During the recession, Utah had one of the highest rates of home foreclosures in the U.S. IMO it would be very difficult for many if not most low and middle income people to consistently fork over that much money to a church without wrecking havoc on the family finances.
I'm not surprised by that, especially where the cultural thing is to have one income because the woman is expected to stay at home and raise future tithe payers. The foreclosure crisis also hit the wards that met in the local chapel very hard, as they had to combine both wards. I'm going to assume that's because many of the members had to move to an area with a lower cost of living, and for some, that meant Utah. Yet, for those who end up declaring bankruptcy and file for chapter 7 which is one that can stop a foreclosure, the Morg still expects tithing even at the expense of making those court payments.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2016 03:18AM by adoylelb.
after my husband left me and I was so depressed I could barely get off the bed for over a year. I'd get up to take my kids to school and get back up to go pick them up and get them something for dinner. He gave me $200 a month.
We were financially very stable before he left. I had perfect credit before I married him and until he left me.
I declared 13 though and paid for EIGHT YEARS. The courts get most of the money. I suffered greatly for doing that. My kids and I lived as far as I'm concerned in poverty.
In my neighborhood, it is a lower middle class neighborhood, I don't believe any of my mormon or otherwise neighbors are close to bankruptcy. There isn't the "need to keep up with the Jones'" attitude here.
I'm sure there are many mormons who are just barely hanging on. I was also not a nonworking mother. I had a job even when he left. I work doing medical transcription and I could work as much or as little as I wanted, which made it difficult to be motivated. I could always sleep rather than work.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2016 08:07AM by cl2.
By the sound of it...we might be finding out in the near future...more derivatives fall out and no one went to jail in 2008 so lets do it again...great country where crooks run the money show and even have their own personal polotician...bought and paid for..Iceland had the right idea but throw away the key...newer generations have no fear of borrowing or credit or the staggering interest even a low interest mortgage will cost...i keep hearing sobering stats on debt in this country...theres just way too many are two payments away from homeless...id bet the states is no different...thousands of trucks being exported from here to the states...rumor is we have a subprime vehicle finance bubble...hmmm...oh well party on...let them worry about their money...trillion dollars in student loan debt...old dog...please stand and explain a trillion to the class...the oil patch has hit the skids here...most made good money the last ten years...hardly any put a dollar away for the rainy day...thats old school...i always found it interesting that the root meaning of mortgage...is death...great choice of words...then theres the family who lost their TRAILER in the ft mac fire this week...they paid 750000 for a trailer...sure hope their insurance covers it...seems a bit cracked to me...place should be renamed Ft. Crackmurry
Having a low-interest mortgage has been an unmitigated blessing to me. I pay less for my mortgage and condo fee than I would be paying in rent. My housing payments stay largely stable from year to year, unlike rents which constantly get jacked up.
Owning my own home has allowed me to build personal wealth (equity) in a way that was only a dream before. In addition, in eight years it will be fully paid off.
I think the secret is to not buy more house than you can truly afford. I have also been fortunate in that my job is extremely stable.
There is now a means test, to decide whether or not you qualify to do a chapter seven bankruptcy or not. Chapter seven discharges all of your debts. If you're theoretically able to pay some or all of your debts eventually through a chapter thirteen, the courts will deny you the chapter seven and recommend that you do the chapter thirteen. Anyone who has enough money to donate ten percent of their income to "charity" (and you have to use that term loosely when calling the mormon church a charity), should be denied the chapter seven route. The creditors should get that ten percent of your income for the next seven to ten years, and not the church. So it should be goodbye to your temple recommend for the next ten years if you're going to bankrupt. When you bankrupt, your financial estate is managed by the court, and not by you.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2016 09:36AM by azsteve.
You say "should" be denied chapter 7 protection if a filer is still paying tithes and filing at the same time.
The courts do not enforce such a stipulation to my knowledge. That's overreaching into the Constitutional liberties rights of citizens to worship how, where, and what they may.
When I worked for the Treasury Department for twelve years as a tax collector we did not insist someone who was having trouble paying their debts forego their tithes. Especially if that person was a pastor or reverend for a living, and had to set an example for their flock.
That was the *official* policy. We didn't discriminate though on the basis of title in the church if the patron was a minister or not. If they were adamant about paying tithes we included that as part of their necessary budget test.
Beliefs are so personal and people passionate about them, I for one am thankful we live in a country that does not force us to choose what god to serve, or between Caeser and the book.
What you describe is discrimination at its worst, because not everyone receives the same consideration. If a person saved 10% for retirement, "untouchable" but in a regular savings account, as sacred a belief to him as a church is to others, a personal belief, that money would have been taken, correct? So, if donated to a belief in god, regardless if it goes toward building malls or whatever, untouchable, but if responsibly held for retirement, too bad.
No, because retirement accounts are off limits as well, if they're mandatory. Where they are voluntary, then it is looked at as to how much is divested from earnings to a retirement savings account, and the government can ask the taxpayer to consider reducing their savings but may not require them to.
That being said, a taxpayer who willfully avoids paying their taxes does not become immune to seizure of property including bank accounts and other assets if they do not resolve their indebtedness issues with the government.
If a taxpayer is having extenuating hardship they can even be placed into a hardship account which prevents them from garnishment on their bank &/or wages or pensions including Social Security. If SS is their sole income, that automatically qualifies a taxpayer for an immediate hardship assuming they don't have vast amounts of cash lying around.
But they have to request it. It isn't offered to them. Nothing is assumed.
The hardship may also need to be verified depending on how much is owed.
I guess that possibly, this is just another example of abuse by the mormon church, of otherwise reasonable things. But I still can't see that a person's decision to pay tithing through a bankruptcy should be protected by the bankruptcy courts. If you put yourself in the position of someone who is considering extending credit to someone else, I can't imagine that asking a person about their religious tithes would be allowed when considering extending credit to them. Perhaps the threshold for exempt property in a bankruptcy should be seriously lowered for tithe payers. Paying tithing is a personal choice of how someone spends their extra money, not a legitimate expense. The courts shouldn't allow it anymore than they would allow a illegal drug, or an alcahol addiction to be financed through a bankruptcy. Freedom of religion is fine. But your creditors shouldn't be compelled to finance it for you against their will as you ask their forgiveness of your debts.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2016 10:45AM by azsteve.
I heard a radio program the other day and the hosts were discussing the economy and the middle class.
One stat they threw out was that of the families considered middle class, if they got hit with a $400 emergency, 45-50% would have to sell something, or borrow the money from a family or friend.
That's really scary, that many families living on the edge, paycheck to paycheck.