I just got done reading Rock Waterman's post where he states that Joseph Smith was *not* a polygamist, and that all polygamy was done without Joseph's consent. WHAT?!

Rock goes on to describe how it was Brigham Young who was one of the main instigators of polygamy after he stayed at a Cochranite polygamist commune while on his mission, bringing home with him another wife.

If that's true, that's the most mind-blowing thing I've heard as an ex-Mormon. That would mean that this con has gone on for nearly two centuries, becoming part of the fabric of Mormonism. But is it true?

It doesn't change my mind about Joseph Smith being a huckster and a fraud, but it is a thought-provoking discussion.

Here's the link to the article. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this!

http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2010/06/why-im-abandoning-polygamy.html

He needs to check his facts.

For too many, beliefs trump (not political!!!) facts.

Yes, he believes that the 39 (or however many)extra wives were attributed to Joseph Smith by later leaders so they could have the "Joseph Smith stamp of approval" on the for-sure polygamy they were doing.

I'm really looking for somebody to read the article and tell me where he's got it wrong.

I'm currently reading his follow-up article, where he is describing why those wives' accounts of being Joseph Smith's plural wives are false. You can find it here:

http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2010/07/why-mormon-history-is-not-what-they-say.html

Plain and simple.

The evidence for JS practicing polygamy is overwhelming.

Two words: Nauvoo Expositor. William Law et al knew the truth while Joseph Smith was still alive.

That is a good point. William Law was certainly no polygamist, and would have no reason to assert that polygamy began with Joseph unless it were true.

"That is a good point. William Law was certainly no polygamist, and would have no reason to assert that polygamy began with Joseph unless it were true."

There are many other contemporary sources which pre-date William Law's and the "Expositor's" accusations, including Martha Brotherton's 1842 affidavit:

http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/MO/miscstl2.htm#071642

Martha's experience was only with Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and did not involve Jacob Cochran, John C. Bennett, or any similar people.

Another source---and an impeccable one at that---is William Clayton, who was Joseph Smith's private secretary. Clayton wrote matter-of-factly in his personal journal That Joseph Smith taught him about plural marriage, and encouraged him to plural marry his wife's sister, Margaret Moon, in 1843. Here are Clayton's journal entries:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1416668,1417123#msg-1417123

Also, historian Michael Quinn delved into the Nauvoo Temple Record Book and found evidence for plural marriage sealings therein. And of course, many faithful Mormon women testified for decades that they had been Smith's plural wives. Those women would not have lied about Joseph Smith's teachings and practices in order to make Brigham Young's polygamy practice seem proper.

Rock Waterman and RLDS apologists who deny that Joseph Smith was a polygamist are just deluded fanatics with an agenda.

"There are two competing story lines. Initially, the neutral observer would suppose that the "Joe was against polygamy" crowd were taken in by Joe's attempt to hide the practice, made most eloquently in his '...how is it that they accuse me of having seven wives when I can only count one.'

"The 'Joe was a polygamous horn dog' crowd says he was just trying to escape public censure."

OF COURSE Smith denied practicing polygamy in order to escape public censure. It was his attempts to deny and/or cover up polygamy that began the chain of events which caused his death.

"On Thursday evening we gave the history of Nauvoo, and the events that led to the death of the Smiths, which, of course, we traced to the introduction of the spiritual wife system; for all that know any thing about it, that it was the introduction of that system which led to the death of the Smiths, and that if that system had not been introduced, they might have been living men to-day."---Sidney Rigdon, March 15, 1845.

"They introduced a base system of polygamy, worse by far than that of the heathen; this system of corruption brought a train of evils with it, which terminated in their entire ruin. After this system was introduced, being in opposition [to] the laws of the land, they, had to put truth at defiance to conceal it, and in order to do it, perjury was often practiced. This system was introduced by the Smiths some time before their death, and was the thing which put them into the power of their enemies, and was the immediate cause of their death."---Sidney Rigdon, June, 1846.

"But then, through the auspices of an RLDS couple, Richard & Pamela Price, and their relentless inquiry into the matter, resulting in their 1983 volume one of "Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy", sufficient ammunition was on hand to take the position mentioned in the title."

The Prices are just RLDS doofuses with an agenda. Legitimate historians of Mormonism don't take them seriously.

"And before you say, "but, but, but... Sec. 132!!", let it be known that Richard & Pamela have a theory that says Sec. 132 did not come from JS."

If the "revelation on celestial marriage" didn't come from Smith, literally dozens of his closest friends/church leaders had to conspire to concoct the assertion that it DID. As mentioned above in this thread, the June 1944 "Nauvoo Expositor" detailed Smith's personal involvement in polygamy:

"We are earnestly seeking to explode the vicious principles of Joseph Smith, and those who practice the same abominations and whoredoms; which we verily know are not accordant and consonant with the principles of Jesus Christ and the Apostles;"

"and what awaits the faithful follower of Joseph, the Apostle and Prophet of God, when in the stead thereof, they are told, after having been sworn in one of the most solemn manners, to never divulge what is revealed to them, with a penalty of death attached, that God Almighty has revealed it to him, that she should be his (Joseph's) Spiritual wife; for it was right anciently, and God will tolerate it again:"

"I hereby certify that Hyrum Smith did, (in his office,) read to me a certain written document, which he said was a revelation from God, he said that he was with Joseph when it was received. He afterwards gave me the document to read, and I took it to my house, and read it, and showed it to my wife, and returned it next day. the revelation (so called) authorized certain men to have more wives than one at a time, in this world and in the world to come. It said this was the law, and commanded Joseph to enter into the law.--And also that he should administer to others. Several other items were in the revelation, supporting the above doctrines. WM. LAW."

"I certify that I read the revelation referred to in the above affidavit of my husband, it sustained in strong terms the doctrine of more wives than one at a time, in this world, and in the next, it authorized some to have to the number of ten, and set forth that those women who would not allow their husbands to have more wives than one who should be under condemnation before God. JANE LAW."

"To all whom it may Concern:
Forasmuch as the public mind hath been much agitated by a course of procedure in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, by a number of persons declaring against certain doctrines and practices therein, (among whom I am one,) it is but meet that I should give my reasons, at least in part, as a cause that hath led me to declare myself. In the latter part of the summer, 1843, the Patriarch, Hyrum Smith, did in the High Council, of which I was a member, introduce what he said was a revelation given through the Prophet; that the said Hyrum Smith did essay to read the said revelation in the said Council, that according to his reading there was contained the following doctrines; 1st, the sealing up of persons to eternal life, against all sins, save that of sheding innocent blood or of consenting thereto; 2nd, the doctrine of a plurality of wives, or marrying virgins; that "David and Solomon had many wives, yet in this they sinned not save in the matter of Uriah. This revelation with other evidence, that the aforesaid heresies were taught and practiced in the Church; determined me to leave the office of first counsellor to the president of the Church at Nauvoo, inasmuch as I dared not to teach or administer such laws. And further deponent saith not. AUSTIN COWLES."

The three documents above were sworn legal affidavits, subject to perjury charges if judged to be false. Those testators would not have invented false charges of polygamy against Smith; they had enough evidence of other crimes to force him to step down as church president or face prosecution.

At some point, the rational human brain has to accept the weight of the evidence of a certain proposition. The brains of Rock Waterman and RLDS apologists like the Prices are not ready to take that step.

Even if you set aside polygamy, it was just a part of Joe's outrageous behavior. What do you do with the rest?

I agree, there are many, many ways to discredit Joseph based on his character and his actions. I was just fascinated by the possibility that he might not have been the polygamist he's made out to be. Definitely enjoying the discussion about this, though.

As a soft-core atheist, whether or not JS *committed* polygamy is of no import. There was no first vision, angel Moroni, gold plates, etc., etc. But I remain convinced that Joe Smith was a horn dog, a successful horn dog, until he reaped the whirlwind.

There are two competing story lines. Initially, the neutral observer would suppose that the "Joe was against polygamy" crowd were taken in by Joe's attempt to hide the practice, made most eloquently in his '...how is it that they accuse me of having seven wives when I can only count one.'

The 'Joe was a polygamous horn dog' crowd says he was just trying to escape public censure.

But then, through the auspices of an RLDS couple, Richard & Pamela Price, and their relentless inquiry into the matter, resulting in their 1983 volume one of "Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy", sufficient ammunition was on hand to take the position mentioned in the title. (I'm led to believe that the RLDS never did take to polygamy, so the research, and more importantly, the interpretations given to what their research uncovered, were (big shock) from the RLDS POV.)

(For those interested, the two volume work, with a third volume titled Vision Articles, can all be read at http://restoration*bookstore.org/jsfp-index.htm I think they'll cure insomnia.)

And it's basically a matter of dueling interpretations, with each side having a vested interest. Remember, there are documents, manuscripts, letters, etc., that purport to indicate JS was a horn dog and used the ancient practice of polygamy as a means for successfully bedding women.

And equally so, there are documents, manuscripts, letters, etc. that purport to indicate JS did NOT practice or support polygamy. And so the 33 wives documented in "In Sacred Loneliness" were frauds! It was all a trick on the part of the SLC branch that followed BY!!! (Damn, I should have posted a spoiler alert.)

And before you say, "but, but, but... Sec. 132!!", let it be known that Richard & Pamela have a theory that says Sec. 132 did not come from JS.

I am too busy working on the "Santa Claus has six fingers!" blockbuster story to invest any more time in this polygamy conundrum. Rock has made up his mind, and I don't give a shit.

EOG wrote:

"There are two competing story lines. Initially, the neutral observer would suppose that the "Joe was against polygamy" crowd were taken in by Joe's attempt to hide the practice, made most eloquently in his '...how is it that they accuse me of having seven wives when I can only count one.'

"The 'Joe was a polygamous horn dog' crowd says he was just trying to escape public censure."

OF COURSE Smith denied practicing polygamy in order to escape public censure. It was his attempts to deny and/or cover up polygamy that began the chain of events which caused his death.

"On Thursday evening we gave the history of Nauvoo, and the events that led to the death of the Smiths, which, of course, we traced to the introduction of the spiritual wife system; for all that know any thing about it, that it was the introduction of that system which led to the death of the Smiths, and that if that system had not been introduced, they might have been living men to-day."---Sidney Rigdon, March 15, 1845.

"They introduced a base system of polygamy, worse by far than that of the heathen; this system of corruption brought a train of evils with it, which terminated in their entire ruin. After this system was introduced, being in opposition [to] the laws of the land, they, had to put truth at defiance to conceal it, and in order to do it, perjury was often practiced. This system was introduced by the Smiths some time before their death, and was the thing which put them into the power of their enemies, and was the immediate cause of their death."---Sidney Rigdon, June, 1846.

EOG wrote:

"But then, through the auspices of an RLDS couple, Richard & Pamela Price, and their relentless inquiry into the matter, resulting in their 1983 volume one of "Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy", sufficient ammunition was on hand to take the position mentioned in the title."

The Prices are just RLDS doofuses with an agenda. Legitimate historians of Mormonism don't take them seriously.

EOG wrote:

"And before you say, "but, but, but... Sec. 132!!", let it be known that Richard & Pamela have a theory that says Sec. 132 did not come from JS."

If the "revelation on celestial marriage" didn't come from Smith, literally dozens of his closest friends/church leaders had to conspire to concoct the assertion that it DID. As mentioned above in this thread, the June 1944 "Nauvoo Expositor" detailed Smith's personal involvement in polygamy:

"We are earnestly seeking to explode the vicious principles of Joseph Smith, and those who practice the same abominations and whoredoms; which we verily know are not accordant and consonant with the principles of Jesus Christ and the Apostles;"

"and what awaits the faithful follower of Joseph, the Apostle and Prophet of God, when in the stead thereof, they are told, after having been sworn in one of the most solemn manners, to never divulge what is revealed to them, with a penalty of death attached, that God Almighty has revealed it to him, that she should be his (Joseph's) Spiritual wife; for it was right anciently, and God will tolerate it again:"

"I hereby certify that Hyrum Smith did, (in his office,) read to me a certain written document, which he said was a revelation from God, he said that he was with Joseph when it was received. He afterwards gave me the document to read, and I took it to my house, and read it, and showed it to my wife, and returned it next day. the revelation (so called) authorized certain men to have more wives than one at a time, in this world and in the world to come. It said this was the law, and commanded Joseph to enter into the law.--And also that he should administer to others. Several other items were in the revelation, supporting the above doctrines. WM. LAW."

"I certify that I read the revelation referred to in the above affidavit of my husband, it sustained in strong terms the doctrine of more wives than one at a time, in this world, and in the next, it authorized some to have to the number of ten, and set forth that those women who would not allow their husbands to have more wives than one who should be under condemnation before God. JANE LAW."

"To all whom it may Concern:
Forasmuch as the public mind hath been much agitated by a course of procedure in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, by a number of persons declaring against certain doctrines and practices therein, (among whom I am one,) it is but meet that I should give my reasons, at least in part, as a cause that hath led me to declare myself. In the latter part of the summer, 1843, the Patriarch, Hyrum Smith, did in the High Council, of which I was a member, introduce what he said was a revelation given through the Prophet; that the said Hyrum Smith did essay to read the said revelation in the said Council, that according to his reading there was contained the following doctrines; 1st, the sealing up of persons to eternal life, against all sins, save that of sheding innocent blood or of consenting thereto; 2nd, the doctrine of a plurality of wives, or marrying virgins; that "David and Solomon had many wives, yet in this they sinned not save in the matter of Uriah. This revelation with other evidence, that the aforesaid heresies were taught and practiced in the Church; determined me to leave the office of first counsellor to the president of the Church at Nauvoo, inasmuch as I dared not to teach or administer such laws. And further deponent saith not. AUSTIN COWLES."

The three documents above were sworn legal affidavits, subject to perjury charges if judged to be false. Those testators would not have invented false charges of polygamy against Smith; they had enough evidence of other crimes to force him to step down as church president or face prosecution.

At some point, the rational human brain has to accept the weight of the evidence of a certain proposition. The brains of Rock Waterman and RLDS apologists like the Prices are not ready to take that step.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2016 05:04PM by randyj.