I realized how people get sucked into this church.

There are more ways than this, but this is the top three.

(This also applies to Jehovah Witnesses)

1) YOU ARE LOOKING FOR A CHURCH/RELIGION, *BUT* YOU NEVER REALLY STUDIED THE BIBLE AND YOU ARE IGNORANT OF IT'S TEACHINGS.

2) YOU ARE IN A TIME OF CRISIS IN YOUR LIFE, AND YOU NEED A FRIEND AND ARE SEARCHING FOR SOLUTIONS.

3) YOU ARE BORN INTO THE CHURCH, AND THIS IS ALL YOU HAVE EVER KNOWN.

That's it folks.

You are born into it, or you are going through a rough patch and the missionaries knocked at the right time... or ...you know little to nothing of the Bible.

I want to spend a little time on number 1 from above.

If you study the Bible, I mean really read it, lets take the modern NIV version... you become "Mormon proof" (and JW proof as well).

There are many teachings in the Bible that DIRECTLY CONTRADICT the teachings that you get from the missionaries.

There are several, but here is two right off the bat:

1) ETERNAL TEMPLE MARRIAGES.
2) JOSEPH SMITHS FIRST VISION.

Both of those directly contradict the Bible...

1) Jesus said himself that when we die, we are all angels in heaven. MARRIAGE DOES NOT EXIST IN HEAVEN. Jesus was directly asked this question, and he made a crystal clear answer.

This is why marriages say "until death do you part", and some people say "Heaven gained another Angel"...

2) Jesus also said that after he ascends to heaven, that he will not be returning to earth until the very end.

When he does return to earth, it will be in full view of the entire planet.

He EXPLICITLY STATES that he will not return to one man in the wilderness, or another in a hidden room. He says if ANYONE comes to you and makes this claim, don't believe it.

He said to watch out for false prophets and false messiahs that will lead many astray, even the most devout believers.

So, when missionaries try to give discussions, they really have to find people that are:

1) Ignorant of the Bible teachings.
2) Going through rough times, AND #1 above.

If you know the Bible, and what Jesus said himself (red lettered), then you call BS on the missionaries right away, and send them packing.

Basically, Joseph Smith is calling Jesus Christ himself a liar.

Joseph Smith knew of these problems in the New Testament, and this is why we have the Joseph Smith translation. He had to change chapters and verses to fit the church narrative.

He had to fix the above two issues, and many others that did not agree with the Church's teachings.

(Jehovah's Witnesses did the same thing, and created the "New World Translation" of the Bible)

This is why they believe in the Bible, AS LONG AS IT IS TRANSLATED CORRECTLY.

Joseph Smith died before he could complete the re-translation of the Bible.

The next prophets never resumed his work... and now the church is stuck using the KJV and never really canonized the Joseph Smith translation.

When scriptures are taught in the Mormon church, they conveniently skip over sections of the Bible that contradict the teachings of the church. Many lesson manuals totally disregard entire chapters.

I went digging through institute manuals, Sunday school manuals, etc... and they jump right over those controversial chapters like they weren't even there.

Many devout Mormons don't even know about the top two contradictions above, it's never been taught, and it's not in any manual, anywhere.

FOR THE LURKERS:

Do you still have faith, and really want your eyes opened? Go get the latest "Zondervan NIV Study Bible" and start reading...

You will learn cool stuff like women in the priesthood, multiple prophets at the same time, tithing is optional, many things that the Mormon church teaches is just plain wrong and does not agree with the Bible at all.

You don't even have to talk about the PGP, seer stones, or flaming swords, or any of that stuff and disprove Mormonism with the Bible itself!

When you add all the other stuff, then it's all over.

FOR THE ATHEISTS:

I know that using the Bible to disprove Mormonism is wrong in your book, as you believe the Bible is bunk as well.

However, there are many on this board that still believe, and are still trying to find their way, and jumping from a devout Mormon to an atheist is too much to ask.

What verse(s) are you referring to here?:

"He EXPLICITLY STATES that he will not return to one man in the wilderness, or another in a hidden room. He says if ANYONE comes to you and makes this claim, don't believe it."

Yeah, ok.
Your #1 is a big problem, though. Because you assume (and it's not at all a reasonable assumption) that the bible is "true."

When actually, if you REALLY study the bible, you'll discover it's a cobbled-together amalgam of ancient ignorant superstition that is self-contradictory, contradictory to actual history, and wholly unsupportable in its claims.

You should also notice, I think, that there isn't "one correct" reading of the bible anyway. The 30,000+ christian sects that exist, all claiming to "know" what the bible means and all contradicting each other, should be clear evidence of that.

#2 and #3 were reasonably spot-on, though.

I trusted to be flamed by the known atheists on this board, that's why I added an atheist section.

Your comment, and the others below you were well expected.

yeppers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I trusted to be flamed by the known atheists on
> this board, that's why I added an atheist
> section.
>
> Your comment, and the others below you were well
> expected.

Was that because you knew ahead of time what a lousy argument you were making, and that rational people would point that out?

You wrote:
"...jumping from a devout Mormon to an atheist is too much to ask."

I personally know hundreds of people who did just that. Clearly, it's NOT "too much to ask."

I notice, by the way, that you ignored my points about the 30,000+ differing christian sects and their conflicting "understanding" of what the bible says and means, and you just insist that this one study website has all the answers.

You don't have to be an atheist to see how false *that* claim is.

I'm not getting into a flame war with you.

You are a WELL KNOWN atheist on this board that likes to pick fights and shout down anyone with any thread of faith left.

This post was not targeted to atheists.

It was targeted to those who quietly read the board and have doubts about the church.

yeppers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not getting into a flame war with you.

You kinda already did.

> You are a WELL KNOWN atheist on this board that
> likes to pick fights and shout down anyone with
> any thread of faith left.

Oh, I'm a WELL KNOWN atheist. Cool. That's not a bad thing, you know.

Look, I'm glad you got out. I'm glad you want to help others get out. Lousy arguments aren't likely to help others get out. Preaching to them to take YOUR particular subjective idea of "christianity" instead of the one they're already in isn't likely to help them get out. I didn't "shout down" anybody, including you -- I pointed out a lousy argument. You, however, ARE trying to "shout down" anybody who doesn't agree with your lousy arguments.

> This post was not targeted to atheists.
> It was targeted to those who quietly read the
> board and have doubts about the church.

This post, like all others, is open to discussion by everyone. Have you considered that any mormons "quietly reading" the site might appreciate varying points of view? Apparently not.

Wow... gaslighting.

I expected more from you Hie.

so quit picking fights with us "known Atheists".
your bullshit is totally bogus.

How exactly is he "gas-lighting"? I'm actually curious, because I don't see it.

I wasn't.
I was responding to the OP's insistence that I not say anything about his SHOCKING TRUTH...because I'm a WELL KNOWN atheist (gasp!).

"Gaslighting is a form of manipulation that seeks to sow seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or members of a group, hoping to make targets question their own memory, perception, and sanity. Using persistent denial, misdirection, contradiction, and lying, it attempts to destabilize the target and delegitimize the target's belief."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2017 11:45AM by ificouldhietokolob.

Oh, I know you weren't... I wanted to see how in the world yeppers was going to say you had.

yeppers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I trusted to be flamed by the known atheists on
> this board, that's why I added an atheist
> section.

People who know him personally can attest that he's a joyless, sniveling pustule outside of the forum too.

You, on the other hand, sound like a lovely person.

Using the Bible against Mormonism only shows that Mormonism isn't conventional Christianity. It doesn't prove anything about Christianity.

Besides, Christianity is loaded with people who never studied any religion or scriptures, were going through a life crisis, needed help, and were born into it. People who are happy and content don't go looking to shake up their lives. They're not interested in fixing what ain't broke.

ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your #1 is a big problem, though. Because you
> assume (and it's not at all a reasonable
> assumption) that the bible is "true."


No, as RPackham noted elsewhere, the Bible need not be true for Mormons to discern that there are genuine, faith-shaking conflicts between it and the BoM.


ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When actually, if you REALLY study the bible,
> you'll discover it's a cobbled-together amalgam of
> ancient ignorant superstition that is
> self-contradictory, contradictory to actual
> history, and wholly unsupportable in its claims.


This is simply your opinion. While it may hold true for some, many others have studied the Bible and found "truth" that works for them within it.


ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The
> 30,000+ christian sects that exist, all claiming
> to "know" what the bible means and all
> contradicting each other, should be clear evidence
> of that.


Clear evidence? Can you name 30,000 Christian sects?
You say they are "all contradicting each other." That's a lot of contradictions...Can you list them?

This "thousands of sects" argument is a red herring anyway, because they count every independent, self-governing congregation to be its own denomination. But, since you say that they ALL contradict each other, then only one counter-example is needed to disprove your claim. So, can you tell me how the First Baptist Church of Atlanta, Georgia "contradicts" the First Baptist Church of Charlotte, North Carolina?


It's easy to get online and make hyperbolic assertions in a sympathetic echo chamber. It's quite another to back up your claims and substantiate your arguments.

I think you were doing pretty good till you got here:

"Clear evidence? Can you name 30,000 Christian sects?"

Pointing out that the number might be incorrect is one thing... But do you really think that Catholics, Protestants, Baptists, and Lutherans all agree on the interpretation of the Bible? That's just four major groups, there are a lot more. If they all agreed on their interpretation of the Bible, there wouldn't be 4, let alone the actual number of sects that are out there, there would only be one.

So, the spirit of his argument for this point still stands.

My point is not to be "right" so much as to point out how easy it is to poke holes in each other's arguments. And for what purpose? To be "right" for the sake of being right? Is it really helping anyone?


Meanwhile, TBMs come here and draw the conclusion that exMo's are hateful nasty people. In other words, their leaders are "right."

"And for what purpose? To be "right" for the sake of being right? Is it really helping anyone?"

First, I don't recall ever seeing ificouldhietokolob post anything just because he wanted to be right. He points out inaccuracies and logical fallacies. As for if it's helping anyone, it helped me. A lot. Having my assumptions and arguments challenged forced me to either make them stronger or reject them.

Also, pointing out someone's inaccurate statements helps ensure that those people who are leaving the church or questioning it, that they will find accurate information, rather than more lies or just another church trying to convert them. Accurate, factual information is the best way to combat that. Otherwise TBMs will come here an see that Ex-Mo's are lying and twist the facts to their means. In other words, their leaders are "right."

Anon4This Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No, as RPackham noted elsewhere, the Bible need
> not be true for Mormons to discern that there are
> genuine, faith-shaking conflicts between it and
> the BoM.

Except that if you don't consider the bible "true," then whether or not mormonism has "conflicts" with it doesn't matter. Mormonism contradicting the bible only matters if you think what the bible says is TRUE. If you don't, whether it contradicts it or not is irrelevant.


> This is simply your opinion. While it may hold
> true for some, many others have studied the Bible
> and found "truth" that works for them within it.

No, those are facts. It COULD be all those things and still have "truths that work" for people in it. And, clearly, it does. That doesn't change the fact that it's cobbled together from the works of many (mostly unknown) authors, that it's extremely self-contradictory, and reflects ancient ignorant superstition.


> Clear evidence? Can you name 30,000 Christian
> sects?
> You say they are "all contradicting each other."
> That's a lot of contradictions...Can you list
> them?

World Christian Encyclopedia (David A. Barrett; Oxford University Press, 1982) estimated almost 21,000 denominations, and the updated World Christian Encyclopedia (Barrett, Kurian, Johnson; Oxford Univ Press, 2nd edition, 2001) estimated at least 33,000. “Denomination” is defined as “an organised christian group within a country”. I used "sect," an acceptable alternative.

The Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary estimated 34,000 denominations in 2000, rising to an estimated 43,000 in 2012. These numbers have exploded from 1,600 in the year 1900.

So, yes, I can. Go look up the references like I did.
I'll leave spending the hundreds of thousands of hours it would take to list all their contradictory beliefs as an exercise for you.

> This "thousands of sects" argument is a red
> herring anyway, because they count every
> independent, self-governing congregation to be its
> own denomination.

As documented above, that's a false statement. And since the numbers come from mostly *christian* sources, then christians are putting up their own "red herring." Don't blame me.

> But, since you say that they ALL
> contradict each other, then only one
> counter-example is needed to disprove your claim.
> So, can you tell me how the First Baptist Church
> of Atlanta, Georgia "contradicts" the First
> Baptist Church of Charlotte, North Carolina?

Nice straw-man. Those are the same sect. And I already showed why your claim that the same denominations are counted was false.
Want to try again?

> It's easy to get online and make hyperbolic
> assertions in a sympathetic echo chamber. It's
> quite another to back up your claims and
> substantiate your arguments.

Well, gee, how about that -- I DID back up mine, and showed YOURS false.
Next time, do your research. I always do.

34000 in 2000? 43000 in 2012?

What happened to 30000?

What I'm hearing is that you posted something that was factually incorrect! I thought you did your research...?

"And for what purpose? To be "right" for the sake of being right? Is it really helping anyone?"

Pot, meet kettle.

Oh, come on! I was hoping someone would point out that he said 30000 *PLUS*, so that I could then point out that 40000+ would be much more accurate.

It's easy to be an a$$hole, right? I could do this all day, but what would it prove?

Look, Hie is clearly one of the smartest people on this site. I used to enjoy his posts. I just hate to see him squander his talent on posts like this. His right, sure, but a shame nonetheless. And it's not just Hie. The same goes for other posters as well.

"It's easy to be an a$$hole, right? I could do this all day, but what would it prove?"

Then why are you doing it? You realize that you have become the thing you are arguing against.

If you have a problem with his posts and what he's posting about, then post about that. Responding with poor logic, being pedantic, and argumentative just to make a point isn't helping make that point.

Also, if your concern is how threads like these are perceived by TBM lurkers, you're not helping as all you're doing is intentionally derailing it to make your "point"

Anon4This Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 34000 in 2000? 43000 in 2012?
>
> What happened to 30000?
>
> What I'm hearing is that you posted something that
> was factually incorrect! I thought you did your
> research...?

Well, no, I didn't post something factually incorrect.
I posted:

"The 30,000+ christian sects..."

How many there are changes so often that it's hard to keep up. I was correct, though -- there are 30,000+. :)

I'm glad I fulfilled your wish.

I didn't post on this to "be right."
I thought the OP's #1 "point" was a lousy argument. I said so.
And I said why I thought it was a lousy argument.
Instead of making a counter argument for a different position, which would have been fine and might have been a good discussion for everyone, the OP basically told me to shut up.

That's the best way to NOT get me to shut up. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2017 08:32PM by ificouldhietokolob.

And the problem with truth is that it is all relative...

I was looking forward to a discussion - and not an inquisition.... this could have been good...

sigh....

most on this board gotta display that they and only they have the TRUTH. gad sounds like being mormon....

I don't follow the "clear evidence".....

There was clear evidence that the world was flat at one time -

your "il"logic escapes me....

Frodo Baggins, a prophet is never late. He arrives exactly when he intends to arrive.

Yes, by all means, study that Bible. It will protect you for sure.

Bleah.

The buy-bull refutes itself better than any other source.

Actually, although I am atheist, I agree with Yeppers that one who knows the Bible and accepts it as inspired will be less likely to succumb to Mormon proselytizing. I see nothing wrong with that. It has nothing to do with whether the Bible really IS inspired - it only has to do with whether the investigator BELIEVES it is inspired.

Exactly. Wise RPackham as always.

my mother grew up studying the Bible (don't think my dad did), they weren't in crisis, and they weren't born in the church. Their best friends were mormon, and their friends loving invited them to church many times. My parents turned them down many times. Finally they went, started the lessons with missionaries, and joining the church felt right. Of course, they weren't told the whole story. They didn't even know about garments, or polygamy,at the time.

So, for my parents, it was loving friends, and lack of internet to tell them the rest of the story.

Items 1 & 2 applied to me when I was an 18 year old, in crisis, trying to make sense out of living in the turbulent times of the late 1960s early 1970s. I was also--in Kohlberg's Stages of Moral Development--A good boy trying to obey the laws (rules) my parents gave me.

There are several things I agree with the OP, others I disagree with. But, I'm glad all of us have a place where we can let out our feeling about Mormonism. My struggles with RfM are the conflicts we create over disagreements.

Yeppers, you made some strong arguments, but why kick the atheists? You knew what they would say. Atheists, why did you take the bait?

I think I'd better go do something to brighten my day--where did I put my lube? The Boner.

Sorry Boner... I didn't mean to bait the atheists.

What occurred above happens naturally when you don't suggest that Mormons convert directly to atheism. It happens all the time on this board.

I have personally witnessed Hie relentlessly attack other posters resulting in maxing out posts to where it had to be continued 2 or 3 times. I lurked on this board for several years before my first post, so I am well aware of the history with Hie.

I knew that Hie wouldn't be able to control himself, that's why I put in the atheist section to announce that I do understand to atheists that using the Bible to disprove Mormonism is a weak argument.

However, there are many people that do not want to be atheist, and this board does not help them very much because of all the slamming they get from the atheists (and especially nevermo atheists) that come here and pick fights.

Some are nothing more than brutes looking for vulnerable targets... and there is a lot of vulnerable people posting here, which makes this a tasty feast for bullies.

Why don't people convert directly to atheism? They have personal reasons. Maybe it's not just a "feeling". Maybe they have witnessed personal miracles in their lives that they can't deny. Whatever the cause is, we need to give information, and support to the posters and those that are hurting.

NOT tell people that they are wrong and what they are saying is "lousy" to pick fights.

Hie, if you respond to this post, with your usual antics, I'm telling you in advance that I will not reply.

I think you've got ificouldhietokolob wrong... You can of course, disagree, but he hasn't "attacked" anyone, not even you.

What he did do was point out problems with your argument. That's not attacking. It's an opportunity for you to respond, explaining why you think he's wrong, or make corrections to your argument, or you can ignore him.

"However, there are many people that do not want to be atheist, and this board does not help them very much because of all the slamming they get from the atheists (and especially nevermo atheists) that come here and pick fights."

I haven't seen this. People disagreeing with you isn't "picking fights". It's an internet board after all, people are going to respond. That's actually supposed to be a good thing. Having my ideas challenged was a very good thing for me leaving the church. It forced me to reflect on why I thought the way that I did and helped guide me.

Also, who are these "nevermo atheists" you speak of? I know there are a few nevermo's on the board, but I don't think I've seen them "attacking" anyone.

"NOT tell people that they are wrong and what they are saying is "lousy" to pick fights."

Also, when ificouldhietokolob tells anyone that they are wrong, it's usually to point out that they've stated something that is factually incorrect. I don't recall him ever responding to someone stating "I believe in God and it works for me", Where he's likely to respond is when people state "The sky is green, it always has been and always will be."

Case in point, there is a thread right now on the front page where a person is talking about "Unsticking My Testimony of Christ from This Religion"
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1945612 Not a peep from any atheist telling them they are "wrong" or "attacking" anyone.

Just a thought, re-read ificouldhietokolob's posts without picturing a mustache twirling atheist villain in your mind and instead picture a helpful teacher who's trying to help you shore up your thesis.

Finally Free! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ..without picturing a mustache twirling atheist
> villain in your mind...

Thanks, FF. I appreciate it.

And I haven't had a mustache since I was 25 :)

yeppers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have personally witnessed ... relentless...
> attack[s on] other posters


The above is exactly why I'm anonymous for stuff like this. I don't want to become a lightning rod for "correction"


https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png


Sadly, I see things becoming much more vitriolic around here. Worse even than the bickering about beliefs lately has been the political sniping.

Sadly, I now have vastly different opinions of several prominent posters here. People who's opinions on all thing [anti]Mormon I trusted, and who's posts I enjoyed reading and even looked forward to. People who could get a lot from each other, and help each other, re. the one thing this board is supposed to be about, have now divided themselves into separate camps along lines that aren't even relevant.

I've seen some of them so nasty that I don't even want to read their RfM posts. So, fight these distractionary, irrelevant battles at your own peril, because it may impact your ex-Mo reputation.

yeppers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have personally witnessed Hie relentlessly
> attack other posters resulting in maxing out posts
> to where it had to be continued 2 or 3 times. I
> lurked on this board for several years before my
> first post, so I am well aware of the history with
> Hie.

I'm sorry you can't stand discussion of differences of opinion, and want people who don't agree with you to just shut up.
Your loss. I don't, however, have to just shut up because you want me to. In fact, I'll freely admit that the more you tell me to shut up, the more I'm not going to. I had enough of mormons telling me to shut up and dont't discuss when I was in the church, and religious people of all denominations doing it constantly since then. I really don't care if you hate having your claims and ideas criticized and discussed -- I'm going to do it anyway.

> I knew that Hie wouldn't be able to control
> himself, that's why I put in the atheist section
> to announce that I do understand to atheists that
> using the Bible to disprove Mormonism is a weak
> argument.

I can control myself just fine. I just rather enjoy pointing out the fallacious arguments of people who can't stand having their ideas criticized.

> However, there are many people that do not want to
> be atheist, and this board does not help them very
> much because of all the slamming they get from the
> atheists (and especially nevermo atheists) that
> come here and pick fights.

Commenting on a post isn't picking a fight.

> Some are nothing more than brutes looking for
> vulnerable targets... and there is a lot of
> vulnerable people posting here, which makes this a
> tasty feast for bullies.

So, when you can't refute facts, you call names. Nice.

> Why don't people convert directly to atheism?

Well, to start with, atheism isn't something you "convert to."
You might want to go learn something about that.

And to continue, as I mentioned before, I know many hundreds of people who went from being TBM mormons to atheists, nothing in between. So your claim is false anyway.

> Hie, if you respond to this post, with your usual
> antics, I'm telling you in advance that I will not
> reply.

That's nice. I'm still posting, as I'm free to do.
You're free to not reply. Ain't freedom great?

depends upon what you define as freedom.....

Hie and others, I want to thank you for calling me on my bs, thus *causing* me to *feel bad,* which brought on more *thinking* about how I *let* you *control* my *feelings.*

(that was a mouthful..)

The short of it was, of course, the thinking that I had not done.

I've heard it said that people of strong faith will react as if attacked personally if their god or faith in that god is questioned or ridiculed; in a sense, they self-identify as a personal family member of that god. Since it is a "blameless" and all-powerful patriarchal family member, they will defend [him], as if defending themselves.

For me it was plain old fear. I was afraid of criticizing "my" god, and was afraid of being near people who didn't have that fear, as if the lightning that would surely strike them would burn me were I standing too close. I had been covered in "fear of god."

I no longer consider "god-fearing person" to be either a healthy or morally solid stance, but one that evokes images of a fear-driven, fear-based life.

I'm not afraid of you, Hie, and hope you'll kick my butt from here to Sunday if and when I post bs arguments. That others might not (yet?) want to see your general concern for solid reasoning as a care for humanity is their immediate loss, but I am evidence that it can sink into the most stubborn of minds.

I don't want to argue the differences whether anyone "loves" or "fears" his or her god, because that is arguing his or her feelings (not pointless, but time-consuming, and I have to pay the rent). I appreciate the OP's topic, if not his "understanding" of the.well.known.dreaded.atheist.

I could gush my thanks to the.dreaded.atheists. who frequent this board for pages, but will leave it at that.

one less god Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not afraid of you, Hie, and hope you'll kick
> my butt from here to Sunday if and when I post bs
> arguments. That others might not (yet?) want to
> see your general concern for solid reasoning as a
> care for humanity is their immediate loss, but I
> am evidence that it can sink into the most
> stubborn of minds.

Wonderful post, and I hope you'll do the same with any bs arguments I post. That's how we all learn! :)

You are absolutely right yeppers

But I dont know anyone who really studies the bible anyway.

Most of the time people seem to treat it with disdain or boredom. Then again Im in my early twenties and most people my age just treat things that way.

Sometimes though, people who are committed to the bible to join for other reasons. So point 1 can be overcome in that manner

I don't remember seeing women priests in the Bible, but I do remember seeing women prophets. And yes, there were multiple prophets at a time. Perhaps that is why the Q15 have recently stopped talking about only one prophet and have proclaimed all 15 of them as prophets, seers, and revelators. There is nothing in the Bible about prophets having to hold the priesthood. Not that I saw anyway. In the OT, Priesthood was all about slaughtering hapless animals. How many women would have wanted to do that?

GW bush said once he read the bible every day...one listener said...Finish The Book Already...i dipped a toe into bible study years ago...my take away was how brilliantly it was written to allow thirty thousand different sects to all have the only right interpretation simultaneously...and to provide a fine living to those with charisma and the gift of bs...may i present our guest speaker joe from the burned out district ofnew york...hell lecture us on plygmy and the restored gospel...then our Methodist minister will delineate why joe was rejected for membership...i guess the bottom line...whatever it takes to getcha through the day...if it works for you...more power to ya

1) YOU ARE LOOKING FOR A CHURCH/RELIGION, *BUT* YOU NEVER REALLY STUDIED THE BIBLE AND YOU ARE IGNORANT OF IT'S TEACHINGS.

2) YOU ARE IN A TIME OF CRISIS IN YOUR LIFE, AND YOU NEED A FRIEND AND ARE SEARCHING FOR SOLUTIONS.

3) YOU ARE BORN INTO THE CHURCH, AND THIS IS ALL YOU HAVE EVER KNOWN.

COMMENT: I respectfully suggest you are incorrect with all three of the above.

(1) This suggests that Mormon converts were looking not just for a religion, but for a Biblical Christian religion. Quite the contrary, I doubt first that most such converts were "looking" at all. I would guess that most already were in a religion and were reasonably satisfied. They were lured away because of some non-doctrinal issue with their current church, and they thought Mormonism had something more to offer than mainstream Biblical Christianity. Such people are not Biblical scholars, true, but I doubt a lack of comparison of Mormonism to the Bible was a factor at all. In other words, if they were ignorant of the Bible, so be it; but such ignorance did not lure them anywhere. They were NOT tied to a Biblically based religion in the first place; they were simply confronted with an alternative understanding of Christianity that for them offered more, all the way around.

(2) I think this is likely true to some extent, but again, I think it is overblown. Historically, I do not think that most Mormon converts were in the throws of some crisis. They are simply ordinary people who are trying to find satisfying answers to life's questions, and in particular within a Church that offers a strong religious community.

(3) Being born in the Church is not being "sucked in" it is being, well, "born in." So, I do not think this criteria fits into your assumptions at all, which suggest we are inquiring about converts. The question for us "born ins" is why we stay, not how we were "lured" in.

Finally, in my mind you left off the most important, and simple reason:

The Mormon Church, for all of its falsehoods, is a compelling theology for those looking for religious faith. All of its unique doctrines, for example eternal marriage, modern prophets, modern scripture, coupled with its supernatural history, are appealing to many people. Moreover, the "fellowship of faith" typical of many cults is strong in Mormonism, plus it has the advantage of being viewed as a main-stream religion in American society. Also, although we all know of the problems of the Book of Mormon, for the uninitiated the Book of Mormon reads like scripture. Couple that with a supernatural story of its emergence, you have a compelling influence, at least until reality sets in.

The killing of Mormonism, in my view, is the ready access to, or confrontation with, information; even when one is not particularly looking for it; and the spread of such information on social media. People are susceptible to all of the benefits noted above, but they do not want to be lied to.

I was a good little TBM who would not have even dreamed of looking at anti-Mormon information! It got thrown into my face when when I was looking at other things online. I was horrified and refused to research to verify if it was true. A few weeks later, I was hit with the information again. So I went to LDS apologetic sites, where I received comfort. Sweet little Mormons only did what they had to do! (MMM) Anyway, it was the Indian's fault! So I let that issue go. But then another issue was popped in my face. Again, LDS apologetics reassured me that all was well in Zion. Then another issue! Then another! And so it went for several years. When I finally got serious about doing some honest research, it was all over. I don't know how any TBM survives the Information Age.

Henry Bemis Wrote:
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> The Mormon Church, for all of its falsehoods, is a
> compelling theology for those looking for
> religious faith. All of its unique doctrines, for
> example eternal marriage, modern prophets, modern
> scripture, coupled with its supernatural history,
> are appealing to many people. Moreover, the
> "fellowship of faith" typical of many cults is
> strong in Mormonism, plus it has the advantage of
> being viewed as a main-stream religion in American
> society. Also, although we all know of the
> problems of the Book of Mormon, for the
> uninitiated the Book of Mormon reads like
> scripture. Couple that with a supernatural story
> of its emergence, you have a compelling influence,
> at least until reality sets in.

Yah, and here is the essence of the compelling theology of MORmONISM! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZAourInlHY


"My church is better than your church!!!" because MORmONS have more priestDUD authority that is EXCLUSIVE, MORE scriptures, more prophets and MORE apostles especially including the best current latter day ones, more stories of Jesus like the one where Jesus comes to America, and more whatever else other superlative that Joe Smith could come up with and throw in as SMith concocted his BS mockery of Christianity, intended to one up Christianity for those dumb enough to buy into it. and those non sense MORmON superlatives work for people who are NOT really thinking and /or do not have any foundation in religion or logic. Ultimately, MORmONISM is a social club chocked with unfounded superficial superlatives that really appeal to people who are A. SHALLOW B.DESPERATE for any kind of approval at any cost. C. Enduringly STUPID to keep enduring the idiocy and high cost of MORmONISM as imposed on them by predatory MORmON leaders!

MORmONISM is a crappy expensive parasitic social club ( that brings out the worst in people so contrary to what MORmONISM claims that they do to people) posing as an divinely directed institution formed around a supposed divinely provided doctrinal juggernaut. It is NOT a doctrinal juggernaut because, just as you noted, its doctrinal is loaded with gaping holes, so its doctrine could only appeal to MORONS which is precisely why I roundly refer to them as MORmONS!!!!

> the killing of Mormonism, in my view, is the ready
> access to, or confrontation with, information;
> even when one is not particularly looking for it;
> and the spread of such information on social
> media. People are susceptible to all of the
> benefits noted above, but they do not want to be
> lied to.

and before the internet, a person merely had to listen to MORmON leaders long enough to realize that they were LYING just as they constantly do and then remain true to that realization -which is a huge impossible undertaking for most MORmONS who want to remain in their cozy MORmON social club that they are so used to. My problem /salvation is that I believed the MORmONS when they said that they truth mattered, and I never forgave them when I heard them LIE.

Henry Bemis wrote -

"The Mormon Church, for all of its falsehoods, is a compelling theology for those looking for religious faith. All of its unique doctrines, for example eternal marriage, modern prophets, modern scripture, coupled with its supernatural history, are appealing to many people. Moreover, the "fellowship of faith" typical of many cults is strong in Mormonism, plus it has the advantage of being viewed as a main-stream religion in American society. Also, although we all know of the problems of the Book of Mormon, for the uninitiated the Book of Mormon reads like scripture. Couple that with a supernatural story of its emergence, you have a compelling influence, at least until reality sets in."

Very true Henry. Way back in the 1960's when I converted at the age of 21, I believed that I had at long last found a church with all the answers. At the time I was very conversant with the Bible and every contradiction I brought up was refuted with Mormon "logic". Add a couple of very good looking, persuasive elders with fascinating American accents to the equation and of course it all had to be "true." Thank goodness reality did eventually set in.

It's a compilation of like minded bible "scholars" sorting through myths and stories compiled thousands of years ago focused on what is accepted as a protestant bible.

Evangelicals are so simple minded they have no clue what the original text dealt with and they try to force the text to fit their beliefs, no different from any other religion based on myth.

I met all three of these requirements when I returned to the mormon corporation after a 15 year absence. If the internet had been up and running, I highly doubt I would have made that mistake.

Hopefully people in the position I was in will go online and do a bit of reading and research before they get sucked back in.

yeppers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I realized how people get sucked into this church.
>
>
> There are more ways than this, but this is the top
> three.
>
> (This also applies to Jehovah Witnesses)
>
> 1) YOU ARE LOOKING FOR A CHURCH/RELIGION, *BUT*
> YOU NEVER REALLY STUDIED THE BIBLE AND YOU ARE
> IGNORANT OF IT'S TEACHINGS.
>
> 2) YOU ARE IN A TIME OF CRISIS IN YOUR LIFE, AND
> YOU NEED A FRIEND AND ARE SEARCHING FOR
> SOLUTIONS.
>
> 3) YOU ARE BORN INTO THE CHURCH, AND THIS IS ALL
> YOU HAVE EVER KNOWN.

How about a person is a teen age local yocal that suddenly comes into the heat of puberty and some local MORmON girl smiles at them, they catch "THE" scent of MORmON "womanhood" and get irretrievably hooked. Now the *only* thing that the trappee has to do to finally get some of the MORmON nookee that they are so wildly lusting after is to sell their soul to THE (MORmON) church. It is a life long, long term arrangement that turns pimps green with envy. From the MORmON insider perspective It is whoring out the MORmON young woman for the missionary effort. Form the outsider victim perspective it is being drug into THE (MORmON) church by their penis. It worked to capture my MORmON male parent, From there the MORmON religion very suck Cess fully transformed him into a world class MORmON @$$ hole.

this is what Joe Rogan says about people who are vulnerable to the (SHABBY) wiles of MORmONISM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rOPRdjrlJE

I am gonna say I was a #2

first I was in basic training and that is stressful, if we didn't go to church we were cleaning so EVERYONE went to church!!

Three years before that, my brother killed himself, I was Evangelical christian, and at the time the told me he was going to hell indirectly. I was very depressed, and was told suicide meant hell. They were referring to me but also indirectly to my brother. I stopped attending at that point. That is not taught anymore FYI



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2017 03:00AM by seamaiden.

I have a feeling they changed that to "suicides don't know their own minds, are not in control of actions due to illness" after marie osmond's adopted son committed suicide some years back. I can remember my ex sis-in-law talking about the suicide and mormon beliefs then that he would go to hell, and then a few years later my parents come out with the current church view that 'suicidal folks are mentally ill and not in their right mind so not accountable for their suicide' crap that had never been taught when I was at church.

Suicide had until then been considered self-murder and since your blood had already been spilled, one could not atone for the life taken with one's own blood, they way murder should be atoned for according to previous doctrine; with the spilling one's own blood. That was what I had been taught, and now it has been changed so (in my opinion) someone high profile and rich does not leave the faith and take their tithing and other contributions with them.

Continuing 'revelation' or clarification of 'policy' is a handy thing for a religion to have to keep hold of it's membership and their tithing and other contributions.

I mean if that is what is taught that is what is taught, but to say it to me causally like it wasn't a punch in the gut every time I heard it was ignorant at best. The real sin of suicide is what it does to the loved ones left behind, you have no idea what that did to me and 16 years old!! I mean I'm obviously depressed, so keep piling it on, It is NOT helping!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2017 08:03PM by seamaiden.

I have not kept a running count of the number of people I know who have joined Mormonism because of friendship and/or "loveship", but I, too, think this is one of the prime reasons for joining the church or just becoming active in Mormonism.

Among my friends and memory, the dances, ward picnics, basketball, volleyball and baseball games, carnivals and relief society bazaars were social church events that brought people into the realm of the church, especially if church attendance was required in order to be eligible to participate as it was with sporting events.

In my own case it was friends who brought me to the vicinity of Mormonism. I went to the activities with them and even attended the boring meetings because they "had", by demands from their parents, to attend meetings. This was in my pre-teens and teenage years and my friends who lived close to me were Mormons. Bikes and skates were our form of transportation, we were mostly all poor as church mice, so the social activities of Mormonism worked because they were located close and they were FREE.

It's usually your #3. You grow up thinking you're normal and everyone else is weird.

But of the conversions I've seen personally, probably 80% of them have been converting for boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse.

How's it possible for everyone on a sphere to see the same object at the same time without satellites? I'm assuming Jesus would not consult the media.

Some today join the LDS church to authentically claim Nephi's legal defence.

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=43365798&nid=148&title=jail-report-man-holds-estranged-wife-against-her-will-threatens-to-kill-children