There was a question on this board I saw a while back (and I've seen it elsewhere) that basically asked if a person should be offended or at all different towards the idea that their lover was actually a transsexual person.

I'll admit I know just about nothing and no one this applies to, so I won't pretend to know what a civilized person should do or think. That said, it seems obvious that most (perhaps uncivilized) people would not be indifferent.

Assuming there were a world populated by androids/robots/AI such as in the show Westworld, should a person be indifferent if they discovered their lover were not actually human, having previously believed they were? Is it okay to believe that such a person/robot is not a "real man" or a "real woman"?

I know this is a stretch because transsexual people are in fact real people, flesh and blood, human DNA and all. I'm mostly wondering what perspective of what a real male or female "is" should be allowed to influence human bias in a civilized mind.

Clearly in the Mormon world, males and females are told what to be all the time, and in no way are those dictates civilized or even intelligent, so I know there is room for thought on the issue.

It's part of the human condition to consider people with whom you don't share your own experience and your own (sub)culture, as other, especially if your culture is insulated.

Without considering biology, what do YOU thing is feminine and/re masculine? And why?

I don't think I'm asking about what is feminine or masculine... I think I'm asking if a person has a civilized right to feel betrayed if what they consider to be a "real" man or woman is somehow hidden from them when they enter a relationship, even if it is without intent because the other person doesn't think it should be relevant.

I'm not at all sure that not considering biology (and everything a person does or could know about it) is even possible for most sexual relationships.

I'm not sure what you mean by being "betrayed"...

Wouldn't you learn this fact about the other person fairly soon after you started getting to know them?

That's why I ask. I assume (perhaps ignorantly) that this would be obvious considering biology and medical technology.

However, if I am wrong, or in a science fiction world where it isn't obvious, is there a moral, ethical, or just friendly obligation to bring it up? Or, should it be such a normalization that it shouldn't need to be?

What do you mean by a civilized right?

That if you enter into a relationship with someone, anyone, that honesty is of the utmost importance?

Yes, sort of that. Can one person believe that they have fully transformed into male or female such that they don't feel they are being dishonest, and have no need to disclose the change to their partner? Not that they lied and claimed nothing changed, but that they changed and now it doesn't matter what was before.

Maybe they would discuss it if it came up, but why would it. It wouldn't for most people. That sort of honesty. I stole candy as a kid, but I don't now, so why would I bring it up?

That trans women are desperate to trick cis men into sex or a relationship. I can only think on one case where this happened, it was a pair of high schoolers, and a girl fooled another girl into thinking the other was a boy, engaged in penetrative sex with a dildo, the other girl even thought she was pregnant for a minute. (This was at a HS in the 90s right next to my hometown and it was big news for a bit).

Do I think a trans person should be open and honest with a potential partner about their sex assigned at birth? Sure. I think people should be able to be honest about everything with a potential partner, but it's not like cis people are the paramount of honesty when it comes to relationships and sex, either. There're whole sites dedicated to cis men lying to cis women to get them into bed and coercive sexual acts. Other sites that are justify not telling their partners about their STIs, even calling people "serophobic" for wanting to practice safer sex. I thinks transpanic should be waaaaaaaay down on the list when it comes to fear of being tricked into sex a person didn't consent to, but anybody explained down below a lot of the social and psychological stigmas about trans people and it's not like the media helps much, either, portraying trans people as either victims or villains a good part of the time.

The problem with transphobia is it reduces people to only their genitals and not as people and people end up placing an "otherness" on trans people that diminished them as human beings. I hope nightwolf comes on to explain his position in these issues.

That trans people often face assault, rape, even murder, when a person learns of their assigned sex at birth, so can you see why many are very careful to whom they relay their own history?

The most fascinating thing about this issue is that many heterosexual cisgendered men are attracted to trans women even if they find out or know to begin with. Gay men are not. There was a very good article from a online news source (think ____ squad) that I can't link here that interviewed some men who dated transwomen. They saw them as women -- and not men.

While it is expensive, somebody who is transgendered can have full reconstructive surgery to be their identified sex in almost every way. Other than different internal reproductive organs/hormones, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference, especially not from the outside.

But in a healthy and fulfilling relationship, I would imagine this is something they would share with their partner when the timing is right.

I think you have already made up your mind about this, just by the way you have phrased your questions, but you are looking for somebody to tell you how you should 'think' about this. But there is no good answer, it dépends entirely on the two people involved. There is no 'civilized' answer to this question. But how a person behaves outwardly towards transgendered individuals, regardless of how they feel about them, is within your control, and they have as much right to be treated with respect as anybody else, regardless of the situation.

In terms of whether a person should feel betrayed, if the relationship has made it that far without any discussion concerning this subject, and the person feels betrayed by not knowing, then they probably should find a new relationship.

I have been acquainted with a number of transgendered people.

Some identify as TG only before they have reconstructive surgery. Many I have known both before and after refer to themselves only as their post-operative gender, once it is all done.

Just as with cis-people, some TGs are straight, and some are gay. All of them that I have known let potential partners know about their "transition" if it appears that the relationship is going somewhere. In many cases, the potential partner has already fallen in love with the person, and does not care about earlier history. Others, well, can't deal with it.

Several points you bring up, which I'd like to ask about.

First, I don't think medical technology can do what you describe, but I am no surgeon so I could be wrong. Assuming you could be correct is the premise of my question.

As for the correct timing of discussion with a lover, that is my question. I think most people (and I could be wrong) would assume the timing is minute one. How would people who disagree think? You are right that I have my mind set this far, but not further. My mind isn't made up, since I think I think I could be wrong. Mormonism taught me that, and I don't care for it.

I am not asking how to treat transgendered people, since I don't interact with any as far as I know.

I think your last statement is the most pertinent to my question. If you discover Mormonism is a fraud, you leave. If you discover Mormonism is a fraud, things you thought were wrong but actually aren't, you adapt and might grow closer to. This is the root of what I am asking about.

Named Trinidad where they do these surgeries. We joked about it a lot in HS when we were asshole, ignorant kids in my CO mountain town. It's actually very well known and places in Thailand that will do a full bottom surgery as well.

Medical technology has made bottom surgery for trans women much easier, you can do the research on how the procedure is done yourself. Trans men sometimes have a more difficult time with their bottom surgeries for again, reasons you can look up in your own.

What you should know and the ignoramus down below is there are a multitude of excellent reasons trans people don't opt for bottom surgeries. Basing someone's identifying gender based on their genitals reducing them to nothing but that and again, is rooted in making trans people appear as less human.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marci_Bowers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinidad_(film)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2016 11:28AM by anybody.

Thanks, I was unaware of that. Her site does say she operates out of CA, but she still has an office in Trinidad. SHe has one in Seattle, too, so hopefully more trans people have access to the care they need now. :)

Here' some excellent information for the OP on the site:

http://marcibowers.com/ftm/answering-myths-about-transgender-mens-genital-reconstruction/

http://marcibowers.com/ftm/queer-bodies-surgical-possibilities-and-limits/

You could apply that reasoning to anything in life, should you choose to. You just found out something isn't true, so now you're getting mad and leaving.

So you find out that your girlfriend has actually kissed five guys in her life, but only told you four, so now she is committing fraud, and when you find out you leave her?

The boss promised you that you would get to handle a new client, but changed his mind and had somebody else handle the new client, so he committed fraud and you're getting upset and leaving?

I agree, the Mormon church is a fraud... but you need to get over it and move on. Whether you would like to admit it or not, you already have deep seeded ideas about what is right and wrong in life, and you seem to be looking for somebody to tell you whether you are right or wrong and whether you are being civilized or uncivilized.

The world doesn't work like that, it's not black or white, in fact there is almost no actual black or white, it's all gray. You just need to decide what shade of gray you are and deal with it. And hopefully you aren't the type of person who will do physical or emotional harm to people who aren't the same shade of gray. People are just people, so treat others the way in which you would prefer to be treated in life.

Maybe that's why the church is against TG. Members could be dating one and the exact gender could go undetected because of the law of chastity. Not that a TG would keep such a secret, but the very possibility would give the 15 the heebyjeebies.

I don't see any reason to be "offended." Being transgender is, unfortunately, often met with disgust or confusion from others. One of my closest friends and several of my acquaintances are transgender, and each of them have more than their share of horror stories about coming out and receiving backlash. If I were transgender I doubt I'd be confident enough to immediately inform any potential partners of my gender identity. And "betrayal" is certainly too harsh a term, since gender identity is a sensitive topic and any unintentional deception is likely more motivated by fear than anything else. In my opinion it doesn't matter whether someone is transgender or cisgender anyway.

And yes, it is medically possible for complete sex reassignment surgery (SRS). If you want an example, Laverne Cox is a fairly established transgender actress.

The question you are really asking is about being with a woman who cannot reproduce. Homosexuality and transsexuality have nothing to do with each other and are totally separate issues.


Human sexuality is complex and sexual identity is actually based in the brain and develops independently of biological sex.

Many seemingly normal females are in fact genetically male with normal external female organs and they were born that way.

All embryos are female at conception. Some of them undergo further transformation and become male. It's not always a perfect, complete process. Some infants are born with sex organs that appear to be female externally when they are genetically male and are assigned female sex at birth. This is a well known condition called androgen insensitivity syndrome or AIS. Most girls don't know they even have it until their late teens or until their first attempts at pregnancy and it's not that uncommon. These girls tend to be taller than average with a slim athletic figure and consequently many female athletes and models are known to have this condition. These individuals are totally feminine with a female brain structure and female sexual identity -- but they are genetically male and lack female reproductive organs. They have a vagina but do not have a cervix, uterus or ovaries, do not have a menstrual cycle and cannot reproduce.


Scientifically there's no difference between a XY transsexual female and an AIS XY female in terms of brain structure. Both have a female sexual identity. The only difference is really in the eye of the beholder. Medical science can prevent the body changes and organ development caused by puberty and surgically construct a vagina for XY females who were assigned male sex at birth. What is the difference?


An XY female is not a homosexual male. The fear you are describing is based on castration fear and fear of being transformed into a female that would or could be dominated by males.


A person with a female brain structure and female sexual identity is not a man and will never desire to behave as such. The difference only is in your mind.


Should a sentient, totally human appearing robot tell you they are not human and cannot reproduce? Here's an old classic SF B-movie that explores the issues of humanity, racism, sentience, consciousness, and reproduction:


"Creation Of The Humanoids" (1962)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBTapiVt0aA



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2016 09:49AM by anybody.

I am a woman who has stated several trans men. I knew right away with three of them and one I didn't until we decided we were going to have sex. Didn't bother me.

When a belief does not conform objective reality it is, by definition, a delusion. While we have to be careful to protect everyone's rights, transgenderism is still such a delusion. Gender is set by biology and, to some extent, shaped by society. But one cannot divorce him or herself from verifiable, genetic fact.

I realize this topic is loaded with emotions and that many support the current, trendy, views of gender. And I also get the sincere, and praiseworthy, desire to defend minorities of all kinds. At the same time, buying into what is simply not real is just as misguided as, say, propagating BS religious claims. All I'd ask the reader to do is take a step back and analyze their thoughts on the topic; are you giving into confirmation bias? I'd wager some are.

behind the concept of brain-based sexual identity?


Your "objective reality" is based on the now obsolete theory that sexual identity is formed in individuals after birth by infants looking at their genitalia. We now know it doesn't happen that way. Parts don't determine how you see yourself or how you act or behave. Your brain does.


Sexual identity is based in the form and structure of the human brain and develops independently of genitalia, anatomy or biological sex of the foetus in utero. I've mentioned how this can occur in XY females with AIS. Just because someone is genetically male doesn't mean they will behave that way if they don't have a cisgendered male brain structure.


The subject is a prime example of how science and reason can explain a hidden and almost intangible subject that religion rejects and some cultures do not accept.


The condition has been induced in laboratory animals. Pregnant rats were given hormones to create a hormonal imbalance in the womb. These rats had offspring that exhibited similar conduct and behaviours of the opposite biological sex.


Brain sections of deceased trans women have confirmed that they have regions of the brain that were identical or very similar to cisgendered heterosexual female brains.


There is considerable research that shows children are well aware of their sexual identity at very young ages -- around two to four years old.


It is my conclusion that people who do not accept the existence of transsexuals and reject the brain-based sexual idenity mis-match do so out of fear and ignorance or the need for sexual dominance and control. The issue is further compounded by a gender variance spectrum in the sexual behaviours of both homosexuals and heterosexuals.


Use your common sense. As I previously stated, imagine if you are left handed and your parents forced you to use your right hand. You will never be "converted" to being right handed. You'll always be left handed. If you have a female brain but a male body or vice-versa you will never think or act sexually like a cisgendered person does. You will not see your body as normal -- just as you would not if you were disfigured in a horrible accident. You can be forced to do so, but it will never be natural and can create significant emotional and psychological stress which quite often results in depression, self-harm, substance abuse, and suicide.


It is also cruel and inhumane to force someone to deny their true selves and be something they were not meant to be just for your benefit and internal prejudices.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2016 06:20AM by anybody.

Do you have scientific proof of your claims, specifically about the fender binary?

You can do the research just as I did.


Start with these references:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

http://transascity.org/the-transgender-brain/


https://www.sciencenewsforstudents.org/article/gender-when-body-and-brain-disagree


Infants don't look at their parts to develop a sexual identity. Here is a very famous case from Canada in the 1960s. An XY assigned male at birth infant's sex organs were converted after a botched circumcision. The child was raised as a female but never expressed a female sexual identity. Back then it was thought sexual identity could be imposed externally. We now know that it can't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2016 03:06PM by anybody.

Not one of the cited references are reputable scientific sources. You'll have to dig much deeper than that to make your case.

As for the previous assertion that embryos are all female at conception-- that is simply not true and a misunderstanding of the conception process. The egg before conception consists of X chromosomes. The other half that must be present to determine sex there is no sex definition. Without the definition of the additional chromosomes that define female or male it cannot be either. Genetic identity is established by chromosomes at conception, and only become manifest once cell division has progressed to the stage of genital development.

http://www.menshealth.com/health/3-signs-you-started-as-a-girl

about fetal sex development but everything else I've presented is
accurate.

And I stand by my statement that many people are biased about the issue for religious, sexual and/or cultural reasons and seek (faulty) evidence to the contrary to confirm their own prejudice

Don't know why you referenced menshealth.com. Anyone who has had Biology 101 should know the process of egg generation, fertilization, and sex development. When I was a kid this was 7th grade.

Perhaps this reference is too far above the average person's scientific acumen:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK26842/

There are others not so complex. Generally, those found with "edu" in the website is a good start, not popular sites that are especially known for left-wing agenda.

I have no dispute with people being biased about sexual identity in society. Such is inevitable with humans. As to the comments of what is actually taking place in the brain, one should be very careful in this area, as there is yet a great deal to be learned about brain function as an organ. Just because differences in brain structure can be identified by tomography, and certain locations present activity related to gender identity vs sexual identity defined at conception, it is premature to make conclusions about what is being observed there. The science of brain function is still very much in infancy and there are a number of medical researchers claiming things they either cannot possibly know, and/or have no credible evidence to support their conclusions.

My suggestion on this topic is for those interested in getting to the core of the issue, begin reading the trade journals (like the Journal of American Medicine being typical), doing their own research and not relying on popular press releases.

stokars Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Perhaps this reference is too far above the
> average person's scientific acumen:
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK26842/

No, not at all.
That reference doesn't, however, back up any of your assertions (or denials). And the "Men's Health" article correctly describes the embryonic development process. If you'll search on the scientist they cite in the "Men's Health" article, you'll find his research papers that back up what the article says.

> ...not popular sites that are especially known for
> left-wing agenda.

In general you have a point about "popular sites" -- but you don't have a point about any "left-wing agenda." "Popular" sites all tend to make mistakes when reporting on science, and that's true on the right and the left. However, if you'll do your homework, and look up the papers of the people they quote, as well as contrary papers, you can find out facts. Which, in this case, "Men's Health" hit pretty well. Or is that too much work for you?

> My suggestion on this topic is for those
> interested in getting to the core of the issue,
> begin reading the trade journals (like the Journal
> of American Medicine being typical), doing their
> own research and not relying on popular press
> releases.

There is no "Journal of American Medicine."

Did you perhaps mean the "Journal of the American Medical Association?" (http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama )

Or the "American Journal of Medicine?" (http://www.amjmed.com/current)

At any rate, while it's not absolutely proven that brain structure/chemistry is the main source of gender association, there's a lot of evidence pointing that way. And while the research continues, I personally don't see any reason to treat people who feel themselves to be a different gender than their biological parts suggest as anything other than human beings who merit the same respect, care, and concern as any other human being.

OK. So you don't. Just checking.

Rotary Wrote:

> I realize this topic is loaded with emotions and
> that many support the current, trendy, views of
> gender. And I also get the sincere, and
> praiseworthy, desire to defend minorities of all
> kinds.

Or maybe, just maybe, it's possible some of us actually did the work of researching deeply into these issues and realized what the research actually shows about gender and biology instead of blindly accepting what the status quo claims is correct aka the naturalistic fallacy?

It's cute how you minimize it as trendy, like holographic lips or the mannequin challenge.

Rotary, thanks for speaking the truth. I think some exmos are so eager to push away what a Mormon would say that they're losing their sense of reality.

You don't decide what the "truth" is first. You gather the facts then make a conclusion. If the facts don't support your hunches you have to modify your ideas to fit the facts -- not the other way around.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2016 08:21PM by anybody.

Men are born with a penis and women with a vagina. Stop encouraging delusion. A few scientists don't support the binary, well many do, and I will not accept a man who "feels like a woman." He's not a woman, and will never be.

what makes someone "male?"


What makes someone "female?"


Turns out it's not a simple matter to define the difference:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_in_sports


An obstetrician actually has to check several things and make a determination to assign sex to a newborn. Look up a medical text and you'll see how involved it is.

There are many uncommon but not so rare cases where it's not so clear cut. Then what do you do? What about the brain? How do you know how someone will see themselves or behave?

As I have mentioned, it used to be common practice to convert any infant with deformed organs via surgery to female -- in terms of anatomy...but not mentally. Today this is no longer the case. They wait until the child is old enough to express what their sexual identity is.


I know it seems counter-intuitive but that's the heart of the matter. Parts don't decide what you are. Your brain does.


You don't "feel" right-handed or left-handed. You just are.


You are what you are and no one can change how you see yourself. If you have a sexual identity that is not the same as your biological sex no one can change that. What can be changed is to adapt the body to fit the brain.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/2016 11:22AM by anybody.

So intersex people don't exist?

And throughout history, all the cultures that believed differently are wrong and this one is right?

Sounds like yours is the opinion based on emotion. You just feel like there's a binary, so there must be one.

Gia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I will not
> accept a man who "feels like a woman." He's not a
> woman, and will never be.

Thanks for letting us know that you've made up your mind, no matter what the evidence shows. Good to know.

I think this is a relevant topic because of Mormonism's sexual repression, transphobia, emphasis on "eternal" gender and "celestial" sex, and so on.


Perhaps after 2060 when The Church is collapsing they will adapt the "spirit baby" theory to explain foetal brain development and gender identity and proclaim their doctrines "always" explained transsexuality and that it was just "misinterpreted."

If any person has had either gender reassignment operations, or have been artificially given harmones for the purpose of making them either more male or more female than they would be without those harmones, that's where to draw the line. I would want to know about that before deciding to date or have sex with that person. You can make friends with someone before it gets that far, enough that it should be safe to tell them. Anything other than full disclosure of the facts very early on, is a betrayal of the other person's sexual boundries (no excuses). The other person should get to decide, not have the transgender person decide for them, what their own boundries should be. Even if you want to be a discriminating homophobic, judgemental asshole, it's your right to be that way if you choose to be, and those judgemental boundries still need to be respected. Omitting critical information is like the "milk before the meat" gaslighting that the church condones. It's completely unacceptable. I would absolutely freak out if someone hid that information from me in any kind of intemate relationship.

This is Hailee Steinfeld. She is mixed race with a multi-ethnic background:

http://www.hawtcelebs.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/hailee-steinfeld-in-flare-magazine-may-2015-issue_1.jpg

Suppose we were in 1956 and Ms. Steinfeld was "exposed" in Confidential Magazine. According to the "one drop" rule she would be considered a "negro" using the terminology that existed then and wouldn't be allowed to have much of an acting career. In our era, it's no longer a significant issue.

Fast forward to the twenty-first century. Again I ask the question: If someone has all of the physical attributes that you consider "normal" no matter their genetic status isn't that difference only in your mind? If you meet an XY woman with AIS she may not even know that she is isn't biologically female. Will you demand to know someone's total medical history before dating them? What's the difference between this issue and say a skinhead dating a girl who is Jewish or an ex-racist dating a black person?


The point I'm trying to make here is that what you perceive as deception is really the manifestation of an arbitrarily imposed social construct. Things that matter to you may not matter to someone else or vice versa.

You are entitled to your own preferences but I just don't see how it would make any difference. I think it should be up to them if they tell you or not.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2016 11:38PM by anybody.

I didn't know how to say this, but you said it very well, anybody...

Thank you!!!

If someone is an insulin-injecting diabetic at a young age, or was told they can never have kids, is that private information to be withheld from their sex and marriage partners too? When looking for someone to mate with, anything that is intentionally kept secret could be something that should be shared. To say that something like harmone induced physical gender changes or surgical gender reassignment are not worth disclosing is delusional. It matters. If a woman can attract me and doesn't have the proper type of chromosones and may or may not know it, whatever it is, it's natural. But I get creeped out any time someone changes significant attributes that nature gave them about their gender, and they keep it a secret to those who have a right to know.

"Why didn't you tell me before we started dating -- why did I have to find out from somebody else?"

Find out what? What are you talking about?

"You know what I'm talking about."

No, I don't. You'll have to tell me.

"Why didn't you tell me your grandfather was black?"

What? Are you kidding? So What? That's important to you? What difference does it make?

"I can't be associated with someone like that."


****************************************************************


The imaginary people in this example were attracted to each other. The only thing that changed was the perceived status of one person in the mind of the other.


How do you know if a relationship will even work out when your first meet someone? How do you even know what matters to someone if you don't know them? Are you going to demand DNA, CAT scans, MRIs and a complete physical just to go out on a date?

Privacy is also important. Medical information should be kept private. I would imagine that people would talk about things before having a serious relationship after they got to know each other. I met a guy once who had a terrible temper. I didn't know that about him at first. I only found out what he was like after going out with him for a while. That's life.


As time passes there will be ever increasing numbers of trans people who have had access to medical treatment at the early stages and you won't be able to "tell." This may be a big deal to you now because of the environment you were raised in but for elementary and middle school kids now it's making less and less of a difference. By the time they are working career adults twenty years from now genetic status will be just that -- status.

They will wonder why it made any difference at all in your mind.