Why Phelps waited 18 years to put it down into words is beyond me. Something that was as important as a dream only days before Joseph became martyred, was left unrecorded for so long does beg the question, why?

Nonetheless, here is Phelps version of one of Joseph's last dreams to the best of his recollection:

"In June, 1844, when Joseph Smith went to carthage and delivered himself up to Gov. Ford, I accompanied him, and while on the way thither, he related to me and his brother Hyrum the following dream:

He said: “While I was at Jordan’s in Iowa the other night, I dreamed that myself and my brother Hyrum went on board of a large steamboat, lying in a small bay, near the great ocean. Shortly after we went on board there was an “alarm of fire,” and I discovered that the boat had been anchored some distance from the shore, out in the bay, and that an escape from the fire, in the confusion, appeared hazardous; but, as delay was folly, I and Hyrum jumped overboard, and tried our faith at walking upon the water.

At first we sank in the water nearly to our knees, but as we proceeded we increased in faith, and were soon able to walk upon the water. On looking towards the burning boat in the east, we saw that it was drifting towards the wharf and the town, with a great flame and clouds of smoke; and, as if by whirlwind, the town was taking fire, too, so that the scene of destruction and horror of the frightened inhabitants was terrible.

We proceeded on the bosom of the mighty deep and were soon out of sight of land. The ocean was still; the rays of the sun were bright, and we forgot all the troubles of our Mother Earth. Just at that moment I heard the sound of a human voice, and, turning round, saw my brother Samuel H. approaching towards us from the east. We stopped and he came up. After a moment’s conversation he informed me that he had been lonesome back, and had made up his mind to go with me across the mighty deep. [Samuel died about one month after Joseph and Hyrum did.]

We all started again, and in a short time were blest with the first sight of a city, whose gold and silver steeples and towers were more beautiful than any I had ever seen or heard of on earth. It stood, as it were, upon the western shore of the mighty deep we were walking on, and its order and glory seemed far beyond the wisdom of man. While we were gazing upon the perfection of the city, a small boat launched off from the port, and, almost as quick as thought, came to us. In an instant they took us on board and saluted us with a welcome, and with music such as is not on earth. The next scene, on landing, was more than I can describe: the greeting of old friends, the music from a thousand towers, and the light of God himself at the return of three of his sons, soothed my soul into a quiet and a joy that I felt as if I was truly in heaven. I gazed upon the splendor; I greeted my friends, I awoke, and lo, it was a dream!

While I meditated upon such a marvelous scene, I fell asleep again, and behold I stood near the shore of the burning boat, and there was a great consternation among the officers, crew and passengers of the flaming craft, as there seemed to be much ammunition or powder on board. The alarm was given that the fire was near the magazine, and in a moment, suddenly, it blew up with a great noise, and sank in deep water with all on board. I then turned to the country east, among the bushy openings, and saw William and Wilson Law endeavoring to escape from the wild beasts of the forest, but two lions rushed out of a thicket and devoured them. I awoke again.”

I will say that Joseph never told this dream again, as he was martyred about two days after. I relate from recollection as nearly as I can.

PHELPS.

https://sethadamsmith.com/2011/06/22/joseph-smiths-last-dream-the-full-account-as-told-by-w-w-phelps/

Video version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q_vgg4WjMk

Thoughts?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2016 02:31PM by Amyjo.

This, like so many stories and incidents in Mormon history were recorded from memory many years after the events actually took place. This one appears to have been published some nineteen years after Phelps first heard it.

The official History of the Church by Joseph Smith is full of later recalled words and events without the slightest indication that they were not recorded at the time.

The well known and often quoted King Follett funeral sermon was actually a "cut and paste" version using portions from four separately recorded private journals. A fifth version has recently been discovered.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2016 02:53PM by Templar.

It does seem strange on its face that recording important biographical pieces would take so long. Suffice the followers of Smith were in tatters and ruins at that time as they were driven from one place to another. Maybe they just didn't have the luxury of writing things down the way we do today, the way they were constantly on the move and living in dire straits?!

The extensive rewording of Mormon History goes much deeper. In many cases there were notes recorded (some verbatim) by Joseph's official scribes. However, when they were published as his official history words were changed to make them appear to be Joseph's actual words and embarrassing statements such has Joseph having a beer or hitting a person on the nose were removed without indication.

For what it's worth, Joseph Fielding Smith emphatically stated that a truer history has never been published. This is a damnable lie to say it in the kindest words possible and is a total misrepresentation of the facts. Actually, Jerald Tanner has carefully documented thousands of changes in the published church history. Why Joseph Fielding Smith felt it necessary to tell such a lie has never been made clear.

Dean Jessee, a more honest church historian, stated that the official history should never be relied upon or quoted directly, but rather the original source should always be consulted before citing.

"Oh, what a tangled web we weave. When first we practice to deceive!"

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2016 04:12PM by Templar.

I did not realize JS had ever lived in Dire Straits. Isn't that a little town outside Carthage? Seems that would have been recorded in church history somewhere. Do you have a citation?

It's just called poverty with a capital P. :)

Twas a little town on the edge of somewhere, that he managed to escape from. But not for long.

I'm hoping that the boat symbolized the Church they started. Looking forward to watching it sink.

Maybe Law being devoured by the lion symbolized him being lionized, at least in the eyes of non-LDS.

Well, William Law lived to the ripe old age of 87, outliving Smith by a very long country mile! He was hardly devoured by anything other than old age and infirmity. :)

His bio according to wikipedia describes the animosity between himself and Joseph right before Joseph was assassinated:

"Law and his wife joined the Church of the Latter Day Saints in 1836, through the efforts of John Taylor and Almon W. Babbitt.[3] He led a group of Canadian saints to Nauvoo, Illinois, in 1839 and in 1841, Joseph Smith chose him to be a member of the First Presidency.[4]

As time progressed, Law became troubled by certain practices of Smith. He felt the prophet was uniting church and state in Nauvoo, Illinois, by evading extradition to be tried for crimes in Missouri. He also thought Smith used his church authority to sway political outcomes. However, it was Smith's covert practice of polygamy that caused Law to completely separate himself. Rumors circulated that Smith had made several proposals to Law's wife Jane, under the premise that Jane Law would enter a polyandrous marriage with Smith.[5] Law and his wife confirmed that these rumors were true. However, according to Alexander Neibaur, he was told a rumor that Jane Law had actually asked to be sealed to Smith after Smith had refused to seal her to her husband. According to the rumor, Smith had denied the couple because he thought William Law was guilty of adultery, though he did not tell Jane Law his reasons.[6] However, years later, according to Ann Eliza Young (wife #19 to Brigham Young), Jane claimed that Smith visited her at night when he knew William would not be home and propositioned her, suggesting to her that it was God's will that she enter into a polyandrous marriage with Smith.[7] Jane Law described Smith's proposals, saying that Smith had "asked her to give him half her love; she was at liberty to keep the other half for her husband."[8] She refused Smith's request to marry him as a polyandrous plural wife. Law still believed Mormonism to be true, but he viewed Smith as a fallen prophet.

On January 8, 1844, Law was informed that he was no longer a counselor to Smith in the First Presidency. He was shocked and frustrated. He demanded a rehearing of his case, because the procedures for removal from the First Presidency had not been followed. The rehearing was granted and on April 18, 1844, he was tried again.[3] However, this time he was tried as if he were a private member and not a high-ranking church official. Once again he felt this went against church protocol. The following day he was informed of his excommunication on grounds of apostasy. At this point, he felt Smith was beyond saving, and that it was his duty to expose him to the rest of the Mormon community.

Law met privately after his excommunication with other opponents of Smith and formed a group. After they were joined by two boys, Dennison L. Harris and Robert Scott, they were exposed after these boys reported their plans to Smith. Shortly thereafter, Law created the True Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and became its President. On June 7, 1844, Law and his followers published the Nauvoo Expositor, a newspaper that outlined Law's contentions against Smith, including the then-secret practice of plural marriage. The reaction to the newspaper was not what Law expected, and after two days of consultation, the printing press was ordered destroyed by the Nauvoo city council. It was destroyed later that day.

Smith was later arrested and taken to nearby Carthage, Illinois, on charges relating to the destruction of the Expositor.[9] On June 27, 1844, Smith was killed by a mob.[10]

For many years, Law was accused of being a member or a leader of the mob that killed Smith.[11] However, Law's diary shows that he was not in Carthage at the time of the murder, though he had been present there earlier in the day.[12] Although Law expresses outrage and remorse at Smith's death in his private journal,[3] he goes on to say that it was Smith's goal "to demoralize the world, to give it to Satan, his master..... He claimed to be a god, whereas he was only a servant of the Devil, and as such he met his fate."[13]

In 1887, Law agreed to be interviewed reflecting on his experience with Mormonism.[14] This interview, along with three letters by Law, were published in the Salt Lake Tribune.[15]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Law_(Latter_Day_Saints)

Thanks for the instant replay.

Lionize: to give a lot of public attention and approval to (someone); treat as a celebrity.

Sometimes dreams are plays on words, not literal.

This is an interesting post. However I totally disagree with the concept that he was martyred. He was actually killed in a gunfight where he wounded at least three other men two of whom reportedly later died.

That said; I still like your post

Thanks. I ran a check and did not find this topic on another RfM thread.

Interesting bit of biographical history here the church has made a rather big display of.

And thanks for sharing your views of what a martyr means. As a former LDS, I still ascribe his death to that of a martyr even though I no longer see him as a prophet, seer or revelator.

He died for his cause, even as it was based on a false premise.

Charlatan or martyr he still died an ignoble death IMO.

Dictionary definition of martyr is thus,

mar·tyr
ˈmärdər/
noun
1.
a person who is killed because of their religious or other beliefs.
"saints, martyrs, and witnesses to the faith"

In that sense, to say he died for his religious beliefs as errant as they were, is not an understatement IMO.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2016 03:41PM by Amyjo.

Historically, the death of Joseph Smith was a "shoot out" with Joseph firing several shots into the crowd coming up the stairs of the jail. When he ran out of bullets, he attempted to use the masonic symbol of distress to no avail. He then tried to jump out the second story window, but was shot before he could and fell out.

His religion had nothing to do directly with him being held in jail, but rather was the result of having led a mob in destroying a printing press which had printed "The Nauvoo Expositor" a newsletter which contained the truth regarding his numerous and youthful polygamous wives which he had consistently denied having.

In all honesty, Joseph Smith "the Martyr" is one of the biggest misrepresentations ever put forth by the Mormon Church. The mythical Joseph Smith of Mormonism has very little in common with the actual historic person known as Joseph Smith, Jr.

JS didn't die for his "beliefs."
He died for his *actions.* Illegal, disgusting ones.

Exactly, every person I know still in the church equates the death of JS with martyrdom. It couldn't be further from the truth. He wasn't in jail for his beliefs, and he wasn't going to be set free by renouncing them. He wasn't in jail for the BoM. He was in jail for treason, destroying a printing press, and for breaking the law in several different ways.

Interesting to note the veiled anger that Joseph's Myth had against my hero, Wm Law, and apparently his brother, Wilson. Wow, ol' Joe did not someone pointing out his spiritual wifery.

I will say William Law was a moral voice of courage when others fell to the charismatic powers of Smith.

He had his doubts when he saw how Smith was controlling and manipulating his position of power and trust. By not allowing Smith to take his wife in plural marriage, nor her giving her consent to Smith to polyandry might have been the death knell that ended their business relationship. You can't really say they were friends when there was no genuine mutual exchange of trust or respect other than it being one-sided from Law until he learned he and his wife were dupes.

He was taken in by Smith as a 26 year old: young and impressionable, full of ambition and promise. Smith exploited and capitalized on that until he saw he could not control Law and it was then he became ex'd from the First Presidency.

I suspect JS's REAL last dream involved and orgy with teenaged girls.

He awoke with a rather hard landing!

His final moments were a living nightmare. :(

His "due process" was vigilante justice of the old Western frontier.

Sounds pretty accurate to me.

J and H died then shortly after Samuel joined them. They left something behind (the LDS church) which would destroy things such as families, relationships, etc..

Yes, they all made it to 'heaven/after life' just like everyone else will. The after life is described with 'light and music unlike earth' and you will be greeted by friends shortly after you cross over. Notice no mention of Jesus or God coming to welcome the 'profit of god' and there should not have been. All, very common dreams/visions of crossing over.

Of course after that greeting and initial impressions, there is very little information.

There is much more to the after life/between lives than what this 'lovely meeting scene' indicates ----- but that is similar to our reintroduction until our memories kick in.

Then we remember who and what we really are and there are tasks/events to accomplish before we 'reincarnate' again.

I don't know whether this 'dream' is true but it is very 'accurate', based on my experiences, of what we will basically experience upon returning to the 'between-life' at the beginning. Unfortunately, most agree to 'reincarnate', sorry no eternity worshiping God or jesus or anyone else!

Abe Lincoln dreamt of his death shortly before it happened, as erie as it seems.

When my Jewish grandmother died I dreamt sometime afterwards she was on a long boat going down a narrow river, filled with passengers. They were going to their destination but I didn't know where it was. It was a sense she was being reunited with her kinfolk in the dream. Grandma was orphaned at age six, and raised by Protestant aunts. She was raised Jewish until her mother died.

I've wondered if that dream was a vision to where her soul was bound, as she was reunited with her Jewish family who were very close in life? It seemed like she was going on a journey most of the rest of my family wouldn't be making.

When my parents died I had signs from both of them that they'd crossed over, but they were quite different from each other's, and from my grandmother's. They weren't instantaneous with my parents deaths, but occurred some time after, months even.

I believe a lot of people are warned of their death and 'helped' to understand what happens when their body dies ------ like this story.

The 'help' can be dreams, visions or actual spirit communications with 'loved ones' who will meet/assist them.

Heck, if true, this may be the 'most accurate' vision JS ever received and he didn't doctor it up by inputting 'Mormon doctrine'. However, he probably didn't care at that point as he could see this was his end.

So even 'a bad con man' can be comforted before his death by letting him know what was going down.

Notice how people who dream of their deaths, and then *don't* actually die, never make the news?
Hmm? :)

Has a study been done on this, hie?

We all have weird dreams at some time or another.

Some stand out, and some may serve as warnings or premonitions.

How people choose to interpret them is up to the individual.

Dreams are usually a manifestation of our subconscious mind at work during sleep, to make sense of all the things we must deal with in our waking hours.

The dreams where a sign of a future event unfolds, or a warning dream of something yet to happen - that is from a different realm - one that is known as astral physics.

I believe it was very possible that Joseph dreamt of his eventual death with his brother Hyrum, and later brother Samuel joining them - was a form of astral physics. Something from another plane ie, whether it was a form of quantum mechanics via time travel, or intercession relaying information to him through his subconscious mind of his portending death.

Abe Lincoln experienced something very similar to this, only he didn't see his soul going to heaven. He saw himself in a coffin as people were mourning over his body, in a dream, shortly before he was assassinated.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2016 12:37PM by Amyjo.

From THE INTERNET!!!!:

"At this point it is important for me to point-out that matter in the nonphysical universes (the astral plane) is extremely sensitive to thoughts and its(sic) the collective thoughts of millions of people (none(sic) physical people) who create their heaven. So yes, their(sic) is more than one heaven, and yes their(sic) is a hell. But there are also many other existences in the astral plane -- one other being the nonphysical part of our own physical universe. On that note I should point out that our physical universe is just the thin crust of the multitude of nonphysical dimensions."
--http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=245x15582


What gets me is that people who speak of 'astral plane' and 'spiritualism', etc., present these concepts as established fact. They BELIEVE, so their inability to document any proof is seen as something on which only the extremely gauche would focus. They sigh heavily when the gifts of their knowledge do not elicit polite thank you notes.

The "Fact" is made to exist, with the proofs to follow, maybe; simply have faith. Of what does that remind us?

Joseph had quite a few children that had also died before him. Not a mention of any of them.

Him and Emma had the Laws in their sights to do a little wife swapping. The Laws weren't interested. That was the beginning of the end for Joe.

I can visualize William Phelps as a self-styled innovator in the field of dream fantasies a la Howard Lovecraft.

Such maundering fiction may have seemed to him a path to some kind of success in the genre.

"We proceeded (on foot! ep) upon the bosom of the mighty deep and were soon out of sight of land. The ocean was still; the rays of the sun were bright, and we forgot all the troubles of Mother Earth."

Phelps... worthy forerunner of Kilgore Trout, et al.

I was a bit wondrous at Phelps remembering the minute details of Joseph's dream, after his 18 year interval from hearing it to drafting it on paper.

18 years is a long time to go to remember details of personal memories including vivid dreams, let alone the memory of a lucid dream someone else shares with another.

As I posted earlier, this is one of the major problems of Mormon history. Too much of it consists of half-remembered events many, many years after they took place. Most of the so-called Joseph Smith biography has been developed from remarks made by church leaders dozens of years later and have had extensive editing. This is especially true of Nauvoo polygamy and what really occurred. No one has any idea why Joseph Smith had over a dozen married women sealed to him. He certainly was correct when he stated that "no man knows my history".

I feel sorry a bit to have moved you to this sort of vent.

Let us be friends and continue to refine our command of English.

It looks like admins cleaned up the nazi grammar crappola. All is well that ends well.

On that note, I hope you find more worthy things to comment about.

For whoever may have reported it, I thank you most sincerely.

:)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2016 07:33AM by Amyjo.

elderpopejoy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I feel sorry a bit to have moved you to this sort
> of vent.
>

it's a tiny breath moving an angel wing feather...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2016 08:18AM by elderolddog.

Lest the same direct descendants forget Joseph's first (and only legal) wife, Emma has a recording made by their common descendants of HER "Last Dream."

It was recorded some 24 years after her death, by her son Alexander Hale. Similar to how Phelps waited 18 years to record Joseph's dream, Alexander waited 24 to bring up his mother's "last dream" at a meeting where he gave a speech.

In her dream Joseph catches her up to take him with her to a beautiful mansion where one of their children who'd died in infancy, Don Carlos, was waiting for her to pick him up in her arms again like it was yesteryear.

According to Alexander, it was Joseph who Emma asked for on her deathbed, not her husband of many years, Louis Bidamon. Who the heck really knows how much of their stories here were embellished for the sake of their fledgling church/es? Would Emma's son Alexander make that up, or was he, could he have been telling the truth according to his honest recollection? One can only wonder given the totality of what we know about his father thus far. Emma may not have been as complicit as was Joseph in his duplicity and double life. But she was more than certainly an enabler for him.

https://youtu.be/O63zpghH_dg



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2016 04:04PM by Amyjo.

Exactly. Everyone of these "last dreams" recorded many years later are self-serving.

Let's hear one in which the Joseph's last dream is himself before Christ and a host of angels apologizing for the lies he told, the people he had killed, the families he destroyed, the vengeance and hatred in his heart for those who protested his philandering.

He was a blowhard who never apologized, who went down in a shoot-out. Search the list of religious martyrs and see how many others died "for their beliefs" while attempting to murder their persecutors to save their lives.

I do believe the connotation of martyr suggests someone who willingly gave up their life rather than deny their beliefs, right?

Then why was Joseph Smith not wearing garments when he was arrested? Because he didn't want people to be able to tell he was a practioner of plural marriage, in other words, he was quite willing to hide his beliefs while telling others they must wear the garments at all time or face condemnation. Double standards, every time.

Joseph was definitely NOT a martyr.




Kathleen

Alexander did not hear of the dream from Emma. He was with her when she died and said her last words were "Joseph, Joseph!"

Both he and JS, III, who was present, assumed she meant her oldest surviving son, JS, III.

But then a few days later, Emma's nurse told Alexander the story of the dream. The nurse said a few days prior to her death, Emma had the dream and told her, the nurse, about its content.

Why hadn't Emma mentioned it to either son in the days that followed?