Below are excerpts from an e-mail I received from someone in the ward. Maybe I should just respond and say I have too much integrity to do what you do? This stuff just gets so tiresome.. why can't I live around normal people?
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"The LDS Church thing has been good for me. And if somehow I learned tomorrow that this whole Joseph Smith/Book of Mormon deal has been the most amazing hoax pulled over on the human race, I would still be grateful for what I learned attending this church and what it has provided me. And I don’t think I would change anything or regret any part of my membership."

"No matter what issues you may be personally experiencing in regards to your beliefs of the gospel or the church in general, going to church with your family and living the teachings of the church is still the right thing to do. No matter what your personal beliefs are."

"I will have to admit that it makes me sad to see your good wife show up to church all alone. She deserves to have her husband by her side. (my son) also needs your example more than ever right now."

I'd say that if that's what's right for him/her, then more power to them. But your own sense of honesty and integrity tells you what's right for you. You respect their choice, just as they should respect yours.

But I have to laugh at the "hoax pulled over on the human race." They really think they're a huge player in the world, don't they? When really, they're so very tiny, sitting in their one little corner of the world.

Sitting there in their little box, while the entire rest of the world plays outside of it.

Good point about respecting what works for him- I just get a little defensive when he pulls my family in to it. I will give it a day then respond.

Give them a reply like this.

You are quite the self righteous one aren’t you? How would a person with any shred of integrity that learned that an organization had systematically lied to not only them but to generations, still turn away from the reality of the facts and still call it “all good”?

Though you don’t at this time believe that I am setting a good example it is my hope that my example will eventually be vindicated as the youth of this church learn what their parents have hidden from them in their zeal to protect testimonies.

My issues are none of your business as you have no religious or any other kind of authority over me and your being sad does not make my not attending with my wife wrong by a long shot. You sir have done nothing but call me on the carpet via an unjustified guilt trip which I will politely ignore, once.

Your son needing my example implies that he is lacking other examples. I don’t think there is a need to expound on this.

BTW no thank you for the (well meant on your part) but condescending and accusatory message to me. Listening to “you’rewrongimonies” is one reason I no longer attend.

In the future you and I should talk face to face so that there are no misunderstanding personal boundaries. Just in case I have misread you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2011 12:03AM by AmIDarkNow?.

AmIDarkNow?- I missed out on responding to your post a while back. It really hit me hard, probably because it seems I am treading down the same path where you currently find yourself. It sounds like you have found some measure of peace? I hope so, you certainly deserve it. I feel like I would give everything away to live an authentic life with a spouse who loves me unconditionally. It will be hard to get there, but that's where I want to be. Thanks for sharing your story.

saying "be patient, it gets better". It just takes longer than we'd like.

Got to remember the years it took to get where we are. It will take years to recover from the kind of mental and physical surgery we've gone through.

I don't know your situation but my advice is to take it slow with the wife. You know her best. You don't want to waste life being married to a person who won't love you un-conditionally, yet why throw out a marriage and suffer with the financial and emotional family turmoils.

It's a damned catch 22!

> "The LDS Church thing has been good for me.
.... I would still be grateful for what I learned
> attending this church and what it has provided me.
> And I don’t think I would change anything or
> regret any part of my membership."

This person cannot predict how he/she would feel. LD$ have a difficult time acknowledging that people are different. TSCC cultivates the attitude, and belief in members that it is the center of everything, and the source of all good. There is only one way. This is just brainwashing, because he cannot fathom life outside TSCC.

This person likely only feels gratitude for what he got from TSCC, because he knows nothing different. If he recognized value in life outside of TSCC, that life can be good without profits, and without religion, he might not be so eager to parrot back the party line. He might feel intense regret or anger, because he would be grieving a loss.

> "No matter what issues you may be personally
> experiencing in regards to your beliefs of the
> gospel or the church in general, going to church
> with your family and living the teachings of the
> church is still the right thing to do. No matter
> what your personal beliefs are."

Personal issues can be code for "sin". This is brainwashing to me. What about integrity, and standing for the truth, and what you believe in? They are encouraging you to live a lie by putting up a false front.

> "I will have to admit that it makes me sad to see
> your good wife show up to church all alone. She
> deserves to have her husband by her side. (my
> son) also needs your example more than ever right
> now."

Of course this is guilt, and shaming to get you in line with the obedience program.

Thank you for your concern for me and my family. I have not come to my decision hastily and appreciate your understanding with what has been a difficult journey. For now, I am at peace with my actions and decisions and know we all have separate paths to achieve spiritual fulfillment. Thank you for giving me the space to allow me to achieve mine.

This ward member is very invested in how you believe. He believes that what is right, and works for him is right for everyone. He needs to live his own eleventh article of faith.

Everyone needs to follow their own path and I congratulate you on doing that. It is hard sometimes.

How often is it that we let the bullies of the world push us around without pushing back. If this person walked into your home and started going through your underwear drawer, would you stop them and throw them out or stand there and let them?

This person felt the need to intrude into your personal life and I think it would be appropriate to respond, but there are many ways to respond. You could go over to their house with a can of gasoline and a book of matches (REALLY REALLY BAD IDEA) or you could politely tell that person to mind their own business. I would send them an email thanking them for their concern and remind them of the 11th article of faith. You may even add that if they would like to know why you left, you would be happy to sit down and talk to them about it (if you want or not).

Good luck.


http://lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng

11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Why dignify the intrusion with a response? You're not going to change her mind and she's not going to change yours.

How about, I'm glad it works for you, but it doesn't work for me"?

How I would respond depends on the relationship. Are they a close friend? a friend of your wifes? someone from elders quorum? bishopric? and how important maintaining a good relationship is with the person.

I have the tact of hand-grenade, so I would probably say something like "I appreciate your concern for me and my family. It is clear that you are more concerned about me than about the church. I've given your email some thought and realized that I am wrong on a few things. I had always thought that peoples affairs were their own concern and none of my business. My integrity would never allow me to pry into other peoples lives, what they think, how they run their family, and guilt them into doing things that they know are wrong. Since I always strive to do the right thing I'll follow your example, when would be a good time for me to come over, criticize your life and family, and tell you what to do?"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2011 12:57AM by dino.

"She deserves to have her husband by her side."

The response: She should be by the husband's side. According to the LDS religion the husband is the leader of the family, so why would anyone say the wife that defies the leader of the household deserves to have her husband by her side?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2011 01:03AM by MJ.

Funny thing is most of the human race has not fallen for Joseph's myth. And it sounds like this man suffers from Stockholms sydrome. He has fallen in love with his captor and has delusions of how truely powerful the church is.

I would send him and email with this video clip and call him Brother Gothel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MGTkIFG8kM&feature=related

I really enjoyed the movie Tangled. It is like a metaphor for growing up in the Mormon Church... or any church that uses isolation and fear to control their followers. Like Rapunzel they could leave anytime but because of ongoing manipulation and internalized fear they stay. The Tower is kind of like Plato's cave. And Mother Gothel could easily read Mother Gospel.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2011 11:31AM by taddlywog.

Can you imagine someone telling you that you should show up at the mosque for prayer time, even though you don't believe? The children need you to be there. What harm can it do for you to attend and go through the motions? Are you so offended?

Why don't Mormons go to services at their local Catholic church even if they don't believe it? What harm could it do? Go to to the Seventh Day Adventists meeting on Saturday, it won't interrupt attendance at Sacrament meeting.

What, Brother Sorrensen, are you offended?

He is speaking about your family to lay guilt at your feet. Don't allow that. And don't allow his shallow thinking that it is right to go to a church when you have issues with it and your belief system is different now. He has no right to tell you what is RIGHT for you. You do not wish to fake it. He thinks you should. Be upfront with those closest to you and let this person go give direction to others. Tell him you are not interested in any more opinions from him. You have listened, thought about it and now will proceed as you think is best for you.

People like your "friend" who wrote to you, who would discover a lie or a corrupt practice that hurts others, and would keep silent about it, because that lie benefits them in some way, are dishonorable and are not worthy of your trust or your respect.

He has just told you he would feel fine being a liar, and would continue to lie to get what he wants out of an organization he believed to be false and corrupt. You are not him, and would not do/are not doing that. You do not need him in your life, you do not need his bad advice, but you do need to tell him this directly, perhaps even face to face.

Give him these analogies:

He's a doctor who does not properly inform his patient of the risks and benefits of the surgery he plans to perform on said patient; he does not tell the patient that there is only a 10% chance that the surgery will make the patient better, or be successful. The patient, without knowing everything he needs to know, and because the surgeon is well known and respected and has a sterling reputation in the community, agrees to the surgery and dies. Did the surgeon do anything wrong or immoral in this scenario? Does he owe a debt of any kind to this person, or to this person's family?

A financial advisor, because it benefits him via a kickback or bonus scheme unknown to those who hire him, continually advises his clients to purchase certain stocks/securities which provide such a bonus to him, but which are not in his clients' best interests. Does he have anything to feel bad for? Is he a good businessman? A good person? Should we trust his opinions on political candidates, or which school is best for our children, after we discover his shady business practices?

Legal or not legal is not the question here. The question is whether or not what someone is doing is ethical or moral, and if it is not, what their responsibility in correcting any resulting wrong might be.

As for the implications inherent in him talking about your wife and your child as if they were his family members, or as if he had the right to interfere in your family dynamic, I'd have to set him straight on that, too.

But I'd first have a talk with the wife, to find out if she played into this or helped things along, by divulging anything to him she should have discussed with you.

In the second paragraph he contradicts his first. In his first paragraph he is pragmatic - even if the Mormon church is false, it has brought him good things. Yes, members of most religions could say that about their faith.

In the second paragraph he says that going to (his) church is the right thing to do even if it is false, because it isn't false.

As to the terrible hoax: Honestly, there have been much larger hoaxes perpetrated on humans than this tiny, insignificant little local American church. He should be told not to exaggerate his own importance.

My reply:
"The non-attendance thing has been good for me. And if somehow I learned tomorrow that this whole Joseph Smith/Book of Mormon deal has been the most amazing truth given to the human race, I would still be grateful for what I learned by not attending that church. And I don’t think I would change anything or regret any part of my non attendance."

"No matter what warm feelings you may be personally experiencing in regards to your beliefs of the gospel or the church in general, not going to church with my family and not living the teachings of the church is still the right thing for me to do. No matter what your personal beliefs are."

"I will have to admit that it makes me sad to see my good wife show up to that fraudulent church all alone. She deserves to be by her husbands side. Your son also needs my example more than ever right now so I will be happy to sit him down and explain what I believe and why. Please forward his e mail address so I can do as you suggest and give him the benefit of my example."

I can't help but take a slightly sarcastic approach: "It's so great that you can be mellow about being the butt of a hoax. me, I can't." Just saying...

reminded me of the email I got from my TBM BIL -- "it breaks my heart to see you break your covenants"

"breaks your heart?" ... wtf? are we in some sort of romantic relationship?

TBMs have no boundaries.

I am blocking you from my email account. I would rather read spam, than your nonsensical jibberish.

Sincerely,
jon1

Doesn't that say it all? Not the teachings of the Christ they profess to be about, but the teachings of the "church."

Would you really sit in a church that demands your full compliance, if you knew it is false just to be seen of men?

You are either a hypocrit or a liar or both.

And please stop thinking about my son.

I have to admit, I like this response!!

and what happens when/if it doesn't--like it did for me? I didn't know all the lies. My life experience was such that it didn't matter how hard I tried to twist it around in my mind, it didn't work.

Don't we all wish at some time that it had been true? That they REALLY HAD all the answers? Even my dad on his death bed--just after my mother died--was trying to understand where she was. Anyone wonder when they were mormon--after someone died--where they were? Were they still there? What if the mormons were wrong?

They can talk all they want about some of these things and when push comes to shove, they don't really know and if your "friend" wants to live with that fake security blanket, that is up to him, but you don't have to.

When I needed them to have answers, they just didn't not have any, they had the wrong ones. I was just talking to my ex yesterday about how depressed I was then--suicidal for 18 months straight--and they told me things like, "Satan is working hard on you because you are trying to do such a great thing." Not--You know, you've gone over the edge, you need HELP. Nope--Satan is working on you.

I asked my Catholic friends--after the priest sex abuse scandal became public some years back how they felt about it. They said, "It is unfortunate." It isn't JUST unfortunate when it happens to you or your's.

So--just because he/she says so--mormonism is the right way. I proved to myself just through life experience that they were DEAD WRONG. They like to give everyone a false sense of security.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2011 11:23AM by cl2.