Credit goes to Lloyd Dobler on PostMormon.org for the FYI about this one.

Unable to conceal any longer the historical fact that JS used a supposedly magical "peep stone" to hunt for dreamed-up buried riches, the LDS Church now says on its main website:

"The other instrument, which Joseph Smith discovered in the ground years before he retrieved the gold plates, was a small oval stone, or 'seer stone'. As a young man during the 1820s, Joseph Smith, like others in his day, used a seer stone to look for lost objects and buried treasure. As Joseph grew to understand his prophetic calling, he learned that he could use this stone for the higher purpose of translating scripture."

"Apparently for convenience, Joseph often translated with the single seer stone rather than the two stones bound together to form the interpreters. These two instruments — the interpreters and the seer stone — were apparently interchangeable and worked in much the same way such that, in the course of time, Joseph Smith and his associates often used the term 'Urim and Thummim' to refer to the single stone as well as the interpreters."

(Ref. http://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng )

Of course, there's an 'inconvenient' issue related to this latest bit of official Mormon 'spin'. The Book of Mormon states that the "interpreters" (stones) were "prepared that the word of God might be fulfilled" (Alma 37:24), and "Doubtless a great mystery is contained within these plates, and these interpreters were doubtless prepared for the purpose of unfolding all such mysteries to the children of men" (Mosiah 8:19).

Also, in early 1838 JS wrote the following about his early life and the beginnings of Mormonism:

"Also, that there were two stones in silver bows — and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim — deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted 'seers' in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book." (See "Joseph Smith - History" 1:35 - ref. http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1.35?lang=eng).

Clearly, JS didn't need the "stones" from "ancient or former times"; a "small oval stone" found by him "in the ground" in upstate New York sufficed "for the higher purpose of translating scripture"!

LOL!!

"The hassle of having to maneuver two stones in silver bows, all fastened to a bulky and unwieldy breastplate, made the prophet Joseph's task of translating sacred scripture, at times, rather onerous. For this purpose, the Lord provided a streamlined, more technologically advance design--a single, lightweight 'seer stone'--interchangeable with the older U&T model ... but much more CONVENIENT."

Is that what they're saying?

Wow, I guess God should have thought of that before having Moroni bury those onerous magical spectacles with the plates.

The sentence about finding the stone is misleading. The way the two parts (instrument found in the ground) and (before retrieving the gold plates) is, I would think, purposely constructed to infer that they were found in the same place--kind of like God let him find the 'seer stone' from the Hill Cumorah before he was able to get the rest of the items.

From the LDS Church's Friend magazine:

"Joseph also used an egg-shaped, brown rock for translating called a seer stone. The translating was done at Peter Whitmer’s home, a friend of the Prophet’s where Oliver Cowdery, Emma Smith (Joseph’s wife), one of the Whitmers, or Martin Harris wrote down the words spoken by the Prophet as soon as they were made known to him.

"Martin Harris said that on the seer stone 'sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by [the one writing them down] and when finished [that person] would say "written;" and if correctly written, the sentence would disappear and another take its place; but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates.'”

(Ref. http://www.lds.org/friend/1974/09/a-peaceful-heart?lang=eng )

So then why has the BofM been so extensively edited?

B.H. Roberts noted this problem about 100 years ago. He said that the book couldn't have been translated in this manner since MANY changes were later required. He said to cling to this story would be to open the church up to ridicule. He was right.

"Also, that there were two stones in silver bows — and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim — deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted 'seers' in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book."

I see a major problem here. Joe slipped the whole Urim and Thummim bit into the account of Moroni's visit years later...this is now included in the history that's at the beginning of the BoM. These "interpreters" weren't referred to as the Urim and Thummim until 1835, I believe, when W.W. Phelps suggested that MAYBE the Old Testament U&T and the Nephite interpreters were one and the same. Joe was quick to adopt the story and to insert those words into the fictional Moroni's mouth (JSH 1:35).

This one presents another problem:

"The other instrument, which Joseph Smith discovered in the ground years before he retrieved the gold plates, was a small oval stone, or 'seer stone'. As a young man during the 1820s, Joseph Smith, like others in his day, used a seer stone to look for lost objects and buried treasure. As Joseph grew to understand his prophetic calling, he learned that he could use this stone for the higher purpose of translating scripture."

Stories of Joe's money digging had become widespread, so Joe included in the JSH an explanation:

JSH 1:56: "56 In the year 1823 my father’s family met with a great aaffliction by the death of my eldest brother, bAlvin. In the month of October, 1825, I hired with an old gentleman by the name of Josiah Stoal, who lived in Chenango county, State of New York. He had heard something of a silver mine having been opened by the Spaniards in Harmony, Susquehanna county, State of Pennsylvania; and had, previous to my hiring to him, been digging, in order, if possible, to discover the mine. After I went to live with him, he took me, with the rest of his hands, to dig for the silver mine, at which I continued to work for nearly a month, without success in our undertaking, and finally I prevailed with the old gentleman to cease digging after it. Hence arose the very prevalent story of my having been a money-digger."

Apologists might say that he was only including the facts necessary to tell his story, and he would have included different details when relating the same story at other times, etc... However, I would say that this is a flat-out lie. His history of money-digging was not limited to this one excursion and he certainly wasn't just using a shovel...

That Friend article conveniently left out the hat.

Why is the seers stone referred to by an eye witness as "roughly the size and shape of an egg, though more flat" when the picture released to the world of his chocolate divining stone is nearly perfectly egg shaped, and not flat in any fashion?

he had more than one seer stone

Is a seer stone the same as a peep stone or is it different? So many magical stones, lol.

The seer stone wasn't helpful to find buried treasure or lost objects (Smith never found anything) but it was used useful for translating scripture?

after years and years of denial, the church also slipped in "treasure" hunter....

Looks like the anti- and ex- and post- Mormons were right all along. Joe was a treasure hunter, not a very good one..brigham was a raicist, polygamy was heavily preached and practiced and the first vision is a total fabrication with many do overs.

Nice church.....

I love how they brush off the treasure-digging like it was no big deal. So in other words, just because others were conning people using imaginary abilities we should just brush-off the fact that JS was doing it too.

As Gordon Hinkley might say, "Whey you see little flecks of history, brush 'em off. They're behind us."

Essay doesn't say much about JS getting in trouble for using the stone and failing to find any treasures.

They're awfully quick to say, "...like others in his day,..." as if to imply that Joseph Smith was one of many people translating books using a rock.


edit: And you have to read way into the article to find the rock info.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2014 11:37AM by cludgie.

exactly. Saying it was somewhat common for people to search for buried treasure is not the same as saying it was common to charge people money to look at a stone in a hat and get divine guidance on where the treasure is located. And then get taken to court over it... and then use the same technique to translate 'buried' plates that other people aren't allowed to see....

Ah the sad thing is that it will probably actually "innoculate" many people. If a lifelong member hears something from a trusted source (LDS.org) in that comfortable "churchy" tone that Mormons are trained from birth to respond to, it will take a serious jolt to recognize that what they are reading is logical proof that their church ISN'T true.

On the other hand, for a questioner or an exMo trying to prove to someone that the lesson manuals aren't telling the whole story, these essays will be very useful.

Is this actually one of the new essays that are supposed to admit to previous obfuscations and distortions?

If all of these issues are so understandable and non-threatening to faith, why has the church been HIDING them for generations?

The church will not admit to anything unless it is pushed up against the wall - and then it will say as little as it can get away with.

Who want's that kind of a relationship?

in Mormon Doctrine, McConkie states that

"A Urim and Thummim consists of two special stones called seer stones or interpreters...ordinarily they are placed in a breastplate over the heart".

"Joseph Smith received the same Urim and Thummim had by the Brother of Jared...separate and distinct from the one had by Abraham and the one had by the priests in Israel... The Prophet also had a seer stone which (speaking loosely ) has been called by some a Urim and Thumim (Doctrine of Salvation vol 3: pp222-226)"

Also quotes Joseph Fielding Smith saying this seer stone is now in the possession of the Church.

Per Peep Stones: McConkie basically says they are the Devil's counterfeit of the seer stone. "the devil gives his own revelations to some of his followers through peep stones or crystal balls".Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery were wrongly influenced by such, he says, and were reprimanded.

there we go then. Different definitions of seer and peep stones. Not interchangeable.

O.M.G…………

How can any Mormon read that admission and not roll their eyes?

Reading and thinking critically about what you read are two different things. For Mormons, so used to turning off their brains whenever anything scriptural, doctrinal, or historical is mentioned, they will simply repeat the info, not realizing or caring that it is any different than the other narratives they've been fed all their lives.

Carefully worded so as to deceive.

Also, this idea that JS received greater and greater understanding of his prophetic calling -- what a fine bit of post hoc excuse manufacturing that is. JS never said anything about needing to learn the job. In hindsight he obviously made sh!t up as he went along, but that's a different matter.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2014 04:55PM by Stray Mutt.

to think I believed in this sh*t.

Anybody heard of the term "Spin-doctoring?"
It goes hand in hand with such terms as: propaganda, excuses, cop-out, "the devil made me do it," "it's the Lord's Will." hypocrite.
The Church mastered all of the above techniques and many more. In fact,

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.

Joseph had stones, all right. Those were used in many dark places and tight spots.

He searched and searched, but he never did find his scruples.

The U&T would have been a ridiculous looking apparatus.