just like they do every night on this planet. I find it a stange religion, morg, to believe their God, Jesus, was just testing those little ones and parents to see if they had enough faith to live without foodl and water. They didn't and failed the test......I wonder how much mall money would save those children every night. How do cult leaders sleep with billions at their disposal, furnishing their own homes with millions, and watching the children of the world die each night??? I guess I am just different, I would not be able to sleep I would be so ashamed.

Poignant and concise. It is inexplicable.

Glad2B Out

One of them said, "Well, the church may not be true but I still believe in god."

We asked him why and he said it's because he doesn't believe it's always a coincidence when he prays to god and gets what he wants. For example, he related a story about wanting to skateboard at a local skate-park that was covered in fog. He asked god to remove it and within a few minutes the fog was gone.

Swedeboy asked him, "What about the daily prayers to god by parents begging for the lives of their dying children? God didn't have time to save their kids but he took time to clear a skate park of fog?"

The room went silent.

professing atheism is not ...."still being suckered by the morg".... MOST atheists have no connections at all with the morg....silly rabbit!! :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2011 09:49AM by bignevermo.

Why would a loving God cause babies that are too young to have the cognitive skills needed for testing such suffering in order to test the child's parents? Sounds sadistic to me.

Never mind that an omnipotent God that has the power to create life, the Universe and everything should know what the results will be even before testing, or at the very least be able to figure out how to get the answers without torturing innocent babies that are not even able to comprehend what is going on.

But hey, as long as God is helping people find their car keys, everything is OK, eh? Phhht.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2011 11:09AM by MJ.

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why would a loving God cause babies that are too
> young to have the cognitive skills needed for
> testing such suffering in order to test the
> child's parents? Sounds sadistic to me.
>
> Never mind that an omnipotent God that has the
> power to create life, the Universe and everything
> should know what the results will be even before
> testing, or at the very least be able to figure
> out how to get the answers without torturing
> innocent babies that are not even able to
> comprehend what is going on.

God has His reasons for everything that happens. Those children will be in Heaven as soon as they die (if they die before the age of responsibility). When you don't know the whole story and reasons why this world is so messed up, it's easy to blame God, even tho' we all [every one of us] could do more than we do to save the lives of those innocent suffering children.

WM Wrote:

> God has His reasons for everything that happens.

Where do you get this amazing insight into a superior mind, WM? From the Bible? That same Bible that says it's ok to sell your daughter into slavery? (Exodus 21:7)

> Those children will be in Heaven as soon as they die (if they die before the age of responsibility).

And you learned that from the Book of Mormon? That same book that made it ok for Nephi to ignore the 10 Commandments and murder a drunken Laban? I mean, you *KNOW* there was no way to get past that one without a cold-blooded murder, so it *MUST BE* according to god's plan, right?

> When you don't know the whole story and reasons why this world is so messed up, it's easy to blame God...

It's almost like god isn't there. It's almost like s/he (or "it) doesn't exist. It's almost like a bunch of men made up this idiot god in their own images.

>...even tho' we all could do more than we do to save the lives of those innocent suffering children.

How heartless of god. But at least he's A#1 at finding those pesky car keys!

Then when you look at stuff like this:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece

"Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'"

It seems that if there is a God, it isn't a very good or helpful God when it comes to making the world here a better place!

Why would God let so many innocent babies suffer from starvation and disease if God really loved them? To test the parents? I would hope not, torturing the innocent in an attempt to "test" a parent? That would be morally repugnant to this Atheist and if there was a God, I would rebel against such an immoral God.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2011 02:14AM by MJ.

An institute instructor 15 years ago explained to me that it couldn't be true that blacks were less valiant in the preexistence because...black children in Africa die at a very high rate, and children who die automatically inherit the Celestial Kingdom.

Sometimes you'll hear reasoning that some souls just didn't need a life, they were good enough already, already proved their worthiness.

Whew, that's a relief that SO MANY souls are already saved that God has a surplus problem to deal with, and has to resort to famines, wars, and assorted disasters to get the line moving.

So don't feel bad. Those lucky kids have it made.

"Sometimes you'll hear reasoning that some souls just didn't need a life, they were good enough already, already proved their worthiness."

Wow, that makes no senses. If they didn't need a life, why give them one in the first place? That institute instructor was crazy.

as pre-determined in the pre-existence. So... the Lord's true church really doesn't need to intervene.

Yes... pointed and seething sarcasm.

Most have never seen the suffering of a child who is starving..I had to turn away....I gave even the clothes I had to them to ease a day of their suffering....When I walked out of the Philippine orphanage, I knew that I would remember those faces and eyes for the rest of my life. I cry now writing this.I am so haunted that I could not do more. I adopted two of those precious children who now live with me. I could not feed and adopt the other millions....the morg could, but I couldn't.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2011 11:22AM by get her done.

For this Loving God, obviously death does not exist: it is something apparently real only from the body-based perspective. People who have developed continuity of consciousness (full awareness even while the body goes to sleep and all through the dreaming and dreamless processes) also say that death and sleep are the same and lose the fear of dying. It is obvious that all the poignancy and charges of divine sadism are made only from the view of body identification, which is natural but...is that really the only form of awareness?

Either that body-view is mistaken, or everyone will be annihilated sooner or (relatively speaking, only seconds) later. Tell me, what is precious about life if everyone loses it and everything experienced in it, and the person no longer exists in any form to be aware of it? (Such considerations led Siddhartha to abandon his own precious life of luxury and investigate the nature of existence itself.)

Good points, now tell me how horrific suffering and pain fits into you Paradyne??????????????? Also I did not indicate any Gods, only selfish men.. and the morg religion......does death excuse them from not sharing??



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2011 12:02PM by get her done.

It truly breaks the heart.

Reminds me of a bumper sticker my daughter was telling me about.

"30,000 children die of starvation each day, why should God answer your prayers?"



Yep, Atheism for me all the way!

Again off my point.....don't human beings have any obligation to share or help those in need...........what about just being kind...........nothing to do with religion...just modern human values...

...God, religion and churches. Thank heavens it's not the fault of ordinary man.

Mormons love having reasons for everything in their theology.

You took the words right out of my keyboard; just to keep it on RfM topic, how does the LDS church view these 6,000, who are mostly third World non-white and delightsome? Do they go to heaven exalted, or servant children?

Life sucks for lots of reasons, but these kids are victims of ignorance, war, famine, politics, sanitation, and natural resources. God does intervene. Sorry.

Mormon Church does donate to charitable orgs. So what if it's less than 1% of their income. (What % of that makes it to help a child in need?) The RCC does a pretty good job at charity work. (Again, what % of RCC funds go to help a child.) God doesn't seem to be doing much, but then, he may be doing quite a bit but we don't notice. Historically, if/when God has done anything it seems to have been through human beings.

So, wouldn't the correct question be "Yeah. All those other organizations listed as well as people, don't seem to be doing enough, so to hell with all those others. What AM I DOING to help ease the problem?

I've always been taught and believed that if you want a job done well, do it yourself. If there were enough "yourselves" out there we could easily solve the problem.

People like WM say that God "has His reasons" for letting children die of starvation.

Then, when I announce my atheism, I am told by WM that I approve of students being murdered in schools.(This happened on another thread).

I used to believe that religion was basically a symptom of a lack of education. But I have found that it really can be a form of twisted evil.

To justify the death of children is evil. To accuse a stranger of approving the death of children is evil.

WM, you must really be a sick person.

God doesn't "punish" or "test".
Those are morg concepts, and not biblical.
As far as why God allows anyone to suffer, hate to go there, but you'd have to ask him.
If you're professing atheism, you're still being suckered by the morgs in my opinion.
If you choose atheism, you're entitled to that choice.
Just give the other alternative a fair shake w/out morg influence if you really are craving some kind of answer.

Devorah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> God doesn't "punish" or "test".

Truth be told, it doesn't do much of anything, does it?!

> Just give the other alternative a fair shake w/out
> morg influence if you really are craving some kind
> of answer.

The 'other alternative' has been around for quite a very long time with the results severely lacking. Sure, the god of the day can be asked why it is such a derelict, but time is precious and wasting it by attempting to communicate to a fantasy being is nonsensical.

Glad2B Out

>God doesn't "punish" or "test".

Surely you've heard the story of Job who was tested to the extreme mostly just for God to win a bet.

The whole faith in Jesus thing is a test as well. A test of faith is the TEST which lands you eternal death (PUNISHMENT) if you don't pass the TEST.

Who cares what God's reasons are. Even a lowly human knows cruelty when he sees it. No excuses for God from me.

Devorah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> God doesn't "punish" or "test". Those are morg concepts, and not biblical.

They are too biblical. What bible have you been reading? There's nothing but punishments and tests in the bible.

Adam and Eve are "tested" by being given the choice of partaking from the Tree of Life and disobeying god...which they do.
Abram is "tested" by being asked to murder his son to this "god of the bible."

And there are hundreds of other examples of tests...which is a very biblical concept.

Punishment is 100% biblical! Jesus! Have you NEVER READ THE BIBLE?

I can't believe someone can trash Mormondumb and in the same breath completely misrepresent the bible!

It's clear that most religious people lack even the most rudimentary critical thinking skills.

Devorah, I worry for you. You really need to think this crap through.

Imagine if you had the power to save a child from certain death at no risk of personal injury and didn't. Not only would you be condemed as morally bankrupt by your community you may also be punished (depending on the country in which you live) according to the law. Why is it that humans are far more moral than the god that is supposed to be the source of our morality? The fact (at least according to the faithful) that god can save and chooses not to is morally repungnant.

that there is NO god. So we can't blame anything on the non-existent god.

On the topic of children dying of starvation, the Rev. Thomas Malthus stated the reason that this happens. The six editions of his "An Essay on the Principle of Population", published from 1798 to 1826, observed that sooner or later population gets checked by famine and disease. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_malthus )

This means that in the absence of easy and effective birth control methods, human population will continue to increase to the point that any further increase is held in check by starvation. That is most definitely very cruel but it is a fact of life on earth.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2011 05:58PM by saviorself.

That was long before both modern medicine and improved agricultural methods resulting in the ability to produce more food. It's outdated and really doesn't apply to modern times.

There's the potential for plenty of medicine and food to go around. Instead, those with the resources to help out (i.e. the mormon church and other such organizations) selfishly keep their resources to themselves.

Building their 3+ billion dollar mall is more important to them. And all that year's supply of food that mormons have (and never use) could be used to feed a few people. The morg also has farms and ranches with plenty of potential to feed a lot of people. But no, gotta keep the coffers of the church overflowing. That's really what keeps people in poverty these days. The selfishness of those able but unwilling to help.

TG

I watch the parking lot fill up and think of all the wasted time spent acting out a silly, useless ritual.

The biggest complaint I have about Mormon, Inc.'s bullshit in the valley is that the members can't see how many *REAL* people could be helped if the cult stopped this wasteful spending on temples and built job training centers that included welfare assistance for everyone and anyone who would take the training and work.

They are the epitome of dishonest cult leaders.

Not questioning the number, but an estimated 160,000 people die everyday, and I suppose not so many of them welcome it. In the way the issue is framed here, are the other 151,000 more deserving of death--because they had more living, or committed more mistakes? The fixation on children is, of course, an emotion card, but why is it played?

The curious thing I notice is not that compassion for these children is used to motivate greater charity among ourselves, but it is used to rail against others (who were once children). In other words, there is a mixture of love AND hate. (Incidentally, quite noticeable among pro-lifers as well--"love" for the unborn and virulent anger toward some of the previously born.) I am learning by observing myself and friends that these opposites canNOT be compartmentalized: entertaining contradictory feelings, regardless of the objects of those feelings, creates a dissonance in ourselves where the feelings serve to sabotage each other. We wonder why our love doesn't "conquer all"--and it's because it is vitiated by hate.

Looking only at the inner state this creates, I often consider what if the two feelings were interchanged: would I imagine the negative outcomes for those I love? would I imagine the loving thoughts for those who anger me? In the long run, I think that is the point of the great spiritual traditions--see others as yourself, and what you wish for one, you actually send to all. And that ending of the inner dissonance empowers the feelings that you do have.