slskipper on another post wrote the below statement. I find this a fascinating subject.

"According to Carl Jung/Joseph Campbell, all these items are themselves symbols and shadows of a much deeper primal imperative, which is the innate desire in all of us to achieve a transcendent awareness typified by the mystical experience. All these rituals and myths are the outward manifestations of this part of us that for various reasons tends to get buried under all the layers of consciousness that are necessary for survival- like the need to put food on the table- and at the same time distracting from what our souls desperately crave. According to this school of thought the mystical experience is the ultimate example of a rebirth into a new life."

Here are my thoughts on this subject:

As humans be create these archetypal characters, some "real" people resemble these patterned characters. Whenever we read a book or watch a movie we are watching these same patterned characters: the hero, the villain, the joker etc. Marvell Universe has created a pantheon of Demigods. We also all have an expectation on how the story should end, good conquering evil or justice prevailing. But why do such stories resonant with us?

I think we are looking for the proper balance to be struck as a human universal. If there is a "6th sense" humans have as far as I can tell its a sense of balance both literally and figuratively. When something seems off or not inline with the effect we want to know why. When we make sense of the situation a sense of balance is achieved. The input = the output or the cause(s) equals the effect. If this tacit sense of balance isn't understood we feel uneasy.

It really doesn't matter how deep you go into reality balance and symmetry is fundamental such as in Gauge symmetry. Going up by levels of abstraction into chemistry and biology balance is struck. Same with ecosystems found in nature. There is a balance to everything and even human societies. Since we are human we anthropomorphize balance and symmetry then put it to story as characters. The righteous king vs. the evil tyrant which promotes balance and justice vs. oppression. When empires fail in history societal symmetry is skewed too far. The wellbeing of our relationships are a balancing act.

Maybe this "mystical experience" improve one's sense of balance and symmetry while at the same time dissolving dogma thus freeing one's mind?

studies have been done that show babies as young as 6 months discriminate against toys (puppets) and adults who act unfairly. They prefer the toys, puppets or adults who behave nicely and more importantly - fairly or 'justly'.

This display of what appears to be a sense of justice is, apparently, innate in western humans but can be overcome by the effects of nurture.

I am not aware of studies done on babies from lesser developed nations and I do not believe any assumptions have been made regarding non-western babies and their sense of justice and fairness (equality), so there is no solid evidence of whether this is universal among humans, or merely cultural among western society. I'd wager it is universal because there are plenty of studies which demonstrated altruistic behaviours in animals.

The big question is: why are altruistic traits demonstrated in nature when it is not conducive to the evolutionary 'survival of the fittest'? Discovering the answer to this may take us closer to the answer to the question why do humans babies (and most adults) value fairness and justice when it is not required for the evolution or specialisation of species?

Thank you anonuk for the insightful post about babies and altruism.

You wrote:

"The big question is: why are altruistic traits demonstrated in nature when it is not conducive to the evolutionary 'survival of the fittest'? Discovering the answer to this may take us closer to the answer to the question why do humans babies (and most adults) value fairness and justice when it is not required for the evolution or specialisation of species?"

I think the answer to this can be found in the "Group Selection" theory of evolution. It explains altruism which exists in groups, and how evolution simply as "survival of the fittest" of the individual is lacking. A self leveling mechanism between selfishness and group wellbeing.

In their book, *Unto Others: The Evolution and Psychology of Unselfish Behavior* Elliot Sober and David Sloan Wilson distinguish between evolutionary altruism and psychological altruism. The former case might be explained to some extent by group selection, but the later version of altruism is much more difficult and complex, because it involves altruistic *motives* (i.e. mental states) as proximate mechanisms for altruistic behavior. That seems to be an individual thing, separated from the standard evolutionary mechanisms like group selection. But, of course, this is controversial.

thinking Wrote:
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> ...the innate desire in all of us to achieve a transcendent
> awareness typified by the mystical experience.

No, not all of us.

As humans [w]e create these archetypal characters, some "real" people resemble these patterned characters. Whenever we read a book or watch a movie we are watching these same patterned characters: the hero, the villain, the joker etc. Marvell Universe has created a pantheon of Demigods. We also all have an expectation on how the story should end, good conquering evil or justice prevailing. But why do such stories resonant with us?

COMMENT: I don't see this. Although movies and stories may have stereotypical elements, humans themselves are most often portrayed as diverse. Most movies are not simplistic characterizations of hero-villain, good-evil, etc., and when they are, they are criticized as such, not lauded. In fact, it seems to me that the more complex the storyline, and characterizations involved, in general the more interesting the story or movie, and the more we think it mirrors reality.
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I think we are looking for the proper balance to be struck as a human universal. If there is a "6th sense" humans have as far as I can tell its a sense of balance both literally and figuratively. When something seems off or not inline with the effect we want to know why. When we make sense of the situation a sense of balance is achieved. The input = the output or the cause(s) equals the effect. If this tacit sense of balance isn't understood we feel uneasy.

COMMENT: Although certainly nature tends to evolve to equilibrium (balance), and we all want to feel psychologically balanced, or at peace, it is a mistake to apply this too broadly to human psychology and the social sciences. For example, in perhaps the most important of human interests, e.g. encompassing personal well-being, we seem to be more than happy with imbalance; for example, the discrepancies in wealth, income, education, health care, etc. don't seem to bother us much.
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It really doesn't matter how deep you go into reality balance and symmetry is fundamental such as in Gauge symmetry. Going up by levels of abstraction into chemistry and biology balance is struck. Same with ecosystems found in nature.

COMMENTS: Well, in the physical world symmetry *breaking* is the natural order, not symmetry preserving. And this extends all the way up the ladder to complex systems that are asymmetrical, and far removed from equilibrium, however functionally balanced. Ecosystems are ecologically balanced, but only within a context of multiple participating complex natural systems that are individually highly unstable and to survive must fluctuate with the environment. (Adaptation)
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There is a balance to everything and even human societies. Since we are human we anthropomorphize balance and symmetry then put it to story as characters. The righteous king vs. the evil tyrant which promotes balance and justice vs. oppression. When empires fail in history societal symmetry is skewed too far. The wellbeing of our relationships are a balancing act.

COMMENT: See above comment. I respectfully disagree. Both individual humans and societies operate under prejudices and biases that promote superiority and advantage and minimize balance which arguably is part of our evolutionary heritage.
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Maybe this "mystical experience" improve one's sense of balance and symmetry while at the same time dissolving dogma thus freeing one's mind?

COMMENT: There is something about the mystical experience, at least the Eastern meditative experience, that is definitely balancing. Coupled with serenity, there is a psychological feeling of balance with oneself and nature. So, that is a good observation.

In sum, although we all crave some degree of psychological balance in the sense of inner peace; whether by mystical experience or otherwise, the real world in almost every respect seems to be imbalanced, which makes such efforts a constant challenge.

Thank you Henry for your thoughtful response. There are very few people up to the task to take on deep intellectual conversations in a meaningful way especially when most of the people you know are Mormon. You can't go very fair until you run into something idea that is dictated by the church.

"I don't see this. Although movies and stories may have stereotypical elements, humans themselves are most often portrayed as diverse. Most movies are not simplistic characterizations of hero-villain, good-evil, etc., and when they are, they are criticized as such, not lauded. In fact, it seems to me that the more complex the storyline, and characterizations involved, in general the more interesting the story or movie, and the more we think it mirrors reality."

COMMENT: I think these archetypes are patterns which have common attributes in stories, however the details might be different. It's one of those things that I've personally noticed in characters storylines after learning about archetypal patterns. For instance: RA, Christ, Krishna, and Buddha share striking commonalities that all resonant with people powerfully. The question is WHY? It's too much to really type out in a forum but here are some links that give background to this set of ideas. For a curious mind its worth the time investment to look into IMO.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_archetypes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH67HpFD2Ew
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero%27s_journey
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"We seem to be more than happy with imbalance; for example, the discrepancies in wealth, income, education, health care, etc. don't seem to bother us much."

COMMENT: I respectfully disagree. We put up with imbalance until which point it no longer is tolerable. Revolutions by the people in history were sparked by an imbalance of power and wealth: French, American, and Russian revolutions were generated as a result of this imbalance of power. Both communism and Adam Smith's capitalism (not todays neoliberal economic) are both ideologies which are attempting to distribute resources in a way which is even if failing. In the West the imbalance of austerity is showing its face and manifesting itself in Brexit, Trump, and the raising nationalism in other parts of Europe.

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"Well, in the physical world symmetry *breaking* is the natural order, not symmetry preserving. And this extends all the way up the ladder to complex systems that are asymmetrical, and far removed from equilibrium, however functionally balanced. Ecosystems are ecologically balanced, but only within a context of multiple participating complex natural systems that are individually highly unstable and to survive must fluctuate with the environment. (Adaptation)"

COMMENT: I probably should have explained my comment with more clarity. Yes, symmetry is breaking on one level of observation at a given moment in time, but underneath that observation prior to the point in time are conditions which equate to the observation.
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"Both individual humans and societies operate under prejudices and biases that promote superiority and advantage and minimize balance which arguably is part of our evolutionary heritage."

COMMENT: I agree with part of this sentiment. We are definitely programmed by our culture. The lenses in which we view the world is dictated in a large way by this programming. If someone lived in Nazi Germany they'd probably be a Nazi. Or a headhunter if one grew up in a tribe of headhunters. Of course there are acceptations to that rule, but those people have the been exposed to data beyond their culture and have the ability to think past it. An extreme example is why totalitarian governments burn books and censor information which is a perceived threat. A more subtle example is when people are too timid to express themselves because of fear of the mob, i.e. Mormons speaking out about the real history of Mormonism.

“Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses.” -Plato

As to our evolutionary heritage I wonder if we are in error if the notion of this is a dog eat dog world is a manifestation of our culture rather than a by product of evolution. If altruism and getting along wasn't a strong part of our evolutionary journey we'd be a hell of a lot stronger, have big teeth, and covered with hair. Also, when people work together in cooperative groups oxytocin is released, the same chemical that is released when we form bonds with a mate and children.

"According to Carl Jung/Joseph Campbell, all these items are themselves symbols and shadows of a much deeper primal imperative, which is the 'innate desire in all of us to achieve a transcendent awareness typified by the mystical experience'. According to this school of thought the mystical experience is the ultimate example of a 'rebirth' into a new life."
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I have studied a lot of this 'mystical' stuff for a number of years now because I had a 'strong' desire to find truth after being brain washed by Mormonism. These mystical areas were the only areas where 'people practicing' inferred they could actually 'know' truths.

I certainly disagree that this 'desire to search and experience mystical' stuff is shared by many. This is based on my visiting libraries and rarely finding many 'near these type of books' and buying some books on line and 'normally paying' less than the shipping price for the actual book!

I do agree people seem to like to read stories about experiences with God, after life, etc. but don't seem interested in directly going for these experiences.

I am a meditator now and it falls in line with almost all my 'mystical' stuff so that it seems to give others I know, not only 'inner peace' but many 'mystical' experiences (visions, dreams with meanings, voices with information, insights, and overall awareness of truths) similar to what I have experienced by going the 'mystical route' first.

Obviously, I cannot prove that but that is based on my personal experiences and those mediators I actually know. I normally now use this stuff to make my life easier and better. Last night I meditated then received a dream giving solutions to 3 'minor' issues that came about this last week. This stuff, though minor, really helps out and helps keep my 'inner peace'.

Many of these experiences felt like a 'rebirth' for me, however, coming out of Mormonism also felt like a 'rebirth' experience for me!

there is a theory that memory can be stored and transmitted to future generations within the dna of our cells, in a similar way immunity from certain diseases is also stored within our dna. For example, everyone alive today in the UK who can trace their line back to the plague is descended from someone who had a natural immunity to the plague and passed it down through dna.

If memory is also stored 'genetically' then this would account for the archetypes as Jung described them - something contained deep within our dna code, side by side with immunity to, say, chickenpox, together with our primal instincts for self-preservation.

However, it could just be that because we were all told fairy stories or folk tales when we were little, we recognised the heroes and anti-heroes in any story. They do say there are only around 5 stories in the world and everything is a variation of those 5, therefore it would not take a child forever to learn to recognise archetypical characters in any given story at the same time as they are mastering language and other forms of communication.

In this respect there would be no innate sense of justice, no desire for symmetry or balance - just dna at work.

Nonetheless, it was Jung's study of alchemists' writings and their use of the same symbols to represent the same stages of their 'experiments' - even though they were separated by time and distance and worked in isolation - that piqued his interest in archetypes and begin developing his theory of the collective subconscious.