Interesting link. Don't have time to read it all now, but saved to read for later.

Smart young people.

I'm going to have to agree with Respondent #1208:

The church leadership doesn't
match the level of honesty they
preach about in Church manuals.
I have no faith or trust in them
anymore, and for all they have
done to me and my relationship
with my wife, I consider them
my enemy.”
RESPONDENT #1208, ANONYMOUS MALE

-edzachery

This.

+100

By Thomas S. Monson exceeding everyone with his level of honesty, forthrightness, and transparency about Church history, doctrines, statistics, finances, and everything this guy is going to have to eat his words. It'll show that the church leadership genuinely does match and even exceed the level of honesty we see preached about in Church manuals. Then the honest people can have faith and trust in the leadership as long as the leaders continue to meet and exceed expectations of being a "true Church" :)

Now where is that link on lds.org to Monson exceeding expectations? I can't seem to find it so I'm a bit embarrassed. I'll have to go ask the Bishop & Stake President for the link; or contact Church HQ to get it :) Once I have it then I'll report it here :)

I would really like to see these Honest TBM posts cross-posted to sites like Freedom Forum or the LDS sub on the "R" forum. I wonder if the regulars there would understand; would they be able to see the mockery, or hail it as a model of right and proper thinking?

Well of course they would have to hail the beautiful "true Church because of its super strong honesty, transparency, and forthrightness nature" principle as being a model of right and proper thinking. Only an anti-Mormon would dare suggest that the Church could be anything but completely honest on everything. And being completely honest is so easy. Just tell the truth on everything :)

Oh I haven't been able to get the link. But I think I got it figured out. The link was probably sent to me but I'm not worthy enough to be able to read it :( Oh what a wretched person I am as now all these RfMers are left in the dark on how awesome Monson is (i.e. that link proving he is super-transparent on everything). If only I would scrub the Lord's toilets more efficiently with great gladness then maybe I could be more worthy. Or maybe its because of my slothfulness on a few thousand other important commandments I need to strictly follow each day. Whatever it may be I can be sure that if I don't commit some super grievous sin (such as doubting the Brethren - yikes how evil) then maybe the Lord will forgive me. But oh boy is Judgment Day going to be a tough one as I'm sure the Lord has a huge rap sheet built up on me. He's so loving :)

...again after the progressives!! Um, no and stuff! I have worked with them all though this last campaign cycle.. they aren't going to buy it. Try though, and watch how fast they bring you down. Church views of women, Of gay rights ect ect

Its just another nail in the coffin



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2017 10:56PM by seamaiden.

Well said edzachery....

Your buddy
The Gman

Loved this slide saying that the main causes is access to information not "correlated" by the church. Page 12

1.Internet-based access to
uncorrelated information
(e.g., Google)

2. Constant availability of
uncorrelated information
via mobile devices

3. Member exposure to
uncorrelated information
via traditional and social
media

4. Ability to discuss and
debate alternate points-ofview
with like-minded
people in social media

Two words: The internet.

"You keep on using that word, uncorrelated. I do not think it means what you think it means."

That's inconceivable!

No more un-correlating, and I mean it! (Does anybody want a peanut?)

Some interesting tidbits:

They counted folks who said they attend mormon church "annually" (once a year) or "quarterly" (once every three months) as "active." I wouldn't.

Being university folks, they should know the difference between "effected" and "affected" (pg. 10, pg. 11, and more), but they don't :)

For folks who just went after mormon leaks for copyright violation, they don't seem to have a problem using other peoples' copyrighted/trademarked logos without permission (google, facebook, etc.). Oops.

They clearly used a data scraper to pull "unique visit" info from "that other forum" that starts with an "r". Clever boys.

Their conclusion is typical "business" strategy, and clearly nothing to do with god, religion, or truth:

"Our challenge is less about how well we answer tough questions and more about how we treat questioning, progressive, and secular Mormons."

No, guys, your challenge is that your claims are a pack of lies. Until you can change THAT, no amount of treating questioning mormons well is going to stem the flow of people leaving.

"Our challenge is less about how well we answer tough questions and more about how we treat questioning, progressive, and secular Mormons."

Yea, because their data says that about half of doubters stay, and staying active = membership numbers and $$ for the church. And because there are no 'answers' to tough questions because the church is a lie and that's the only answer!

Basically, be nice and they'll stay for the community, even if they don't believe - a.k.a damage control.....

I smell what you stepped in!! It won't work though, you know how many Americans at least this election woke up!! Its not gonna happen, but I hope they try, cause LMAO

So, I finally got around to reading it. From what I've read on these boards, it sounds like they may have similar problems that other churches are having.

I'd equate it more like the Southern Baptists (my religion) where we aren't really losing a lot of people, but we aren't really gaining new members either. As we lose a lot, we are also having that amount replaced by births and such.

Hence, unlike many religions that are losing membership drastically, we are staying about the same. What I hear about the LDS church is that they are in a similar state.

So, in some ways, this is not about losing membership, but losing enough members (currently) that they are no longer growing at the rate they were accustomed to in years past.

Looking at the study, I drew a slightly different conclusion then they did at the beginning. It appears that most of those who are questioning are those who are highly educated. The noted thing is that, even though highly educated, they distribution levels of income is about equally distributed. In essence, it might mean that even though highly educated, on average, they are making less than average in relation to their education.

Conjecture...I've heard that Utah and other areas pay less on average than other parts of the nation. It may be that overall, Mormons in general who live in those areas make less than those with similar backgrounds in other areas of the US.

The next thing, it appeared to be a powerpoint or slide show. There were a few slides that I could guess at what might go with it, but didn't really know.

It would seem that all the looked at were the effects of social media on those who are leaving the church. It seemed that was what was mentioned the most in the surveys they conducted, and thus focused on that, rather than going deeper into other areas.

I did not realize it, but I think the five points they make about those leaving the church may be interconnected. If someone finds information about the church that they did not know about, they then have no where to ask about it as it apparently will lead to ostracization (or they fear it will) at the church they attend.

That's a pretty bad thing in some ways. People who have questions need a place and an area to ask it. 18-20 year old teens probably are not going to have those answers, and they may actually end up having those same questions. Shunning people who ask questions, or worse, asking them NOT TO ASK those questions at their church as those questions are disruptive, will leave people to their own devices and require them to do their own research.

I've looked online, and the LDS church has a paucity of resources to actually check up information. It would seem (at least from what I've seen thus far) that most information comes from other sites or resources (such as this one) instead of anything the LDS church puts out. That is bound to influence people as well.

If I were a business that were looking at that study, such as a corporation, and were looking for what we may be doing wrong, I think I might actually agree with the findings.

People need to be able to ask their questions and not be fearful of ostracization, isolation, or other backlashes simply for asking questions at their church.

I'd add one other item however, that the corporation would need to have other outlets of information and outreach as well. They need to have a visible presence in social media, more than a simple facebook page, they need forums, google groups, twitter followings with individuals (not just a church or apostle twitter) that people can identify with, and other such things.

Just my thoughts on the posted study there and approaching it as if I were not the LDS church, but any corporation with a brand that seemed to be stagnating.

The high education with lower income average could also point to highly educated stay at home/work from home moms.

they finally get it that the main reason people are dropping out like flies is because of the pre-programed way questioners are treated.

All those years of inoculating us against leaving (desire to sin, led astray, etc) are backfiring and they now realise this is not a good way to have members form an opinion of another person.

It may or may not good them any good, but perhaps it will save some kids from being ostracised by their families when they question current 'doctrine' or 'history'.

They still completely miss the mark about the 'anti-mormon lies' they are now revealing as 'truths' in their gospel topics essays: correlated information is still very damaging.

Yeah I literally experienced exactly this . My spouse knew my doubts and fears. She was angry with me and did NOT want to talk about it. So I first wrote it all down in a huge document so I could try to make more sense of it. My wife HATED me for having this experience. I asked to talk to the bishop and he told me no. A lot of this started because the temple ceremony had changed since I had gone on a mission. He said I had to talk to the temple president. At that point I had nothing left and no-one to go to. It was easier to go to the internet to find like-minded people than to get my bishop to answer questions. He was too busy running his multiple investment businesses apparently.

Oh well, now my wife and I are both out. lol

Credibility in such a presentation is lost on me when the author uses poor English, such as "five key learnings," "effected members," "members in leadership roles effected." I do generally agree with it, though, and I'm happy people are becoming aware of what is happening. And I am proud to be a part of the questioning, secular, and progressive (ex-) Mormons. His/her last statement is very good. I'm not sure if I agree, but it may well be true.

"Uncorrelated information" equals....facts and truth. When I found out the hidden facts and truth, you bet I was angry and I still am smoldering. As for "LDS faith crisis", the word "crisis" applies to the Q15 or any other GA, not to me. When people are leaving, they are taking their money with them,and it's just not tithing: there are the church's magazine subscriptions, scouting money, YW's camp money,money coming out of one's pockets for projects,and the list goes on.

I am proud that I might be instrumental in creating more fallout for them by occasionally sharing some of the uncorrelated history on this and on other discussion boards for those questioning lurkers.

I consider it payback for all the dishonesty presented in their correlated teachings as well as the damage caused by their divisive influence.

I don't think people are leaving the church just because they discover that the church hasn't been truthful. At least I didn't. For me it was a combination of discovering that I was being lied to by the church as well as realizing that the church offered me nothing. My membership in the church was all about what I gave to the church and never the other way around.

At one time, I thought the church offered me the truth. But when I realized that wasn't the case, I saw myself belonging to an organization that only cared about my contributions to it. I was in a one-sided relationship with an organization that wanted me to clean its chapels and donate significant amounts of time and money and what did I get in return? Nothing. I wasn't spiritually fed there and its programs had no value to me.

I honestly think that I may have stayed in the church if I could have come up with a reason to stay, something that would have benefited me. The only reason that most people stay once they learn the truth is because they fear losing their marriage, family or friends. They're not really benefiting from their church membership, they're just being held hostage.

If the church really wants to keep people it needs to forget about trying to answer tough questions. It can't. The questions have already been answered more thoroughly and with no spin by other sources. The LDS church needs to come to the realization that it would be more successful if it offered its member something besides meetings, fear and work.

Don't have time to read it now, but did notice their "Faith Crisis Defined":

"A state of intense emotional distress resulting from the
discovery of “uncorrelated” Church history facts that do not
align with the traditional LDS narrative."

Do you agree with their definition?

It would be *one* response, but "anger", "cognitive dissonance", "further research" are all things that result from the same discovery...

Yes I would consider that (the below definition*) accurate for the first few discoveries. After that, the more you discover, the angrier you become. For me the final straw was the church (Hinckley) paying tithing money** for Mark Hofmann's forgeries - the salamander letter, etc. If he was truly a profit he never would have done it - he would have received revelation that it was a hoax! But between the cognitive dissonance, the guilt, suggestion that it is just another thing Satan is using to try my faith LOL (BARFFFF!!!) That was my final point of anger and I gave up.

*"A state of intense emotional distress resulting from the
discovery of “uncorrelated” Church history facts that do not
align with the traditional LDS narrative."

**of course it was with tithing money - as all of the church's money originates from the tithe

The bottom line, the LDS church, BOM, Joseph Smith was/is a fraud. You can only say 2+2 = 5 for so long. People are realizing that the cornerstone of the LDS church is complete BS. Why stay in a lie.

Once again the Mormon answer to everything is to put up a better front or enhance their facade:

"Our challenge is less about how well we answer tough questions and more about how we treat questioning, progressive, and secular Mormons."



You would think that having a prophet who speaks to God, haha, that the Mormons would realize their conclusion on how to handle this situation is a clear case of treating the symptoms rather than treating the illness.

Dear Mormon Church, you need a colon cleanse.

Yes, but there is no cure for the illness, so all they can do is keep massaging the symptoms

"Uncorrelated" needs to be defined. eg factual data etc.

I am not a grammar expert but have the words affect and effect been used correctly?

At the risk of sounding like I wasn't listening,

what exactly is correlation w/re to TSCC ?

That's something I missed.

Correlation was a program that really got going in the 1960s although the idea was much older. The purpose was to make sure that the entire church was on the same page, so to speak. It made sure that every ward was giving the same lessons (and at the same time trying to eliminate talking about the "deep doctrines" that some liked to talk about) so that every member in the world got the same orthodox teachings. It also standardized the structure and operations of each ward/branch so that every unit did things the same way.

The result was that TSCC became the McDonalds of religion - it doesn't matter which one you attend, it will be the same.

here is a (Mormon friendly) link that talks more about it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priesthood_Correlation_Program

Wow, just wow!! Nice to see at least SOME level of honestly coming from a church related source.

LOVE the quote edzachery!!! Spot ON!!!!

Too many are discovering that the great gawd worshipped here is money..and nobodys buying....id guess more attention and devotion is paid every day to this gawd than the one gathering dust in tired old books...and never has there been a time when people are more willing to call bullshit on jack and his magic beans and give the middle finger to the giant at the top of the bean pole....id sure like an AMA with old boyd k and L Tom now theyve had a few months to figure things out at mission control

The church can do all the research it wants, all the re-messaging, new program development, etc. --but a lie is a lie. Nothing will change the fact that the church is a hoax.

I really would like a definition if 'uncorrelated' as well. I want to know how the church inc. defines that. Come on church attorneys....!

Resistance is futile.

You will be correlated.

cor·re·late
verb
past tense: correlated; past participle: correlated
ˈkôrəˌlāt/
have a mutual relationship or connection, in which one thing affects or depends on another.
"the study found that success in the educational system correlates highly with class"
synonyms: correspond to/with, match, parallel, agree with, tally with, tie in with, be consistent with, be compatible with, be consonant with, coordinate with, dovetail (with), relate to, conform to; informalsquare with, jibe with
"postal codes correlate with geographic location"


I believe the church is using the term to mean that any information regarding the church must "correspond to/with, match, parallel, agree with, tally with, tie in with, be consistent with, be compatible with, be consonant with, coordinate with, dovetail (with), relate to, conform to; informalsquare with, jibe with the assumption that the church is "true." Any information that doesn't jibe with the assumption that the church is good, of God, Joe was holy, etc. is clearly uncorrelated.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2017 03:13PM by Devoted Exmo.

correlated = 1984

LDSink is sinking, and wants to blame the members/ once-members/ xxx-mormons/ 'formons' for their continual problems of not being able to control the narrative/ data/ facts/ correlation/ story/ truth/ Christianity.

One of Joseph's Myths problems was calling it a Christian church in the first, or second, place. (1) The Church of The LDS. (2) The Church of Jesus Christ. (3) TCoJC(JS)oLDS.

PROBLEM # 1: if you can't at least act Christ like, why keep Him in the name and END THE PRAYERS in His name?

LDSBYU is trying to plug holes in its sinking ship with gum chewed by members but doesn't have enough gum with all the followers leaving as they are today and wants to pound it's chest while commanding the remaining members to chew more fat/ gum/ bs.

Self righteous = calling the kettle black. Persecution complex = always blaming the truth tellers/ formons. Mormonites couldn't find the truth is it was placed before them by their almighty "leaders", or by concerned once-members w/o now finally have the truth. The problem with those who think they have found the truth is they stop looking.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2017 10:37PM by readwrite.

This stopped me in my tracks: "...promote understanding and inclusion for questioning, progressive, and secular Mormons." It's the first time I've ever seen anything like this coming from an organization that's even a tiny bit connected with the Morg. Actually quite stunning.

I am appalled at how poorly this presentation is written, substantiated, and presented.

Surely this does not represent the BYU administration or its faculty.

To my "ear" this reads like it was constructed by an average student in an undergraduate sociology class.

Like Floridian, it seems rather poorly executed, not "official", well researched, or professional at all.

Patch job. Par for the (goofy golf) course in mormondumb these days.