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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: December 16, 2016 01:45PM

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/half-of-people-remember-events-that-never-happened/

Researchers were able to implant false memories into people.
Half the subjects remembered things that never actually
happened, but were only implanted by the researchers.

Does this shed light on "The Three Witnesses"?

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Posted by: Justin ( )
Date: December 16, 2016 01:51PM

Martin Harris was just an idiot. I believe Whitmer and Cowdrey were in on the scam.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: December 17, 2016 01:16AM

ditto

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Posted by: lurking in ( )
Date: December 16, 2016 01:59PM

But so are group hallucination, aliens ... and fibbing.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2016 02:05PM by lurking in.

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Posted by: Pichler ( )
Date: December 16, 2016 02:00PM

Authority do everything to make people doubt their own perception.

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Posted by: RPackham ( )
Date: December 16, 2016 02:02PM

I know a little bit about hypnotism, self-hypnotism and "altered states of consciousness." The techniques of inducing a hypnotic or semi-hypnotic state in a suitable subject are easy to learn, and quite simple. The hypnotist suggests the proper physical state (usually relaxed), and then gives hypnotic suggestions. It has also been found that turning the eyeballs slightly upward (as in an attitude of prayer, or looking for a descending angel) enhances the suggestibility of the subject. The subject can retain full consciousness, even though hallucinating at the suggestion of the hypnotist.

I have done this. I have seen it done. For instance, I once watched an amateur hypnotist at a party gather a group of about twenty people in a room to "talk about hypnotism." Within a very few minutes, without any warning from him (he didn't say, "now I'm going to hypnotize you!"), just by talking "about" hypnotism, he had about 80% of the people hypnotized. He suggested that a flock of birds were flying overhead (this happened indoors, remember) dropping bird poop on them. Immediately everyone was frantically covering their heads, wiping themselves off, making sounds of disgust. The next moment he suggested they were watching the saddest movie they had ever seen. People immediately began to sob, to cry real tears, to shake with emotion. He then suggested that they were watching the funniest movie they had ever seen, and immediately they were holding their sides with laughter, falling off their chairs, etc.

Of course Joseph Smith was not a trained hypnotist. The phenomenon had only begun to receive attention a few decades earlier, when Mesmer began to study it, calling it "animal magnetism." But there is no doubt, I would think, that priests, magicians, sorcerers and other charismatic types had discovered by accident, or by trial and error, many of the techniques to induce a hypnotic state. "Spell-binding" is a very old word, and a very old notion. Joseph Smith was charismatic, spell-binding, according to all who met him.

The situation of the Three Witnesses was ideal for a hypnotically-induced illusion or "vision." Cowdery may have even been an accomplice, a shill, since he had been involved with Smith almost from the beginning.

I see no problem with the fact that none of them denied their testimony, even though they all left the church. There are two very plausible explanations (take your pick), neither of which require us to conclude that they must have seen an angel. Remember, too, that the most that their signed testimony can prove is that they believed they had seen an angel. No one is required to believe such testimony, that is, to accept as conclusive proof that, in fact, they had seen an angel, either in court or in real life. Whether they actually did see an angel is a different issue.

Explanation 1: As many critics have suggested, any man (even an honest man) hates to admit that he was flummoxed, or that he lied under oath, or that he has contributed to the deception of thousands of trusting people. It is easier, it causes less trouble, just to stick by the original story. (There are probably General Authorities and members of the BYU faculty who are further examples of this attitude.)

Explanation 2: A hypnotically-induced hallucination is very real. Like any hallucination, it is identifiable as a hallucination only by someone other than the person hallucinating. If the person having the hallucination recognized that it was a hallucination, either at the time or later, it would not be a hallucination. It is very difficult to convince a hallucinator that his experience was not real. I think that the Witnesses had a joint hallucination that was so real that they believed it for as long as they lived (this conclusion may not apply to Cowdery).

Mormon apologists counter the hallucination hypothesis by saying that joint hallucinations are impossible, i.e. two or more people having the same hallucination at the same time. Strictly speaking, that is probably true. But it is no valid objection here, because we are not suggesting that the Witnesses saw exactly the same thing. Each of them had an individual hallucination that shared only broad similarities. We have no details about what the angel looked like (long brown hair, medium black hair, short sleeves, long sleeves, barefoot, sandals, etc.). They saw and heard what it was suggested to them that they see and hear: angel holding gold plates, voice saying the record is true and commanding them to bear witness. One witness could have heard "Go thou forth and bear witness that this record is true!" but another could have heard: "I testify to you that this is the work of God, and is a true record; you are chosen and elected of God to bear witness to it!" What a shame, that we could not examine these witnesses to see if the details of their vision were identical! I have no doubt that some of the people I saw hallucinating at that party were picturing pigeons flying overhead, but others were seeing seagulls or crows, that some saw them flying east to west, and others north to south, or willy-nilly; I am quite certain that their movies were different. And yet they were all seeing something that in general terms could be described the same: "birds flying overhead, defecating; sad movie."

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: December 16, 2016 04:08PM

I would like to comment on two points:

"Of course, Joseph Smith was not a trained hypnotist. The phenomenon had only begun to receive attention a few decades earlier, when Mesmer began to study it, calling it 'animal magnetism.'"

1) Coming out of Christian Science, this is something I have read a great deal on. In the early 1800s, a student of Mesmer was traveling New England, and a man named Phineas Quimby studied under him--or at least learned his technique. Quimby developed a "mind healing" practice, which he called the "Science of Mind," or "Mind Science," which he later applied to a chronic invalid, Mary Baker Eddy, who later "discovered" Christian Science. Quimby is the true source of Christian Science and kindred beliefs, such as Unity and Religious Science. Eddy plagiarized his writings substantially. There's a lot out there, and I have follow-up recommendations if you are interested.

Some people are incredibly charismatic, and many for ill purpose, be they Eddy, Smith, Hitler. Others not so, such as motivation speakers, former GE CEO Jack Welch, Bill Clinton. There's an anecdote that Mary Baker Eddy was speaking to the press. Afterwards, they all found that none of them had bothered taking notes!

2) "(A)ny man (even an honest man) hates to admit that he was flummoxed,.." To expand upon this, there is a cumulative dimension to this: a person so duped increases his investment in the self-deception. Thus, having bought into the "burning in the bosom," the TBM typically has to reinforce that. And the Christian Scientist, having believed herself "healed" of some ailment, will embellish the experience in her memory and, subsequently, in her pubic testimony of it.

Lastly, such experiences are powerfully reinforced by ensuing confirmation bias.

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: December 16, 2016 05:27PM

Since most of the original 50 members of Joseph's church founded in 1830 were into money digging, they were predisposed to believe the golden plates story. It would have been fantastic to them if true, so they wouldn't have needed much convincing. Also, we don't know how many non-witnesses there were: those for whom Joseph's charms didn't work.

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: December 16, 2016 05:46PM

Babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> those for whom Joseph's
> charms didn't work.

It is important to remember that the "three witnesses" were
chosen from among Joseph's followers. He knew them well. It
is also worth noting that each of them had claimed to have had
visionary experiences BEFORE their "witness" vision. Just like
a stage hypnotist "tests" audience members before using them as
volunteers, Joseph was able to "test" his followers before
choosing the ones who would be the witnesses.

Add to that the statement (made more than once) by Martin
Harris that he didn't see the plates with his physical eyes but
with his SPIRITUAL eyes and the witnesses are not so convincing.

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Posted by: Happy2BeMe ( )
Date: December 16, 2016 07:55PM

Con Artists have been around for ages. I've read research that says approx. 1 out of every 100 people has the personality disorder that causes them to crave deceiving other people.

In addition to the link posted above there's the National Geographic Series "Brain Games." In one episode people are actually convinced on camera that something happened that did not. It just takes 1 or 2 persuasive people "planted" among them.

(I think the episode was in Season One)

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Posted by: azsteve ( )
Date: December 16, 2016 08:10PM

Every mormon testimony about the church, is a false witness. The religion is literally founded and built on false witnesses. Guillable people can be convinced that something is true if the lie about the truthfulness of it often enough and long enough. Long before social media appeared, it was the original fake news.

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: December 16, 2016 08:20PM

Here is a comparison

Joseph Smith History 1:69

Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer the priesthood of Aaron, which hold the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.

Now in the end of the chapter is Oliver Cowdrey's account.

Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer this priesthood and this authority, which shall remain upon the earth, that the sons of Levi may yet offer an offering unto the Lord in righteousness!

He also identifies the "angel of the Lord " as conferring the priesthood and makes no mention of John the Baptist.

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