In another thread, poster "Fetal Deity"--commenting on the apparently differing perspectives held by Spencer W. Kimball and Ezra Taft Benson on the subject of dealing with animals (not shooting little birdies vs. throwing small mice into roaring fires)-- observed:

"I would have loved to see a confrontation between 'Don't Kill The Little Birds' Kimball and your grandfather over an event like the one you describe.

"That would not have ended well! : ("

("I would have loved to see a confrontation between 'Don't Kill The Little Birds' Kimball and your grandfather over an event like the one you describe," posted by "Fetal Deity," on "Recovery from Mormonism" bulletin board, 20 July 2011, 4:52 a.m.)
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I never found myself in the crossfire between SWK and ETB on hunting and such, but I did wander into their sights one day over how they each differently handled my breaking of the Sabbath.

In 1980, I moved my then-small family from Virginia to Arizona, where I was soon to start a new job as the editorial cartoonist at the "Arizona Republic" newspaper in Phoenix. We stopped off during our final leg in Salt Lake City.

At the time, my parents were in temporary living quarters, awaiting the final touches being put to their new digs up on the Salt Lake City's East Bench (Northpoint). Until that was done, they were living in a small home down in the valley, right next door to a house that was occupied by then-president of the Mormon Church, Spencer W. Kimball, and his wife, Camilla.

It was on Sunday when we pulled all we owned in a U-Haul truck over to my folks' borrowed abode. We were on a tight schedule, heading down to Arizona the following morning, so we had to keep moving--literally.

My parents had given us some of their old furniture to use in our own home. It was in their house next to the Kimballs and, given our time constraints, I decided to go ahead and pack it into the back of our U-Haul, even though it was the Sabbath.

That same day, a guest at our parents' temporary residence happened to have been my grandfather ETB, then-President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. He had come over for a meal with the family. Being a dutiful Mormon boy at that time, I felt nagging pangs of guilt at the thought of packing up housewares on the Lord's day. So bad did I feel about this that I decided it was worth justifying my actions to my grandfather, in the hope that he would see our predicament as a good enough reason for violating the thou-shalt-keep-the-Sabbath-Day-holy rule. So, I said to him, "Grandpa, sometimes you have to pull the ox out of the mire."

I should have known better.

He responded matter-of-factly and unsympathetically, "Sometimes it's you who puts the ox in the mire in the first place."

Ouch. Thank you for your support.

Despite his tough talk, I still had that new job to get to, so I rejected the words of the prophet and I went ahead with the van-loading. It was late afternoon as I began to pile my parents' donated furniture into the U-Haul.

As I was standing at the back of the truck, who should come up to the fence behind me but Spencer W. Kimball.

I felt like a kid caught raiding the cookie jar, as all my sins passed before my eyes.

Fortunately, standing in his backyard just a few feet from me, Kimball's demeanor put me at ease soon enough. He was smiling and pleasant, dressed in a long-sleeved shirt and tie, no suit coat. Still a bit nervous, however, and feeling a sense of guilt mixed with embarrassment, I explained to the Lord's Prophet, Seer and Next-Door Neighbor that I was having to load up the U-Haul on Sunday because we needed to head south to Arizona early the next morning.

I further felt compelled to relate to Kimball the exchange earlier that day between my grandfather and me about my decision to go ahead and commit labor inside a U-Haul truck on the Lord's designated day of rest. I told Kimball how I had explained to my grandfather that sometimes one is faced with the necessity of pulling the ox out of the mire. I then repeated to Kimball my grandfather's response:

"Sometimes it's you who puts the ox in the mire in the first place."

Kimball smiled and said, "That sounds like something your grandfather would say."

Wow--and whew.

With that behind us, Kimball and I exchanged a few more pleasantries there at his fence, then he excused himself and walked back into his house through the rear porch door.

I returned to my task of stuffing furniture into the back of the truck, as Satan looked on approvingly.

A few minutes later, Kimball emerged from his house, walked across his backyard to the fence, smiled and handed me over the fence a plate of fresh tomatoes. He told me his wife Camilla had picked them--but didn't let me in on whether she had done so on Sunday.

I thanked him. Kimball smiled and went back into his house.

It was an interesting and telling experience. My grandfather had lectured me on breaking the Sabbath. In contrast, Kimball had not passed judgment, instead letting me know that he would have expected my grandfather do say what he did, then gave me tomatoes from his own garden.

As they say, by their fruits ye shall know them. And as the Savior said, he who is without sin, let him cast the first tomato.

On that particular day, back when I was still in the tight grip of the not-too-hip Mormon Church, I thought Kimball was one cool dude. (That was, however, before I did some research and found out what he thought about gays, interracial marriage and the curse of Cain).

My big, tough, no-nonsense, mouse-burning, Commie-bashing grandfather?

Well, I figured he was just being himself. :)



Edited 12 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2011 04:06PM by steve benson.

I have trouble, however, squaring it with his harshness about all things sexual. The Miracle of Forgiveness certainly isn't a compassionate book. It's an interesting split in him. I wonder, as President of the Mormon Church, if he had qualms about what he had written earlier? Perhaps, not since it was under him the letter on oral sex went down.

But he sure grew delicious tomatoes and--like Jesus hanging out with the publicans and sinners--shared them in a down-home, charmingly indulgent sort of way over his back fence with us commandment breakers. :)

If only he had been as Welcome Wagon-friendly to Gays, Blacks and the Sexually Balanced.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2011 06:14PM by steve benson.

I actually burned that book--the only time I recall burning one.

My guess is that SWK was closeted gay. How else does somebody conclude that masturbation turns you gay?

Add to that the fixation on all things sexual.

The guy tried to ban oral sex between MARRIED people.

That's some serious sexual repression right there lashing out.

Poor Camilla.

Not that I know either one of the gentelmen, but the putting the ox in the mire statement is a rather keen observation. Idk if it applied to your situation. Even without the the Sabbath day thing, it seems we tend to put oxen in the mire all the time only to spend a disproportionate amount of time getting it out.
I too read the Miracle of Forgiveness. After reading it I wondered what the miracle was. I think it means it'll be a miracale if you are forgiven at all.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2011 06:43PM by steve benson.

I know you're full of lots of great insider information, so it's no surprise that you had a related story with which to answer me! : )

My grandfather apparently felt confident that he would have a listening ear in Kimball and encouraged me to ask questions of SWK on the subject, via written correspondence (which I commenced with Kimball over the next several months and which my grandfather helped facilitate).

However, things didn't go as ETB wanted or planned. No such anti-evolution declaration was forthcoming from Kimball, although ETB told me that SWK agreed with Bruce R. McConkie's anti-evolution views. Well, that assurance got me no more than 10 cents and a cup of Postum, because Hinckley was for all intents and purposes running the First Presidency show at that point (as Kimball was becoming increasingly irrelevant due to age and infirmity), and there was no way in Mormon hell such a PR-disaster statement would be issued on Hinckley's watch.

My grandfather ultimately (and bluntly, without any real explanation) informed me that Kimball would be dispatching no such statement and, besides, that it wasn't necessary for my salvation, anyway. Talk about an about-face.

So, I guess you could say that ETB had yet another disagreement with Kimball--and ultimately with Elohim--since it was the Mormon God that allowed Hinckley to act for Kimball on the evolution thing and prevent ETB's wishes for an official LDS condemnation of organic evolution from ever reaching the press release stage. Heh.

(I'll write about that episode here in more detail someday).



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2011 07:07PM by steve benson.

... on the church's own "Sasquatch-centennial?"

Sorry, but I just couldn't resist! ; )

Steve, how come your grandpa didn't make is own declaration when he became president, do you know?

This harnessing happened relatively quickly. ETB gave, as I recall, only one press conference as Church president (in which he did not answer questions) and after that was effectively shielded from the secular media. I, in fact, tried to make back-channel arrangements (through the Secretary for the Office of the First Presidency) for my own newspaper's publisher to meet with ETB after he became Church president and that request was firmly denied.

My grandfather's statements and actions were, I strongly believe, ultimately controlled from within from the Church's highest corridors of power where decisions were, and are, ultimately made by experienced, long-term, permanently-fixtured bureaucrats who move from one Church presidency to the next. (As Dallin Oaks privately admitted to me, anything of fundamental importance to the Church on which the LDS president wanted to act was subject to a sustaining vote by the Quorum of the Twelve. So much for an independent-acting Church president).

Moreover, ETB was only functional as Mormon Church president in any potentially meaningful sense of the word during the early years he was in that office. He became LDS Inc.'s head in late 1985 and by 1988-89 was entering decline to the point of eventual and effective incapacitation, both mentally and physically.

In short, ETB was co-opted and reined in from the beginning of his term as Church president by those tasked with protecting and advancing larger LDS Inc. interests (interests which eclipse even the desires of figurehead Church presidents. That's why I think that if Boyd K. Packer ever became Church president, he would similarly be managed by Church institutional interests greater than himself).

The nails in the coffin for ETB's control and leadership of the Mormon Church (if he ever really had or exercised that control and leadership) began being pounded into place by the late 1980s, when his mental and physical condition marked the beginning of the end for him in terms of meaningful awareness of, and participation in, administrative decision-making. (Keep in mind that in 1989, Hinckley and Monson secretly had legal authority to govern the Mormon Church transferred from ETB to them via ETB's autopening signature machine--a manuever that ETB was not present at to even witness. He died some five years later).

That's why, in my opinion, my grandfather wasn't issuing his own statements, be they ad hoc or formalized. He simply wasn't the man in charge. In a nutshell, it was Hinckley who really was running the Mormon Church. Having had a great deal of hands-on experience in taking the reins from the presidents he worked for, Hinckley was the go-to pro in situations where saavy, politically-keen decision-making was of paramount importance. I think it is no coincidence that ETB kept him over from the Kimball administration as his First Counselor. My grandfather knew that Hinckley could (and, in fact, did) run the show. Or at least his closest advisors knew that fact and persuaded ETB to retain Hinckley for that reason.



Edited 28 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2011 05:24AM by steve benson.

Thanks for this insight in to the inner workings of the church. Even as a new ex-mormon I still kind of thought that the church leadership ran the way that it stated that it did... Reading the above along with just thinking it through, it makes much more sense and should have been obvious all along.

Thanks again for all you do here!

Your grandfather isn't going to tell his grandson it's okay to load furniture on the Sabbath. I bet if it were the neighbor kid loading furniture in a truck and tried to justify it to him, he would have responded more gently.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2011 07:20PM by steve benson.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2011 07:21PM by steve benson.

No, maybe I could link to it. Oh that has to happen all the time because even the most virtuous are only human, and those held to the highest standard must not fail.

steve benson Wrote:
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Wait. There's a story there! You've not told us!! Please tell!!

Thanks for sharing it. LOL on the title, "Lord's Prophet, Seer, and Next-Door Neighbor". I can't imagine living in *that* neighborhood! You'd always be looking over your shoulder.

Nice story Steve.

Not to go off topic, but I cannot stand it when Mo's or Christians talk about Sunday as being the Sabbath. It shows utter and complete ignorance about the Bible, Judaism and worship. The Sabbath is Saturday - don't believe me, then go to Israel sometime on a Saturday and check it out....

Moreover, God never gave any kind of commands to the Gentiles - only to his people. Look at the NT. Did any of the apostles ever claim to have received revelation regarding God and Laws (besides the dude on the road to demascus claiming to have met Jesus right there)? No? Didn't think so...

Every religious group sees themselves as "God 's own people". Human egocentrism at work!

Where's Steve Benson? I miss him.

That is exactly how I would have predicted the reactions from both your grandfather and Spence.

Yes, SWK had major hangups about sex. I mean major. But I think he was one of the last genuinely nice guys they've had in the Big 15. Maybe Faust was also. But today, they are all just corporate hacks. And ETB was the John Bircher and rule stickler till the day he died.

the thread police hate old threads.

OK, I am an old thing.
Do you have to rub it in ?