So lately here I’ve been doing some research into medieval Islam, in particular specific scholars who abandoned Islam. I have found quite a few that I find extremely interesting and even inspiring.

In my life, since my shelf broke and I left, I’ve struggled to find a scope or meaning. Many people who I know have classified me as having misanthropic tendencies… one of which is my hatred for the structure of society and human culture in general… which is why I hate the idea of this structured, vetted by society and the government, life.

There’s honestly not anything I want to do… I have plenty of interests.. plenty of things I’d say that I'm good at… but there’s not a single thing that makes me think “Yeah I could do that”

I would love to write about my experiences in life… the path I’ve taken to get where I am today and how I am today.. the heavy toll the cult made me pay.. and my dissent and slide into atheism and general disgust for any form of revealed religion or just religion in general.. But I feel like what’s the point? I'm just one of another 1000 voices screaming to the world how much this fucking church sucks… how badly religion is ruining our world. Why should anyone listen to me instead of the other 999? And why the fuck would I want them to?

Feel very lost and confused with my life after Mormonism. I have so much good in it… good girlfriend.. acceptable job with benefits… time off… but its just standing still… I'm too poor to execute my proposal plan yet so I'm waiting on that… too poor for school right now to buy into societies plan for me… what’s left? Does anyone else struggle with this feeling of pointlessness? With disinterest in life’s future?



Anyways… back to the point. This one particular scholar I was reading about really caught my attention. His name was Abu Isa al-Warraq.. he was an early mentor and teacher of another great ex-islamic scholar, Ibn al-Rawandi.

Ill focus on Warraq because we know more about him as more of his work survived.

Theres a wiki page about him for those of you who would like to read up.. but Warraq was an early medieval Islamic scolar who abandoned Islam for Atheism and was a big figure in the critizism of the Quran, idea of a prophet, and revealed religion in general….



Now I'm not trying to start a religious war on the thread before my bones get jumped so just keep going.

If any of the reading ive been doing is correct… my understanding is that Islam was “revealed” to the earth through Allahs chosen prophet Muhammad, who lived about 570-650 AD. So lets just call 650 AD the inception of Islam because its easier..

About 200 years later in the 9th century we have al-Warraq, who has a growing animosity towards islam and religion at this point… and we also have many many many others that Islam deemed as Heretics because of there teachings. Seems to me that that 200 year point was a hotbed for doubt in Islam..

That made me think about our current point… Lets call the creation of the church 1830, with the publishing of the Book of Morons. About 200 years later we see another hotbed… this time with the Mormons… and Jeremy Runnels is our al-Warraq/al-Rawandi…



You think there’s anything to this 200 year mark? I really should’ve done research into other large religions to see if there’s any connection with heretical thought and the 200 year mark on religion.. but I got excited and wanted to post what I was thinking! Pure coincidence? Maybe its just the fact that the 9th century was a huge time for science in that part of the world… scientific method rings in my head… just as the late 2000s are for America….

I think civilizations of a grande scale do fit a general pattern.

I believe large organizations, such as the Mormon church, do tend to follow a pattern.

For me the pattern is that the fervor that comes with a newfound passion pushes them to the top. Up, up,up. But the problem is that once they get there, the fervor is gone. They are usually top heavy at this point, and the divide comes in the group. Classes are created. There is no longer a feeling of "We are all in this together."

It suddenly seems to the ruling class like enforcement of an ever stricter agenda is the only way to maintain the empire. See China. See Mormonism.

As America is no longer "in this together" and the middle class disappears, the dream is dying.

In the Mormon church, the leaders are not "in this together" with their members. The members have become necessary pawns that enable the elite class. The elite Aryan class that is. Your wallet gets you to the top, not your spirituality, kindness, or love.

200 years does seem to be a common number--says I who is not a history buff.


But, the other part of your post is what interests me. I share your "what's the point?" attitude for the most part. Sometimes in life it helps to "look at the big picture" in order to get your bearings. But when you look at the big picture of the world the opposite is true and rather than finding inspiration, I more often find spiritual malaise instead. You can put on your rose colored glasses and start pin pointing the good, but your peripheral vision still sees around the roses to the daunting trajectory of the masses.

I am an existentialist I would say, which is "a philosophical theory or approach that emphasizes the existence of the individual person as a free and responsible agent determining their own development through acts of the will."

I am just egotistical enough and selfish enough that I crave accomplishment. On top of that, I am an extreme introvert and that leaves me not needing to please anyone but myself for the most part although I gladly accept praise. I become the "point." I do what I do for me and I don't level off because coasting is the thing that scares me more than anything in life whether the world is going to hell in a hand basket or no.

Sometimes "selfish" just means taking care of yourself because that is all you have control over. And since you won't live that long you aren't in danger of the dreaded "200 year start of the decline."

When you are looking at life from the other end, you will be glad you pushed through and just did it.

Damn, that was a good post. Lots to think about...

Very interesting post, buriedego. Thanks for posting--I learned a lot, and I find I agree a lot with your feelings.

Don't let people accuse you of being misanthropic. You simply have high standards--you expect a lot of others but, best of all, you expect a lot of yourself. I find this very inspirational. The planet needs more folks like you providing reality checks for the rest of us.

I recently read Yuval Noah Harari's "Sapiens." He's an anthrologist, and he wrote about human history, and how we are different from other species (including other species of humans). My main take-away from the book was how other species rely solely on objective reality--the sun coming up, the recognition of faces of their fellow tribe members--but Homo sapiens have learned to use IMAGINED reality to forge alliances across huge numbers of our peers. Thus we use money and political systems (capitalism, communism) and sports affiliations and language and, yes, religion to find commonality with other critters whom we would probably fear and attack without our shared imagined reality.

So, religion has its purpose. The problem is that objective reality always trumps imagined reality--DNA evidence contradicts the Book of Mormon, for example--but folks feel extremely threatened when their imagined reality is questioned, because they've invested so much emotionally in it being correct. That's less of a problem with the animistic religions of hunter/gatherers or the polytheistic religions like the ancient Greeks or the Hindus, because in those cases the assumption is that different people can and do worship different deities. But it's a huge problem with basically ALL the monotheistic religions--turn your back on us and you're turning your back on the one, true God. So, acolytes feel justified in avenging this slight against their deity, and apostates have this overhanging feeling that they've chosen an empty pointless existence.

As to the 200-year mark, I think all religions face pressure because globalization and the internet have greatly expanded access to objective reality, which is inexorably proving our imagined realities to be incorrect and arbitrary rather than rooted in actual fact.

So, I think you're just ahead of the curve. By being so you're taking one for the team, so to speak. I don't know if this adequately addresses your concerns, so maybe others can chime in and more directly reply.

Thank you both for your posts so much. It’s a delight to hear similar opinions and also great words of encouragement and enlightenment. And yes you much more than adequately answered my points!

I really love that concept presented. Objective vs. imaginative… Makes me wonder about how differently this earth might looks if our species hadn’t thrived… but I “imagine” that the reason we thrived is specifically because of that imaginative reality.. we could ask why and then experiment to find answers or just make up what sounded best. As much as I hate current human society and culture, I still wouldn’t want to live in anarchy, and im betting it would be without the capability to live in that imaginative reality. With an objective reality I “imagine” that would be much more difficult..

So what’s better then? Is it better to live with our imaginative reality, enabling us to soar to heights previously never known yet also lies, deception, delusion, and distaste abound… or is it better to live with constant truth and plainness but in an assumingly much, much simpler and less… comfy… life?

I like to think that those of us who have found the light and fucking smashed those shelves.. I feel like we have found an interesting mix of objective AND imaginative reality. We look at things objectively but yet still with the ability to imagine. We can pick and choose.

To blue.. I really liked that last line. It echoes what I believe to be a huge factor in why I see a point in living… I have a big enough ego that I do want to get to the end of my life, look back, smile at all the troubles I’ve had, and say “Yup. Looks like I left a big enough scar on the earth. Fuck it.”



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2016 12:52PM by buriedego.

You take the good,
You take the bad,
You take them both,
And there you have,
The facts of Life!

Now where have I heard that before? And why did Tootie get voted off DWTS?

Great thread you started buriedego.

Sometimes I dream of the world crashing and suddenly having so many less people, so many less plastic bags for dolphins and whales to swallow, so many less robotic people staring at their small screens, and nobody in line to see the Van Goghs but me--none of those horrible people who don't even know the genius they are looking at!

But that's the thing as you point out. None of the bad parts can be stopped without stopping the good parts too.

Writing helps us to clarify who we are. It also helps us to define our life's purpose.

Like my friend, BlueOrchid, I consider myself an existentialist. My twist is that I'm an existential theist. I believe in God, but to me, I'm more interested in what others believe or don't believe. I've found my life's purpose in a way I never intended. Life is beautiful, but the people on this board are so fucking amazing and REAL! Sure, there's some snarkiness, ignore anyone who puts you down. I, for one, would like to read about your life's journey and what you're learning.

I find Islam fascinating. I don't think your posts would be breaking any rules if your posting about your own journey out of Mormonism. Very best wishes, The Boner

Thanks again... Blue I know.. 7 billion is too much for me and this world...

Boner.. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. Maybe I'll start sketching up plans for a draft!

buriedego Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'll start sketching up plans for a draft!


Fuck yeah!! Go for it!!