Day is for honoring the dead in general?

Not sure I understand your point.
I do know that my mormon neighbors don't show much of anything towards Memorial Day. There were only 2 flags flying within 3 blocks yesterday. Mine, and a non-mormon neighbor. These are the same folks that fly the flag & blow up fireworks for 72 hours straight during Pioneer day.

was for visiting the graves of dead relatives-for honoring not those who had served but just anyone who had died.

I found it rather odd.

Maybe it's because mormons, military service & Utah don't mix. Utah is consistently the lowest percentage state when it comes to military service. Mormons also believe, erroneously, that serving a mission is equal to serving their country (Anne Romney made that statement & quickly found out differently). What amazes me, after living here for 12 years, are the Utah politicians that are very hawkish & think the US should go to war at the drop of a hat. Most of those same politicians never served. I guess that's fine for kids to be cannon fodder-as long as it's not their kids.

This may be a regional thing rather than a Mormon thing. I have quite a few Mormon relatives in the military who honor Memorial Day by attending military memorials. I had no idea until this post that anyone honored it in any other way.

This lack of service may have existed before and after World War II, but during that conflict many of my relatives fought and some died in Europe and the Pacific.

They were all young Mormon men from small towns outside of Salt Lake City.

notmonotloggedin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> was for visiting the graves of dead relatives-for
> honoring not those who had served but just anyone
> who had died.
>
> I found it rather odd.


My sister every year visits our parents' graves in Smithfield. She called me from the site yesterday. As usual, the place was packed, and people were parked for blocks around the cemetery.

In our ward in Provo, everyone on the block was expected to pay the Boy Scouts to put a flag up in their yard on every national holiday. The first year I was there they came around to collect and I told them basically that I didn't give a shit about a flag in my yard, especially not enough to pay someone to put it there.

So I figured I'd be the yard with no flag in our big 3 blocks by 4 blocks ward. But they always put one there anyway. I also noticed that my non-mormon neighbors also had one. I didn't ask whether they had paid the Boy Scouts. It was some kind of competition to see which wards had flags at every house. So they just put one up anyway. They had some kind of holder buried into the ground at each house.

Because they're obsessed with their dead ancestors and they don't know anyone who served in the military?

This is a great topic which I hadn't noticed before posting this question:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1823504,1824075#msg-1824075

It seems to be very true that mormons generally wont serve the country risking their lives, shooting at terrorists, yet they are just the ones who fill the coveted sit down in an office civilian jobs. I suppose it has something to do with what Machiavelli wrote 500 years ago that in a civilized capitalist society the upper class/nobility hires mercenaries (the poor and immigrants) to fight their wars.

Mormon's are the present upper class perhaps? at least in Utah?

Don't think so. As a once Mormon I served my country as an anti-terrorist soldier. I was part of a unit that had one non Mormon in it. The other guys called us the Mormon patrol.



poopstone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is a great topic which I hadn't noticed
> before posting this question:
>
> http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1823504,1824
> 075#msg-1824075
>
> It seems to be very true that mormons generally
> wont serve the country risking their lives,
> shooting at terrorists, yet they are just the ones
> who fill the coveted sit down in an office
> civilian jobs. I suppose it has something to do
> with what Machiavelli wrote 500 years ago that in
> a civilized capitalist society the upper
> class/nobility hires mercenaries (the poor and
> immigrants) to fight their wars.
>
> Mormon's are the present upper class perhaps? at
> least in Utah?

This is so not true!

You should count the number of dead Viet Nam veterans who died serving this country who were Mormon from the Morridor. They marched to their doom, because they were serving their country proudly the way they were brought up to be patriotic.

Do some research Amy. Utah is always at the bottom of the list of military enrollment. Vietnam was another story- there was a forced draft. Many mormons went of missionary deferments to avoid the war. Just google military enlistments by state, per capita. Utah is usually 50-52 on the lists (including Guam & Puerto Rico).

Mormons weren't dodging the draft unlike many of their brothers who were anti-war activists of that era. They went dutifully like the good little soldiers that they were, to their deaths.

The draft dodgers got a pass because they resisted. Mormons in general were pro-military, pro-government, and very patriotic. Moreso than the average American.

Across the board Mormons were drafted at the same rate as any other group. You did not have the resistance there as with other groups, by same numbers. They overwhelmingly went. And overwhelmingly didn't survive to return home.

I'm also talking Idaho when I say Morridor. The Morridor includes the stretch between Utah and Idaho where Mormons pioneered, governed, and still predominate to this day. When I went to a Viet Nam farewell in Idaho Falls during the height of the Viet Nam war, the football field was literally full of soldiers marching off to combat. That was only one round of many from my hometown.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2016 01:59PM by Amyjo.

"Mormons in general were pro-military, pro-government, and very patriotic. Moreso than the average American."

Hence our disagreement Amy. You would think that mormons, that parrot that sentiment, would put their money where there mouths are. But they don't. In fact it's the exact opposite. They are constantly the LOWEST state in military enrollment. Since you apparently won't check the facts, I've provided a link. Read & learn. Wearing a flag on your lapel or having a "support our troops" sticker on your car doesn't make you more patriotic than anyone else. Especially when you won't encourage your children to join our armed forces.

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/mil_tot_mil_rec_arm_nav_air_for_percap-navy-air-force-per-capita

Mormons served at the same rate as their compatriots did. During Vietnam the Mormon population was only several million, worldwide.

"By December 1965 there were 1,500 LDS servicemen in Vietnam. President Keith E. Garner, succeeding President Quealy, made South Vietnam one of the four zones of the Southern Far East Mission, and divided it into three districts. At the same time, the president of the Southern District called six men to act as district missionaries. They had success with other Americans, as well as with the Vietnamese. By February 1966, thirty Vietnamese were numbered among the Saints.

After February 1965, the buildup of American troops was rapid. By May 1966, there were an estimated 2,200 LDS military people in the country, organized into twenty groups and one branch (Saigon)."

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1980/08/the-churchs-years-in-vietnam?lang=eng

Considering how small the church was during those years on a global scale, there was an inordinate LDS military influence in Vietnam.

Mormon casualties constituted 589 of the total American troops killed. Considering Mormons make up less than 1% of the global population, 1% of the fatalities during the Vietnam war of US soldiers is representative of the population as a whole. They did not serve proportionally less than their peers, especially the draft dodgers and anti-war activists during that era.

There were some no doubt who were passive resisters. The majority by and large were not.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2016 03:06PM by Amyjo.

As a "Military wife" of a serviceman in Viet Nam, I was practically shunned in SLC. The place had no idea what to do with me.

Most of the "good" mormon guys figured out a way to go on a mission or go to college or, in fact...some of my relatives got farm deferments.

No one ever taught us, but we always got the feeling that kids who went into the military were just not as righteous.

I was there. I know what I'm talking about.

And, yes, when people started being drafted like flies, many "more active" mormon boys went into the military. But it was only because they HAD to!

And, yes, it burns me that Mormons (as well as many/maybe most other conservatives--such as d. --eeney) are as patriotic as he--, but do everything they can to get out of military service.

The missionary deferments were only good for the time they were on their missions. As soon as they came home they were eligible to be drafted again, which is what happened to many; or they enlisted.

My relatives take flowers to the graves of their departed loved ones and don't mention anything about those who died in battle.

Off topic a bit but this weekend marked the 100 year commemoration of the largest naval engagement in history fought off Jutland, Denmark in 1916. A huge British fleet fought a German fleet. At the end 25 ships were sunk, over 6000 British seamen died and more than 3000 Germans. While the British lost more ships it was considered a marginal victory for Britain which at the time had the world's largest navy. Everything is relative, I guess, but it does leave the usual question after the guns have fallen silent: "For what?"

My Mormon relatives always placed flowers on graves of loved ones, whether veterans or not, for Memorial Day. It's just what we did. Still do.

One of my aunts, long deceased, grew her own beautiful flower garden to make big, gorgeous bouquets of flowers for family. Her daughter has kept the property and turned the log house my aunt and uncle raised their 8 children in into an artist's studio. The flower gardens are gone (daffodils and tulips grace the outside of the studio, but not the irises and gladiolas and other garden types my aunt used to grow in abundance.) It's still a very peaceful place in the country like when auntie lived there.

When I was visiting two weeks ago I was able to place flowers on my aunt's grave. Something I didn't get to do when she died, as I wasn't able to go to the funeral. She was just a very loving person in life. She was good to everybody.

Memorial Day began to honor fallen Civil War soldiers. It evolved to honor all soldiers/veterans after WWI. Became a national holiday in 1971.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2016 12:52PM by Amyjo.

Probably because it's always acceptable to honor the dead, no matter if they died in war or not. The cemeteries usually have ceremonies, the Boy Scouts put flags on the veterans graves. Other people decorate their loved ones graves. Maybe they are the mother or father, or other relative or friend of someone who died in a war.
Honoring and celebrating life is always appropriate , in my view.

Great post. Thanks. I honor those who died in service as well as those who died. Being a human being often isn't easy and none of us asked to be one in my understanding.

I wasn't called to earth, it being "my turn."

Memorial Day used to be known as Decoration Day, a day in which people decorated the graves of their loved ones with flowers. Certain family traditions continue, I suppose.

http://reason.com/blog/2016/05/30/decoration-day

summer Wrote:


OH Yes!!! I forgot about that. That explains a lot.
Also, there are a lot of opinions about what is appropriate, which do not agree...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2016 09:53PM by SusieQ#1.

I know lots of non-Mormons who do the same thing. I think most Mormons understand the honoring those who died in the service of the country being the fundamental reason for Memorial Day. But it is a good opportunity to, at the same time, remember all friends and relatives who have died.

What's your point op?

There remains plenty to criticize mormonism with - your remark is not one of them. There is absolutely nothing wrong with honoring the dead on any given day, regardless.

Furthermore, for the rest of you loudmouths, a vast majority of U.S. mormons have been and are more than willing to serve their country.

My great-grandfather served with the First Army in WW1 along the Western Front during the Meuse-Argonne Offensive.

Both of my grandfathers served during WWII, one having joined the Army at the age of 17 and wound-up storming the beaches of Normandy during the early Summer of 1944 (yes, that D-Day). Both Purple Heart recipients, both serving with valor.

My Uncle was drafted and served in Vietnam and thankfully survived.
My Father was a pilot in the Air Force for 20 years.

All, super TBM. All extremely patriotic (even to a fault).

I had two companions that were on leave, one AF and one Navy, to complete their 2 year church missions. I have friends and friends of friends who have served or who are serving - many are LDS, some are not.

We won't get into my service...

But what a buncha c*ckamamie sanctimonious bullsh*t this thread is

:sad face:

I enjoyed the discussion.

In my opinion your reply was far more negative and antagonistic than his question.

is recognized by all people I know as a day to honor veterans. All the Mormons I know think it's a day to visit the cemetary and the graves of deceased loved ones (none of whom happen to be veterans.)

It is and observation that raised a question.

My mother loves going to visit dead relatives day. She always tried to get us to go with her. She'd tell us it was our duty to go visit these people that we never knew, and obviously never would. Funny thing, she never told us anything about these people. No stories, nothing. Nope, just dead people that she'd go visit. She never took flowers because she was too cheap for that. As far as I could tell she just went there to read the headstones. Weird.

My grandmother collected flowers from her garden in the morning and we would go to the cemetery where family members were buried. Many others brought flowers to the grave sites of loved ones. There was usually an honor guard ceremony for the soldiers who had fallen.

I mentioned the above to a coworker today, thinking that it might have been a custom unique to southern Idaho. "That's what we do, too!" This from an Illinois transplant to Florida.

On Memorial Day this year I had a glass of chilled mead and saluted a toast to Odin and all who fall in batter.

It had a lot more meaning than putting flowers on my grandmother's gravestone ever did.

I grew up non-mormon, outside of UT and there were few mormons in the area. It was celebrated by everyone I knew (also non-mormons) to remember any relative or friend who had died by placing flowers on the grave. Any who had served got a flag.

I don't think there is any difference between mo and nevermo on the question by the original poster.

I didn't realize that it was a formal holiday to honor those who had fallen in service to our country until I was an adult. I thought it was to place flowers on all graves. I don't know how it lost it's original intent.

http://www.usmemorialday.org/?page_id=2

Here in NY its a day to honor veterans--not anyone else who has died-it just doesn't have that meaning.

When we lived in UT however, it was observed as a day to visit the graves of anyone who had died.

We always called it decoration day. At least as far back as the early 60s.

Veterans day was the day we visited dead military family members.

In my 23 years of military service I always ran into mormons no matter where I was.

I've read that Memorial Day is the day honoring those who died DURING service.

Veterans Day is the day to honor those who have served in the past.

Armed Forces Day is to honor those serving now.

Not sure how accurate that REALLY is, but it makes sense.

Here's some pics from my hometown taken yesterday, of the Vietnam War Memorial @ Freeman Park, Riverside Drive in Idaho Falls to honor the 251 Idahoans who paid the ultimate sacrifice. It's a very moving memorial!

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13312827_10209023946212897_2901857328865888054_n.jpg?oh=3a81d46c7fe432fcf232fce64cf53c5f&oe=57C3A9D6

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13327481_10209023945452878_651351258665041318_n.jpg?oh=5de70b0d489ac11c89205c5606647516&oe=580C4313

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13325636_10209023945052868_2250236915976296454_n.jpg?oh=a934e6ac30e599978509b07dd25d34d3&oe=57CAF6A4

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13327558_10209023944692859_4635792400926855730_n.jpg?oh=a86fc43d2f6a6a984927e3a4e3d047a1&oe=57D207EE



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2016 10:41PM by Amyjo.

Wait... what??? It ISN'T for remembering deceased ancestors?? Mind=blown. Seriously. Been out of tscc for 2 1\2 yrs but never realized this. WOW. Just when I thought I knew everything normal people know.

Yes it is for remembering and honoring our deceased ancestors!

And for war vets and those who paid the ultimate sacrifice fighting in wars.

It started as a way to honor Civil War soldiers. Then became more of an event following WWI. It became a federal holiday only in 1970. It still is a day to honor our war vets and soldiers. Families are an add on.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2016 10:43PM by Amyjo.