Several years ago I recall hearing of an experiment that was to be conducted to determine whether or not patients having NDE's could report back objective information from their experiences. As part of the study, hospital rooms where NDE's are most likely to occur would be fitted with pictures that could only be seen from near the ceiling, as many NDE patients report that they have "floated" above their "dead" bodies, viewing the scene from overhead. It seemed like an intriguing way to experimentally determine if something paranormal might be going on in these cases.

Here is a news report from a few years ago about the experiment:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1057506/Scientists-uncover-truth-body-experiences.html


Anyway, I hadn't thought about this for a long time, but recent RfM posts sparked my memory. I did some searching and this link is apparently to the results of the study (it looks like it requires registration and/or a fee to access its entirety):

http://www.resuscitationjournal.com/article/S0300-9572(14)00739-4/abstract?cc=y=


Wikipedia does have some information about it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Parnia#AWAreness_during_REsuscitation_.28AWARE.29_study


Does anybody have any more information on this or other similar studies, and what do you think about them?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2017 12:35AM by lurking in.

I can't help with any evidence on NDEs.

However, one 'atheist' I knew had an out of body experience in the hospital when her vitals went to 0 because of a drug reaction. She said as she was floating out of her body she clearly heard the doctor and nurse talking about a Hawaiian vacation they recently took. She tried to get their attention with her hand which then came out of her body and vocally but could not.

Last I knew she was interested in finding a 'religion' that teaches life after death!

The problem is that an experience like the one you cite could have been nothing more than someone who *thought* they were outside their body but actually just in a semi-conscious state (and perhaps "under the influence" of anesthesia) who did indeed hear a conversation going on in the hospital room while they were in that condition. These experiments are meant to eliminate that possibility: if a patient can actually see and identify an image only visible from above, that fact would go a long way to demonstrate a legitimate out-of-body experience.

I agree.

NDEs were my jumping off point into my studies of the 'paranormal' because of the many publicized experiences. However, since I have never had one I will not try to claim any are accurate and not influenced by the drugs the people were on.

However, only 2 people near to me have had one. One of my Uncles had one where he reported too many totally 'inaccurate/Mormon' items based on my personal experiences. Not even relatives living near him at the time recall this NDE story so maybe my Mom was a little confused when she told it.

However, based on what one author quoted were the most 'consistently reported' events ---- those were consistent with my experiences. I don't specifically recall the 'floating out of the body and going up to the ceiling and hanging around' was one of those consistent events.

I would hope all hospitals would try to have some 'objective test' like that or try to get more information on any claimed/potential NDEs.

one's life flash before one's eyes.

NDSplat!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2017 01:55PM by steve benson.

“One attempt to gather objective evidence [about NDEs], rather than the usual anecdotal, after-the-fact accounts, has been initiated by the British psychiatrist, Peter Fenwick . . . . . He has had messages placed on ledges, above eye level, in the operating theaters of the hospital where he works. If a surgical patient should have an NDE/OBE, then his or her free-floating mind should be able to read the otherwise inaccessible message and recall it upon re-awakening.

"As yet, no one has been able to provide this kind of objective evidence, which would admittedly create serious problems for the materialist view of mind.

“In the absence of such strong proof, the spiritually-inclined must fall back on the next best thing: those cases where it seems highly unlikely that the revived person could have known certain things unless his or her fully-conscious spiritual self had been observing from outside the body."

"In light of lack of compelling evidence for NDEs and OBEs allegedly representing real experiences occurring outside the realm of the physical body and/or brain, the authors conclude with this cautionary reminder from Demosthenes, offered some two millennia ago:

"'Nothing is easier than self-deceit, for what each man wishes, that he also believes to be true.'"

(Hayden Ebbern, Sean Mulligan and Barry L. Beverstein "Maria's Near-Death Experience: Waiting for the Other Shoe to Drop," under the subhead, "Maria's NDE," pp. 4-11, original emphasis, reprinted in "Skeptical Inquirer," Vol. 20, No. 4, July/August 1996)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2017 12:16AM by steve benson.

Thanks! This Peter Fenwick's experiment may actually be the original one that got my attention several years ago.

it loses the ability to read signs. This is because seeking after signs is of the devil--and who would want their spirit to come back into their body if it was now of the devil? Jesus would make you run off a cliff, just like he did those devil-possessed pigs.

That would be a RDE--a Real Death Experience.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2017 12:55PM by steve benson.

Come in, floating spirit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2017 01:04PM by steve benson.

If I somehow had the opportunity to live my life over again I think I would dedicate it to studying the human mind.

I'm fascinated by the mind--by consciousness, by dreams, by the processes of memory and perception and emotion, by how hormones and other chemicals do everything from alter our moods to allow us to store information.

I believe that the explanation for near-death experiences lies within the human mind itself. We've only begun to scratch the surface of knowing what happens inside our noggins. I recently read Oliver Sach's "The Man Who Mistook His Wife For A Hat" and was blown away by the complexity of human thought, which neurological damage can reveal.

The man in the title of Sachs' book, by the way, actually did mistake his wife for a hat. Sachs wasn't speaking metaphorically. Think about that for a moment: if a man could see his wife, think she was a hat, and actually try to put her on his head, couldn't "near-death experience" also be a mere product of the mind?

getbusylivin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm fascinated by the mind--by consciousness, by
> dreams, by the processes of memory and perception
> and emotion, by how hormones and other chemicals
> do everything from alter our moods to allow us to
> store information.
>
> I believe that the explanation for near-death
> experiences lies within the human mind itself.
> We've only begun to scratch the surface of knowing
> what happens inside our noggins.

Yes, the great mystery of our consciousness--from everything science has taught us so far--will be revealed within our brains. No indication it's to be found in the "ether."

Let's say they did the experiment, and it succeeded.

Out of 100 near death examples, all 100 were able to describe the pictures and conversations in detail.

It still would be regarded as "quackery", and somehow the physicians cheated.

You will really never know unless it happens to you personally.

One day... it will... it will happen to all of us, and the debate will be ended.

Wait, don't TBMs use that same logic?

What is the control group?

How do you weed through the worldview of each person?

Is there a way of determining if a person was really dead and then wasn't dead?



The details that someone like me would require to make it an objective study also make an objective study impossible. I and I would guess others have already dismissed the idea of a rigorous scientific study for a very simple reason.

Death is permanent, anything that can be related by the person experiencing it wasn't caused by death.

Not to mention a sample size of 100 people is not nearly enough to qualify for a statistically valid study. And the control group is absolutely not optional in experiments, so until there's a way to make a control group for this sort of thing, NDEs are shelved into the woo category. Testimonials are not evidence no matter how much the woo crowd want them to be.

And nobody has read the signs because they weren't out of body in the first place floating above the operating table and floating above the signs. If they had been, they would have read the signs.

What part of "duh" don't you understand?

And you certainly don't win the argument by solemnly testifying that someday everybody will buy into this stupid myth.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2017 01:12PM by steve benson.

yeppers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let's say they did the experiment, and it
> succeeded.
> Out of 100 near death examples, all 100 were able
> to describe the pictures and conversations in
> detail.
> It still would be regarded as "quackery", and
> somehow the physicians cheated.

Science isn't like religion, which denies demonstrable facts.
If there is compelling, verifiable evidence for something, it's accepted. Your comment above demonstrates ignorance of science.

> You will really never know unless it happens to
> you personally.

If it "happens to your personally," you don't "know" anything other than that you experienced SOMETHING. You don't "know" that you were outside your body. The "out of body" feeling can be INDUCED in people, demonstrating that you don't actually have to be "outside your body" to FEEL LIKE you're outside your body.

> One day... it will... it will happen to all of us,
> and the debate will be ended.

And your evidence that "one day...it will...happen to all of us" would be...?

Oh, right, you have 'faith' that it will.
Which means you have no evidence whatsoever.

Faith is believing something you know ain't true.

... that a skeptical reaction would come first from many scientists and scientifically literate people. However, if even ONE positive result turned up in these experiments (which hasn't occurred yet) it would become huge news and many researches would shift to studying this possible phenomenon. What would then happen is that either the results of the positive experiment would be duplicated or they wouldn't. Also, tighter and tighter controls would be used to make sure fraud wasn't an issue.

In the face of mounting scientific evidence (if it indeed were forthcoming), people could shout "CONSPIRACY!" for only so long. Eventually skeptics would have to come around and accept the inevitable conclusions. It would be fascinating to be a part of and would revolutionize scientific views on consciousness and the brain. But so far, believers in the "out-of-body" explanation for NDE's have produced nothing very convincing of a scientific nature that skeptics have any trouble answering.

[Edited for clarity]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2017 04:05AM by lurking in.

lurking in Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... that a skeptical reaction would come first
> from many scientists and scientifically literate
> people. However, if even ONE positive result
> turned up in these experiments (which hasn't
> occurred yet) it would become huge news and many
> researches would shift to studying this possible
> phenomenon. What would then happen is that either
> the results of the positive experiment would be
> duplicated or they wouldn't. Also, tighter and
> tighter controls would be used to make sure fraud
> wasn't an issue.

Exactly.
The "you wouldn't accept it even if it did happen" crowd misses that entirely.
They also miss that it hasn't happened. Ever.