks, good read. I don't live in the US, but find it very interesting. Sometimes a post comes along that I wish I could bookmark, this was one of those.

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Posted by: Topper ( )
Date: March 10, 2016 10:11PM


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Posted by: BYU Boner ( )
Date: March 10, 2016 10:56PM

Outstanding critique, Old Professor! There is both political and moral hegemony in the beehive state. Your summarization and synthesis of Mormon historical issues and practices is concise and accurate according to my perceptions, as well.

Please continue to post here! The Student's Boner.

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Posted by: NeverMo in CA ( )
Date: March 10, 2016 11:09PM

That was very well-written. Of the many good points that jumped out at me, this is the best, in my view:

"Which brings us to the present day. I'm sure you're right that there are groups in Utah that try to "de-Mormonize" the children of LDS families. (I doubt they're very successful). On the other hand, tens of thousands of LDS youngsters are sent out each year to convert non-Mormons. If you're going to proselytize, you have to expect to be proselytized in return. Or to put it more bluntly, don't expect to be left alone if you don't leave others alone."

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Posted by: frogdogs ( )
Date: March 11, 2016 01:39PM

The day the LDS church stops sending out its army of missionaries is the day it can begin (but only just barely, in humility and penance) whining about its mostly self-created persecution complex.

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: March 10, 2016 11:27PM

To the subject, and while I can easily "split a lot of hairs" and engage in some lengthy nuanced discussions, your message is clear enough: Utah is largely a theocracy (the exceptions being Salt Lake, Park City, and Moab, and none of these venues finds representation in the state government. The worst thing I see is that there are a fair number of "moderate to liberal Mormons" who want to see things turned around to a more secular culture, society, and government, but that's not happening...

Unfortunately, if I were to discuss this in depth, I would be veering off into realm of politics here, and that's a no-no...

Keep beating the drum as you're able...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2016 12:41PM by SL Cabbie.

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Posted by: Lost on a beach ( )
Date: March 11, 2016 12:12PM

That is a very well articulated outline of why my TBM spouse refuses to live in Utah again. No diversity in thought or opinion, and a willingness to (legally) trample the disenfranchised.

And yet I like Park City skiing . . .

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Posted by: poopstone ( )
Date: March 11, 2016 12:51PM

I think OP makes a good point that Evangelicals have just as much push in politics and the mormon church does. I think many folks in Utah who critizise Mormonism forget that in the south there are the same blue light kind of laws that are here in Utah. There are dry counties still in the south. There's been times when smoking cigarettes was a criminal offence. That Interracial marriage was against the law in many places. In fact they still try to protect children by not letting teenagers get stoned and drunk on the streets. Soon maybe we'll be able to lift the drinking age to 5 instead of 21?

But it's harder to point the finger at the Baptists, because they are disorganized and don't believe in authority.

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Posted by: 2thdoc ( )
Date: March 11, 2016 01:47PM

Wow, what an epic first post! I read it all and agree with your assessment and insight. Thanks for the interesting post.

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Posted by: blindguy ( )
Date: March 11, 2016 11:55PM

Oldprofessor and all:

Though I was never Mormon and have never lived in Utah (I've visited the state several times), I am well aware of many of the items you discussed in both your initial comments and your response to the (apparently) Mormon poster's response to those comments.

I would, however, like to make two conjectures based on 1) the fact that I was raised Roman Catholic; and 2) my interpretation of what is going on in the southern states today vis-à-vis religion and government.

In fact, there was a time when Roman Catholicism fully controlled the politics of not only what is now Italy but essentially all of the rest of Europe as well. Basically, that time was from approximately the fall of Rome (476 A.D.) to the great schism between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches that took place around 1000. Even after that, however, the Roman church dominated the life and politics of central and western Europe until Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation of the 1400s. The attempted destruction of both Judaism and Islam led to the Spanish Inquisition, and the result of the Protestant Reformation was a series of inter-European wars that lasted for almost 200 years. The upshot of these wars was that the Roman church lost most of its political and legal authority in all of the European countries outside of Italy, France, Spain, and Portugal. However, even those countries would eventually sway under the yoke of Roman church authority--the French Revolution of 1788 was as much a rebellion against Roman church authority as it was against the country's hereditary despot. Ultimately, the Roman church lost its authority in Italy as the result of the uniting of that country under secular rulers during the 1860s and its only real authority today extends to only Vatican City. I suspect that over time, what has happened to Roman Catholic church authority will also happen to LDS church authority (even in Iran, people have been, when given the option, voting for more moderate and less religious people to run the country).

Regarding the southern states, while it is true that there are still a few dry counties (most notably around Huntsville, Alabama), no single religion (not even the Baptists) has the kind of sway over the policies of a single state as the LDS church does in Utah. This is because, unlike the Mormons, the evangelicals in the south have never united under a single religious umbrella. As poster Poopstone noted previously, Baptists are divided among themselves under both racial and liturgical lines. In addition, both Methodists and Pentacostalists (Assemblies of God) inhabit a much more significant portion of the southern state populations than minority religious groups do in Utah, making it much more difficult for a single religion to control the destinies of these states as the LDS church does in Utah.

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Posted by: nevermo ( )
Date: March 12, 2016 12:11AM

can I get an amen? AMEN oldprofessor. I lived in Utah county for 6 years, age 15 to 21, very formative years in a very fu&ked up place, you've articulated what I felt for those six long years. from age 21 my work [commercial oil field divivng] has taken me to many different cultures around the world in 17 years.

the only comparable culture is Koran influenced societies. don't get me wrong, some of the best people I've met and befriended were both morman and muslim, it's not the people, it's the institution. thanks for so succinctly stating the nevermo experience of Mormon utah

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Posted by: Villager ( )
Date: March 12, 2016 12:13AM

Only three years in Utah?
You are a fast learner.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: March 12, 2016 12:37PM

Great analysis by Old Professor.

I'd add to this by including the history of theft by Mormons in the pre-Utah period:


https://launiusr.wordpress.com/2012/05/18/mormon-nauvoo-and-the-problem-of-theft-of-non-mormon-property/

https://launiusr.wordpress.com/2016/03/04/what-were-the-origins-of-mormonnon-mormon-conflict-in-1840s-nauvoo/


Other closed groups like the Amish have faced discrimination but have largely been left alone. I think the Mormons would have been left alone as well if they themselves were not the source of many of their problems.

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Posted by: kjensen ( )
Date: March 12, 2016 12:54PM

A very insightful observation regarding the Mormon church. I have come to believe after leaving the church and examining its history more critically, that the Mormon church probably would have withered away after the death of Joseph Smith, but for the availability of the western territories where they could isolate themselves and build their empire. In Utah and the surrounding areas, Brigham was able to use his dictatorial powers to control government and society. Consequently, the desire to control everyone and everything still runs deep in Mormon communities.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: March 12, 2016 02:59PM

Mormons would tell you that you think too much. The "Survival Guide" to being Mormon is by checking their brains at the doorway to the church on Sundays and using tunnel vision.

Hopefully there are enough non-Mormons where you live that you can find a sense of community within the larger community where you can feel a part of and be welcomed for the person that you are. Utah is slowly but gradually becoming more diverse with each passing generation.

Progressive thinkers are the future and the state will eventually catch up to the outside world. It's still a sheltered cloister for the Mormon community, where they feel empowered and emboldened to live their religion without fear of persecution. I suppose it didn't occur to them (or maybe it has?) that they have become the persecutors as they discriminate openly who can partake of the sacrament and covenants within its confines and continues to exert an inordinate amount of control and power in the halls of government there.

One of the Mormon teachings is that a group/band of LDS men will come together in the last days to save our country from destruction. They need each other to feed off each other's strength. Safety in numbers mentality and Groupthink etc.

You see that especially in Utah and perhaps Idaho to a lesser degree.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2016 03:33PM by Amyjo.

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Posted by: iris ( )
Date: March 14, 2016 07:37PM

Big LOL for these two statements from the TBM:

“Mormons tried the live and let live approach in New York, Ohio, Missouri, and Illinois before finally trekking west.”

“Even after departing the confines of the United States there were armed incursions by the Federal Government to try to ‘deal’ with them.”

Banking fraud, polygamy, burning down a newspaper (to name a few) is an unusual way to "live and let live". There were already state laws against bigamy that they ignored when they were living in Ohio, Missouri and Illinois.

Utah became a territory of the US in 1850 with the governor appointed by the US President. That means that those people that lived in the Utah territory were bound by the laws of the land. The armed incursions by the Federal Government happened for a reason. The Mormons were not law abiding citizens (i.e. polygamy). In 1862, President Lincoln signed the Morrill Anti-Bigamy, and it took 46 years for Utah to become a state. But even then the Mormons were still practicing polygamy and lying about it.

Mormons have a deliberate slant on their history, closing their minds to actual history, and accepting the LDS leaders view of the church's persecution.

I give oldprofessor points for trying to communicate another viewpoint to a TBM.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2016 07:38PM by iris.

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Posted by: brettys ( )
Date: March 14, 2016 08:02PM

Thanks oldprofessor. I am late reading this, but I found your post fascinating.

This really made me open my eyes: "To wit: I remember hearing one of the Mormon "Apostles" state in a YouTube video that individuals from all faiths were welcome in Utah--as if that "acceptance" was a gift of the LDS church rather than a right guaranteed by the US constitution. This attitude of Utah being "ours" is subtle but pervasive, and it underlies the church's frequent interventions in Utah politics."

When you've lived here a long time (and raised in the faith,) things like that don't pop out at you, until someone takes the time to explain it. :)

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Posted by: RPackham ( )
Date: March 14, 2016 08:24PM

To all non-Mormons in Utah:

Duwayne Anderson (scientist and author of the book "Farewell To Eden" about the conflicts between Mormon doctrine and science) did a study some years ago about the frequent Mormon claim that Mormons were healthier than non-Mormons, having longer life expectancies.

Anderson analyzed the data on which the claims were based and showed that Mormons have a longer life expectancy than non-Mormons IN UTAH, but not longer than the general US population. The startling conclusion: being a non-Mormon in Utah shortens your life.

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Posted by: cinda ( )
Date: March 14, 2016 08:53PM

I thoroughly enjoyed your post! Excellent assessment. I, too am a NeverMo, and currently living in a suburb of Salt Lake City. I certainly hope that "Big Brutha" read your reply in its entirety(I, too, would assume the individual to be Mormon). Thank you again for your very interesting and enjoyable post!

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Posted by: thatsnotmyname ( )
Date: March 14, 2016 11:48PM

Incredible insights. Thank you

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