Here is my former post

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1773599

So as an update. I have stopped wearing garments and told my wife I am not going back to church. We have had some good open discussions but she is stuck with being a TBM.

I need all the info I can get on Plagiarism in the Book of Mormon. I am doing my own research but any help would be great. I want to highlight a BoM and show comparisons and gift it to her. She has been incredibly reasonable so there is hope! Thank you guys for your support and 6 iron again I am sorry for being insensitive. I hope you read my apology. Thank you guys, I'll keep the updates coming, but just know I have appreciated all the advice and words of support, it means a lot!

Suid

p.s. Sorry for any misspelled words and bad grammar. I typed this super fast!

Also if anyone has a list or some personal research, let me know. I will give you an email so I can get that info from you guys or set up a way to exchange information. Thanks Again!!

This has some really good stuff...The late War written a great deal of time before the book of mormon (1816). Yet it reads exactly like it...

http://archive.org/stream/latewarbetweenun00inhunt#page/n13/mode/2up

Heres a comparison of the two (BOM & Late War)...

http://wordtreefoundation.github.io/thelatewar/


Also look up "Heaven & hell and its wonders" by Emmanuel Swedenborg. He wrote about the Celestial, tellestial, terrestrial kingdoms, outer darkness, administering angels some 50 years before the book of mormon and other mormon literature that the theology is based on.

Joseph Smith was also quoted of knowing or Emmanuel Swedenborg. I don't remember the exact quote but it was something like rubbishing him because he made no money of his ideas.

Theres the huge chunks of Isaiah he ripped off from the bible.


I'll see of I can dig up more stuff. But thats a good start for you.

"The Late War" thing is good to check, as obviously both words and text were lifted, as were personalities--Tecumseh becoming Teancum, etc. But fully 25% of the BoM is just copied and pasted from the 1769 edition of the King James Bible. The premise is freely lifted from Ethan Smith's "A View of the Hebrews," as well as other probably plots such as Solomon Spaulding's "A Manuscript Found." Spaulding died before the manuscript was published, and it sat there in the print shop where either Cowdery, Whitmer, or Rigdon (can't remember off-hand which one) worked and had access to it. Spaulding's family insisted that the Joseph Smith & Co. stole it, used it, and destroyed it. I have also seen Spaulding's manuscript called "a Manuscript Found on the Plans of Mormon." If that's true, even the name Mormon was ripped off. That wouldn't be a surprise, though, as everything in Mormonism is ripped off to some degree.

Truth is, there are elements of several contemporary books throughout the BoM, and the fact that the premise of the BoM was a naturally occurring premise during the early 19th Century, that the Native Americans descended from the House of Israel, and that North America had been home to great wars and slaughter. The story of the BoM is proof enough that it is a 19th Century novel, vice historical essay.

Just some free advice from some anonymous prick on the internet. Your plan is a poor one,and will probably backfire.

Love her more, don't try to battle with her over religion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2016 07:46AM by scotslander.

Noted. Thank you for your input. I do Love her.

I think you want to first learn for yourself, as you have already mentioned.

I disagree with the Lamanite's (ElderOldDog) approach, putting it in a lengthy letter can be a problem also. Too much information too quickly. Go slow at first, very slow, and slowly add to the information.

I'm a fan of the approach where you bring up little snippets that you have learned in conversation over dinner, or other opportune moments. And you bring it up in a way that doesn't put pressure on the other person to agree with you, or to challenge you.
Bring it up in a questioning way, something like,

Hairy Husband - I've been reading about Helen Mar Kimball, and how she married JS. Have you heard about her before?

Hot Wife - No

HH - She was Joseph's wife number (whatever). He was 37 and she was 14 years old.

HW - That's a little creepy

HH - Yeah it is, there is an official church essay on the subject of JS's polygamy, it's on LDS.org


Then move onto a different, non church related subject. Something more interesting, like about how you always wanted to visit Scotland to play golf.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2016 08:00AM by scotslander.

My advice, for what it's worth, is to take the personal victory and be patient. Meaning...she's accepting your personal decision and supports you, so don't go trying to change her. If she wants to remain active, support her, but don't force it. Eventually she will realize what you do.

The worst outcome is that it creates a rift between you and affects your marriage. Don't focus on the false mormon church, focus on your love for her and it will be worth it.

My 2 cents.

That is a good point. I think I am just excited over multiple good discussions. Loving Her is more important and I do love her. I think the best I can do is just do the research for my own sanity as well just because all of the years spent in it, it's something I need for me too. But I agree, bashing religions helps no one.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2016 10:59PM by Suid_AfrikaRM7.

Donofrio:

http://www.mormonthink.com/influences.htm



BOM cross referenced with the bible.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/bom/plag/long.html



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2016 11:08PM by Twinker.

Thanks for the reference to the late war. sounds just like the BoM.

Learn what there is to learn, then write her a letter explaining it all and then wait, patiently and reverently, for her to ask you what you know on the subject, and then humbly offer her your essay/letter. Don't tell her you know you're right and the church is wrong. Wait for her to tell you that. Let it be HER learning, not you instructing.

And then buy her golf clubs. Why? Why not!

I agree with the idea that trying to force someone out of a religion is as damaging and offensive as trying to force someone to stay in, or convert.

Be yourself, live a free and good, honest life, and let her witness the differences between who her church tells her you are (evil), and who she knows with her whole being is a good man. I also agree with studying the answers to any questions she has, but would not spout them as if memorized. Some of the times, just know how to show her where to read the essay on the LDS site, let her get the bad news from them.

Remember, she may be emotional and not logical.

You can show her every evidence you have, and it would only further her resolve because she "feels the spirit".

My humble advice is this:

Let her know your stance, and let her come to you. Don't press the issue, it can only make matters worse.

SHE has to be willing to change and that is not something you can do for her.

It may take years. Be patient, loving, and don't pass up those rare opportunities when she has a question.

DONT LECTURE OR ARGUE.

One of the best things you can do is get a copy of "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins" by Grant Palmer. Large sections of the book are specifically highlighting just how elaborately the Book of Mormon drawn upon the exact wording of the King James to prove that it cannot have been composed in any language but English first.

But here's a couple articles that will help you on your way:

http://infidels.org/library/modern/curt_heuvel/bom_kjv.html

http://infidels.org/library/modern/curt_heuvel/bom_bible.html

And one example from Grant Palmer's book: The scene in the book of Alma in which Aamon raises King Lamoni from his sleep steals not only phrases of exact language from the King James but an entire plot line: the raising of the Lazereth by Jesus.

I quote, "The story of jesus raising lazarus from the dead in John 11 arguably serves as a source for Alma 19. Note the common phrases, which I have placed in italics, and the seven common motifs in both stories. In Alma, about 90 B.C., Lamoni and his wife

"SENT and desired that he [Ammon] should come ...and some say .. HE STINKETH ... He is not dead, [Ammon said,] but SLEEPETH ... [and] he SHALL RISE AGAIN ... Ammon SAID UNTO HER: BELIEVEST THOU THIS? AND SHE SAID UNTO HIM ... I BELIEVE ... [And] HE AROSE ... (ALma 19:2, 5, 8-9, 12)

"Lazarus, in about A.D. 33, is dying and his sisters

"SENT unto him ... [Jesus saith,] This sickness is not unto death, ... [for] Lazarus SLEEPETH ... [Then] jesus Saith unto her, Thy brother SHALL RISE AGAIN ... Jesus SAID UNTO HER ... BELIEVEST THOU THIS? SHE SAITH UNTO HIM, Yea, Lord: I BELIEVE ... [but] by this time HE STINKETH ... [Jesus spoke a]nd he that was dead CAME FORTH ... (John 11:3-4, 11, 23, 26-27, 39, 44)"

That's the end of my quoting Palmer's book, but I want to make one more point. If you watched the Mormon Stories episode with Jeramy Runnells, Jeramy makes a potent point about what he calls Joseph Smith's "modus operandi" –– that is that Joseph would take someone else's material and creatively switch letters around, switch plot points around, and pass it off as his own original work. Watch that interview here: http://mormonstories.org/jeremy-runnells-and-his-letter-to-a-ces-director/

On my mission, I couldn't help but notice that every verse in the Book of Mormon had a "sister" verse or story in the Bible, but I was drinking the koolaid too deeply back then to realize what I was on to. I thought it was part of a divine plan to corroborate the Bible: an example that two similar stories could happen on two different continents to two different peoples who believed in the same God. The truth? One book was an informant for the writer of the other. Who, how, when, where the book of mormon was composed: none of these can be proven perfectly. The main thing to focus on is that there is sufficient proof that the Book of Mormon was composed in the English language first relying heavily on the King James Bible. It is no translation of a lost language called reformed Egyptian and it is no real history of a people who ever existed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2016 09:06AM by Cold-Dodger.

Some have referred to the BoM as "Bible Fan Fiction."

Yeah, I think Scotlander is right.

Really evaluate what you hope to accomplish with this present.

It will probably look to her like an ambush. "I wanted pearls. He just wants to destroy who I am." Remember, Mormons and Mormonism are inseparable. You can't cut one, without cutting the other.

Also, Cold-dodger has an excellent book recommendation. It was even sold at Deseret book once upon a time.

When animals are attacked, the either flee, or fight. Unless you want her to flee, or fight, avoid attacking. Also, what you see as a helpful article or highlighted book, may look like an attack to her.

Get the book "Studies in the Book of Mormon" by B. H. Roberts. Roberts (d 1933) was a General Authority and assistant church historian (edited the History of the Church).

She should welcome the view of someone so high in the church.

He concluded that the Book of Mormon could have been written by Smith, and compared it with Ethan Smith's (no relation) "View of the Hebrews" that was published in 1825, listing the many, many parallels.

But - as others have said - take it real slow!

I have some advice. Remember that you cannot reason someone out of something they did not reason themselves into. IF your wife has an emotional bond by faith to the LDS Church's claims, your research doesn't mean a thing to her.
I suggest building a strong bond, making your love and relationship #1, then going very,very, very slow and and tip toe around her faith based belief and leave it to her decide IF she has any desire to explore the information.

Your research has the power to completely destroy your relationship and marriage. Remember that, please.

Do the research, there are thousands of articles, the CES letter is very concise and handy.

First have her read the Church's essays as that will open her mind to things she probably didn't know.

Read RPackham's articles, the CES letter for your own edification.

I'd recommend going to church with her, even if you don't believe.

If you're into investigating plagiarism, go to SS with her, and pipe up by bringing up things like Alma 7:10 and why the BoM version of the Lord's Prayer is missing a few things.

You'll go far if you're a Christian who finds things amiss with Mormonist theology.

Here you go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAGasQ7j_ZI

You can have all the best evidence in the world, but if she isn't ready for it, it will only be threatening to her.

I think the best thing you can do is be much happier outside the church than you ever were in it. Be an example of how much better life can be without the church.

I wonder how this remark would work: "Dear Wife, if the BoM is really true, I want to know it, understand it, and live it. But if it were demonstrably false, and uninspired of God, would you have the intellectual and spiritual courage to disavow it?"