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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: April 28, 2017 11:44AM

Francis S. Collins, a physician and the geneticist behind the Human Genome Project, is the director of the National Institutes of Health. He is also founder of the BioLogos Foundation (biologos.org), a group that fosters discussions about the intersection of Christianity and science.

http://bigthink.com/videos/why-its-so-hard-for-scientists-to-believe-in-god

From a National Geographic interview:

NG: "You’ve said that a blooming flower is not a miracle since we know how that happens. As a geneticist, you’ve studied human life at a fundamental level. Is there a miracle woven in there somewhere?"

FC: "Oh, yes. At the most fundamental level, it’s a miracle that there’s a universe at all. It’s a miracle that it has order, fine-tuning that allows the possibility of complexity, and laws that follow precise mathematical formulas. Contemplating this, an open-minded observer is almost forced to conclude that there must be a “mind” behind all this. To me, that qualifies as a miracle, a profound truth that lies outside of scientific explanation."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/03/150319-three-questions-francis-collins-nih-science/

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Posted by: Finally Free! ( )
Date: April 28, 2017 12:05PM

An appeal to authority and an argument from ignorance (from the authority), with a dash of "god of the gaps".

He contradicts himself. Understanding how a flower blooms makes it not a miracle because we understand it. Then states that because HE doesn't understand the order in the universe that it must be because of "fine-tuning" that there's complexity and laws.

What happens when we understand the nature of those laws, which we are learning more about as our understanding grows.

Contemplating this, an open-minded observer should be "almost forced to concluded" that assuming there is a "mind" behind all of this is silly. The more we understand the fewer "miracles" there are, there are fewer and fewer places to claim "god did it".

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: April 28, 2017 12:38PM

Finally Free! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> An appeal to authority and an argument from
> ignorance (from the authority), with a dash of
> "god of the gaps".
>

Actually, considering that this is his actual area of expertise you're one of the increasing minions who places faith in the "science of the gaps" theory with no evidence to support it.

The more we learn, the more we recognize there is a specific fine tuning to the universe that if altered in the most minute of ways would preclude the possibility of anything existing at all.

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Posted by: Jonny the Smoke ( )
Date: April 28, 2017 02:18PM

"The more we learn, the more we recognize there is a specific fine tuning to the universe that if altered in the most minute of ways would preclude the possibility of anything existing at all."

OK, fine. But what does that have to do with a "mind" a "creator" a "god" etc being behind it all?

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Posted by: eternal1 ( )
Date: April 28, 2017 02:23PM

God of the gaps

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Posted by: Finally Free! ( )
Date: April 28, 2017 02:44PM

It's saddens me to keep trying to point out the logical facilities in discussions like these. All you have presented is a God of the Gaps, that's it. I don't understand something therefore God. Our understanding continues to grow. Even experts in their field can make mistakes or believe things that have no basis in reality (see all the historians that teach at BYU as an example).

I get it, by this point I think it's pretty clear that you're going to believe what you believe and aren't going to see the logical issues with what you claim to be evidence. I hope that on some level you know that it is just belief, maybe you don't.

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Posted by: thingsithink ( )
Date: April 28, 2017 10:40PM

If God had not so specifically fine tuned the universe, we might have people cutting each others head off.

A glorious, intelligent creation . . . down to the last detail.

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Posted by: Bang ( )
Date: April 29, 2017 06:10PM

Fine tuned for what? It the universe is certainly not fine tuned for life. Even if all the planets we know about support life the universe would still overwhelmingly be hostile to life. Even on the one planet we know about that supports life, it could all be wiped out, and very nearly has been, in a geologic instant.

Fine tuned universe? To what end? Since it is horribly inefficient at supporting life, is the universe fine tuned for the sake of existence of the Universe?

What the science actually says is that if any parameters we know about, the universe, as we know it, would not exist. Science cannot predict that if the parameter was changed,something beyond our current knowledge could be created that is even more "fine tuned", whatever that is supposed to mean.

The "Fine Tuned" argument misrepresents the science, ignores the evidence and creates more questions than it answers.

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Posted by: Bang ( )
Date: April 30, 2017 01:41PM

Sorry, but being a geneticist makes him an authority on genetics, not god.

I see no evidence that God or the study of God is within his field of expertise.

To hype him as a important geneticist as if it validates his views on God is indeed a type of appeal to authority.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: May 01, 2017 03:42AM


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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: April 28, 2017 01:46PM

The problem Collins faced with the Human Genome Project was that it widened the gap instead of narrowing it. There turned out to be far fewer genes than expected, raising new questions about inheritance. Biologists have to look beyond the material, at least in private, to get to satisfactory explanations. This doesn't necessarily imply theism in the traditional sense. Science is actually infringing on religious territory, little by little. It's about time too, since religion is getting stale fast.

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Posted by: thingsithink ( )
Date: April 28, 2017 10:43PM

"What happens when we understand the nature of those laws, which we are learning more about as our understanding grows."

So, a god would only create things that we could never understand? That don't make sense? Like a god would make it where when a buffalo farts a duck falls out?

You really want a sign, eh?

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Posted by: smirkorama ( )
Date: April 30, 2017 03:25AM

thingsithink Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "What happens when we understand the nature of
> those laws, which we are learning more about as
> our understanding grows."
>
> So, a god would only create things that we could
> never understand? That don't make sense? Like a
> god would make it where when a buffalo farts a
> duck falls out?


Even so, that Still would NOT be as dumb as putting 56 billion genetic codes into the Human genome, and providing EACH and EVERY one of Trillions upon Trillions of cells in any given individual body with their own copy of the blueprint for that individual and then following up that complexity with safeguarding access to heaven with some stupid secret handshakes.

That act of MORmON god TRULY qualifies as STUPID beyond comprehension.

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Posted by: spiritist ( )
Date: April 28, 2017 12:11PM

Finally, we hear from 'real scientists' on this board. Even one that actually shows a bit of 'awareness'!

The normal is Bill Nye 'the science guy' ------ really????

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Posted by: Bang ( )
Date: April 29, 2017 06:18PM

When the "real scientist" uses "real science", rather than logical fallacies, in making claims about the existence of God, and those claims are peer reviewed, then I'll take note. To me, it reads like he is abandoning true science in order to rationalize some cognitive dissonance.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: May 01, 2017 03:45AM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2017 03:46AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: lurking in ( )
Date: April 28, 2017 12:41PM

... in our universe, require NOTHING to explain the existence of their INFINITELY complex God?

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Posted by: Happy_Heretic ( )
Date: April 28, 2017 12:59PM

Issac Newton believed in alchemy too. No amount of education or credentials can make a false belief true.

HH =)

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Posted by: Felix ( )
Date: April 28, 2017 01:05PM

Salient points Finally Free.

Francis Collins said "It’s a miracle that it has order, fine-tuning that allows the possibility of complexity, and laws that follow precise mathematical formulas."

I would submit that those precise mathematical formuals that allow for fine tuning and establish a balance of opposing forces are natural laws of the universe at work that exist regardless of the existence of a god.

There may be some intelligent being or beings capable of manipulating laws of universe for some grand purpose.

I’m not arguing for or against intelligent design. I’m simply saying that the arguments I hear in support of it aren't very convincing. We simply don't know.

I'm somewhat biased against religion. Mormonism, Christianity and most other religions have a history of committing atrocities in the name of obedience to some god.

I believe we as intelligent, compassionate beings are capable of arriving at better explanations and solutions to complex issues facing humanity without religious belief muddying the water. The challenge is getting everyone on the same page.

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Posted by: DumbLawyer ( )
Date: April 28, 2017 01:31PM

The final statement Collins makes, is that the laws of nature might have resulted from a mind, but once the laws of nature were in place, nature would develop accordingly.

He fully supports the Darwinian view of evolution.

He seems relatively comfortable with how life began, but has no idea as to why it began, other than the possibility of a mind explanation.

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Posted by: Bang ( )
Date: April 29, 2017 06:25PM

rebeljamesdean Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The final statement Collins makes, is that the
> laws of nature might have resulted from a mind,
> but once the laws of nature were in place, nature
> would develop accordingly.
>

Of Course that does not explain the "finely tuned" "mind" that created the universe.

I mean the intellect and the power of a mind that could create the "finely tuned" universe would have to have been finely tuned by some intellect, right?

An that mind finely tuned by another mind, and that mind ....

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Posted by: DumbLawyer ( )
Date: April 28, 2017 01:43PM

The video was great Tall Man. Do you know if Collins has weighed in on Jesus Christ?

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: April 28, 2017 01:48PM

rebeljamesdean Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The video was great Tall Man. Do you know if
> Collins has weighed in on Jesus Christ?


"I’m a scientist. When someone says that event was a miracle, it’s natural for me to be skeptical, because until one has exhausted natural explanations, it’s probably not a good idea to say that was a miraculous event. [...] But I do accept that in special moments God, who is supernatural, chooses to invade the natural world, and to us that appears as a miraculous event, and that includes especially the most important miracle for my faith, which is the literal resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/2006/07/21/july-21-2006-dr-francis-s-collins-interview/3676/

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Posted by: Happy_Heretic ( )
Date: April 28, 2017 03:27PM

This one is much better (more scientists):

https://youtu.be/s47ArcQL-XQ

HH =)

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Posted by: DumbLawyer ( )
Date: April 28, 2017 04:59PM

Happy_Heretic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This one is much better (more scientists):
>
> https://youtu.be/s47ArcQL-XQ
>
> HH =)

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Posted by: spiritist ( )
Date: April 28, 2017 08:50PM

I enjoyed the video and the 'academic attitudes' from scientists that primarily work with 'theories' and not with 'people'! The few I listened to seemed to not have 'studied' about any 'god' very much. I can respect where they are coming from.

I find it very interesting, and for good reason, that 'scientists/doctors' that actually work with people have a significantly different 'opinion'.

I believe it is because when someone actually works with 'humans versus theory' they see what is 'actually' occurring in the 'real world' and not just the controlled 'laboratory'.

Doctor's see people that should die based on medical science, pray or be prayed for, and 'without logical explanation' be healed. I understand this doesn't happen every time but why would it happen at all? Certainly not in a world of 'theories' only!

Therefore, 76% of doctors believe in 'God' and the majority believe in an after life. On the other hand, I didn't find any 'believers' in a God of any kind by listening to the first 4-5 'scientists' on your video.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/8318894/ns/health-health_care/t/survey-most-doctors-believe-god-afterlife/#.WQPg7q2GPiw

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Posted by: Jonny the Smoke ( )
Date: April 28, 2017 05:42PM

Francis Collins: "I’m a scientist. When someone says that event was a miracle, it’s natural for me to be skeptical, because until one has exhausted natural explanations, it’s probably not a good idea to say that was a miraculous event. [...] But I do accept that in special moments God, who is supernatural, chooses to invade the natural world, and to us that appears as a miraculous event, and that includes especially the most important miracle for my faith, which is the literal resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."

Jonny the Smoke: I’m a Process Engineer. When someone says that event was a miracle, it’s natural for me to be skeptical, because until one has exhausted natural explanations, it’s probably not a good idea to say that was a miraculous event. [...] But I do accept that in special moments Elves, who are supernatural, choose to invade the factory, and to us that appears as a miraculous event, and that includes especially the most important miracle for my career, which is the literal appearance of Elves in the factory at night.

That about sums it up.

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Posted by: DumbLawyer ( )
Date: April 28, 2017 02:34PM

One thing that troubles me about the resurrection story is why would God send his only begotten son to such a violent death?

Couldn't God just decide to forgive anyone he chose for any reason he chose?

Does it make sense that anyone other than myself pay for my sins?

A judge sentencing a murderer wouldn't allow one of the murderers family members to serve the sentence.

If the best answer is that the scriptures prophesied it, that is not very persuasive to me.

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: April 29, 2017 01:07PM

rebeljamesdean Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One thing that troubles me about the resurrection
> story is why would God send his only begotten son
> to such a violent death?
>
> Couldn't God just decide to forgive anyone he
> chose for any reason he chose?
>
> Does it make sense that anyone other than myself
> pay for my sins?
>
> A judge sentencing a murderer wouldn't allow one
> of the murderers family members to serve the
> sentence.
>
> If the best answer is that the scriptures
> prophesied it, that is not very persuasive to me.


All good questions.

As you can imagine, these things are the topics of a thousand books and many more sermons.

My understanding is from what I see around me: The universe is governed by immutable laws. For example, science still has no understanding why gravity works. There is no discernible reason why the mass of an object causes it to attract other objects based upon their mass. But we see this law in action with such reliability we can plot spacecraft to travel accurately over millions of miles with confidence that gravity will work identically at every step of the way.

I have no idea whether the Adam and Eve story was actual or metaphorical, but I do know it presented the first example of vicarious atonement through the shedding of blood. Upon their fall, the story shows that the first pair were given animal skins to cover their nakedness. Death is introduced as a literal and metaphorical covering for our sins. It is every bit as much a part of universal law as is gravity.

This law was carried out throughout Jewish history with sacrifices, and it was seen more as a payment of debt than a punishment for sin. This is why it can be done vicariously. You are correct that no judge will send a friend or relative to serve your jail time, but any court will accept payment from others to cover a debt you owe.

C.S. Lewis addresses this in "Mere Christianity:"

"The one most people have heard is the one about our being let off because Christ volunteered to bear a punishment instead of us. Now on the face of it that is a very silly theory. If God was prepared to let us off, why on earth did He not do so? And what possible point could there be in punishing an innocent person instead? None at all that I can see, if you are thinking of punishment in the police-court sense. On the other hand, if you think of a debt, there is plenty of point in a person who has some assets paying it on behalf of someone who has not. Or if you take "paying the penalty," not in the sense of being punished, but in the more general sense of "footing the bill," then, of course, it is a matter of common experience that, when one person has got himself into a hole, the trouble of getting him out usually falls on a kind friend."

Lewis carries out his explanation with greater detail and the nuances required by God assuming humanity in Jesus to accomplish the atonement. You can read the full passage at this link:
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ca_lewisatone.html

Hebrews 9 also explains more fully the death and resurrection within the context of the Jewish sacrificial system:
http://biblehub.com/niv/hebrews/9.htm



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2017 01:21PM by Tall Man, Short Hair.

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Posted by: DumbLawyer ( )
Date: April 29, 2017 01:33PM

Tall man:

I appreciate your attempt to respond to my question. For me, we can try and find a reasonable answer to these questions which you do, or we can just say this is too silly to believe. That is where I am at. Sure doesn't make me right:)

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: April 29, 2017 04:17PM

rebeljamesdean Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tall man:
>
> I appreciate your attempt to respond to my
> question. For me, we can try and find a reasonable
> answer to these questions which you do, or we can
> just say this is too silly to believe. That is
> where I am at. Sure doesn't make me right:)


Agreed. I still think it's silly that objects should be attracted to each other based upon their mass, but there it is.

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Posted by: thingsithink ( )
Date: April 30, 2017 02:57AM

Sometimes when I wonder why my feet stick to the ground, I remind myself that Jesus died on the cross.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: April 30, 2017 01:36PM

Tall Man, Short Hair Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Agreed. I still think it's silly that objects
> should be attracted to each other based upon their
> mass, but there it is.


Maybe you missed some physics classes along with skipping biology classes.

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: April 30, 2017 01:46PM

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tall Man, Short Hair Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Agreed. I still think it's silly that objects
> > should be attracted to each other based upon
> their
> > mass, but there it is.
>
>
> Maybe you missed some physics classes along with
> skipping biology classes.


Actually I was there paying rapt attention. Have you finally figured out the mechanism that causes gravity? Did you discover the Graviton Particle?

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Posted by: Finally Free! ( )
Date: May 01, 2017 04:08PM

And when we do learn how gravity works and understand it's mechanism you will probably just move on to the next "Gap" to shove your god into.

You're no better than people thousands of years ago who didn't understand the mechanisms for lightening and thunder and called that "God".

Arguments from ignorance is not "proof" of "God".

Arguments for the God of the Gaps just means your "God" gets smaller and smaller as our understanding grows.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: May 01, 2017 04:16PM

Tall Man, Short Hair Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > > Agreed. I still think it's silly that objects
> > > should be attracted to each other based upon
> > their
> > > mass, but there it is.

> Actually I was there paying rapt attention. Have
> you finally figured out the mechanism that causes
> gravity? Did you discover the Graviton Particle?

I think he was referring to the fact that objects *aren't* attracted to each other based upon their mass.
General relativity, well-established with evidence, demonstrates that matter 'warps' space-time, producing curved paths in space-time that matter follows. That is what produces what sort LOOKS like objects being attracted to each other based on their mass, but in fact isn't that at all...objects are just following the curved paths in space-time produced by mass.

And...as pointed out, if we don't know something, 'god did it' isn't the default answer.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: May 01, 2017 03:38PM

A bummer for believers.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jDFDpzWJj2s#



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2017 03:51PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: pollythinks ( )
Date: April 28, 2017 02:50PM

Huh? So, when/how did LIFE begin? (Still no consensus?)

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Posted by: koriwhore ( )
Date: April 29, 2017 05:55PM

Still no consensus on whether or not viruses constitute "life" so no consensus on what constitutes "Life".

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: May 01, 2017 03:35AM


Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2017 03:51AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: NeverMoJohn ( )
Date: April 28, 2017 02:52PM

It is great that Dr Collins can believe in God freely and pursue his work freely. It is just a great that others can freely believe in other gods or no god and pursue their work freely.

I think that the problems start when pressure is applied to believe in God or a particular religion and force scientific results to fit pre-ordained religious precepts.

Freedom of religion and/or from religion is absolutely critical to a free and peaceful society. It is also critically important to science (as poor Galileo can attest).

I haven't seen any evidence of Dr Collins trying to force his religion on others. As long as that is the case, he can carry on and I wish him well with his work and his life. To me, this is what being an American is all about.

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Posted by: Bang ( )
Date: April 29, 2017 07:03PM

Yes, I agree, Dr Collins can pursue his religious beliefs and I do not see him trying to push his beliefs on anyone. I also do not see him making a scientific claims about god's existence.

I do see people trying to state or imply that because he is a scientist, that gives credibility to what he says about God.

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Posted by: DumbLawyer ( )
Date: April 28, 2017 03:19PM

Amen!!!

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: April 28, 2017 11:04PM

so much bullshit, so little time.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: April 29, 2017 11:52AM

As a geneticist using the scientific method, he's done some good work.

As a "believer" using arguments from personal incredulity and ignorance, his "beliefs" have no more merit than anyone else's -- since unlike his genetics work, he has no evidence to back them up.

His use, for example, of the "fine-tuning" argument demonstrates that he doesn't apply the same scientific method reasoning to his "beliefs" that he does to his genetic work. Shame.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: April 29, 2017 02:34PM

Yes, he has done some great work. Way back when he was a cutting edge scientist, he was an atheist and provided some great quotes with excellent justification to support his claims.

Then he got older and looser in his views. He has never refuted the sound reasoning he gave to support atheism. It appears he just decided to believe based on issues like complexity (of the universe or biology, etc.) which are not proof for a god except to a believer. They do not present any evidence to support their conversion which is fine, but it's not like that is convincing to a studied atheist.

Like any believer, an atheist can "just believe" a certain view. There are many atheists with sloppy standards for evidence of course. Maybe the person values anecdotal evidence, 2nd hand experience, authority figures, preconceived conclusions and wishful thinking over not having evidence at all. Believing in a god answers a lot of questions, except for the problem of explaining how a complex god can just exist out of nowhere. Honestly, the inconsistency of their arguments makes them lose credibility, IMO.

Collins, back in his prime, knew full well that the justification he uses now is not evidence. I tend to cut him a lot of slack because he has contributed to my atheistic views through his work. He seems to envision something bigger but he has not provided anything new for support or evidence.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: April 29, 2017 06:35PM

I have read some of his works and I dont recall that he claimed to have proof of God. He believes and he doesnt find his belief in contradiction to science and he is right as far as that goes. He may or may not be right about God,but the same is true for atheists.No one knows.

Also, according to Wiki,he considered himself an atheist during his student years. Apparently, most of his scientific work was done as a believer- including finding the genome for cystic fibrosis.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2017 06:46PM by bona dea.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: April 29, 2017 07:40PM

I do agree with you.

His work in biology helped me dismiss the need to add god. He has managed to make both "fit" in his views.

The quote I had in mind was from an interview around 2006 (Belief net article) when one of his books came out. This shows in full context (showing I do agree with you) the kind of reconciliation that works for him.

Note his statement between the asterisks (I inserted the asterisks). He knows full well that his work has provided support for an un-driven evolutionary process. He has provided proof of his work in biology. He then uses his religion to explain "why" for him. That part is complete fluff that he is making up to make his Bible views fit.


Here is a the quote:

"As someone who's had the privilege of leading the human genome project, I've had the opportunity to study our own DNA instruction book at a level of detail that was never really possible before."

"It's also now been possible to compare our DNA with that of many other species. The evidence supporting the idea that all living things are descended from a common ancestor is truly overwhelming."

"******I would not necessarily wish that to be so, as a Bible-believing Christian. But it is so. It does not serve faith well to try to deny that********."

"But I have no difficulty putting that together with what I believe as a Christian because I believe that God had a plan to create creatures with whom he could have fellowship, in whom he could inspire [the] moral law, in whom he could infuse the soul, and who he would give free will as a gift for us to make decisions about our own behavior, a gift which we oftentimes utilize to do the wrong thing."

"I believe God used the mechanism of evolution to achieve that goal. And while that may seem to us who are limited by this axis of time as a very long, drawn-out process, it wasn't long and drawn-out to God. And it wasn't random to God."

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: April 29, 2017 07:52PM

I dont totally agree with him but he is entitled to his interpretation and his faith. I dont see a problem between his beliefs and science even if I dont agree with all he says. Religious belief is more about faith than evidence anyway and it obviously works for him and many others.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2017 03:24AM by bona dea.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: May 01, 2017 10:13AM

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "I believe God used the mechanism of evolution to
> achieve that goal. And while that may seem to us
> who are limited by this axis of time as a very
> long, drawn-out process, it wasn't long and
> drawn-out to God. And it wasn't random to God."

That addresses my point above precisely.
I don't care what he 'believes.'
Whether he believes a christian god did something, or as someone pointed out tongue-in-cheek above, that elves did something.

His 'beliefs' aren't backed by any evidence, and he didn't arrive at them using the scientific method.
So they're no more 'authoritative' or 'right' than anyone else's. They're speculation, wishful thinking, faith.
And not factual in any way.

That he's also done good science is irrelevant. His beliefs aren't science at all. So who cares what he believes?

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: May 01, 2017 06:15PM


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Posted by: koriwhore ( )
Date: April 29, 2017 06:04PM

Most of us are uncomfortable with the reality that we exist in a giant mystety wrapped up in an even bigger enigmas spiralling towards another, even bigger mystery we will never know. So they make up stories to allow themselves to sleep at night. They tell their kids these stories to help them make sense of the world.

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Posted by: Bang ( )
Date: April 29, 2017 07:43PM

I do not know of anyone that states that no scientists believe in God.

But there is something interesting when we step back from talking about the views of one, or a group, of scientists.

Here is an article from the Pew Research Center regarding scientists and the belief in God.

http://www.pewforum.org/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/

In the United States, 8% of the general population believes in God, 12% in some sort of higher power, and only 4 percent do not believe in either.

When it comes to scientists, the numbers are dramatically different.

For scientists 33 percent believe in God, 17 percent in a higher power and 41 percent do not believe in others.

The "I do not know" numbers change from 1% in the general population to 7% in the scientific community.

That is a huge difference between that general population and the general population.

It seems to indicate that the more scientifically educated you are, the less likely you are to believe in God compared to the general population.

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Posted by: Bang ( )
Date: April 29, 2017 07:48PM

I typed that the general population had 8% of the general population believing in god, it is reported in the article that it is 83%

Sorry for the typo.

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Posted by: Bang ( )
Date: April 29, 2017 07:58PM

With all this talk about scientists believing in God, it is easy to forget that there is a growing community of atheists that are, or were clergy.


http://clergyproject.org/

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 29, 2017 09:02PM

. . . otherwise deceitfully disguised as so-called "intelligent design"--which is nothing more than a bumbling, boneheaded effort by Bible fundamentalists to get their screwy brand of religious extremism taught in the science classes of public schools at taxpayers' expense. This purported "scientific creationism/intelligent design" is simply warmed-over Christian crusading calculatingly pretending to be scientific methodology.

It was exposed as such at the federal court level, with the presiding judge sending these ungodly goofballs and their medieval masquerade of unholy hooey packing in a blistering decision that labeled their overheated hodgepodge of ignorant "intelligent design" as not only uninformed, but unconstitutional.

You can read the full text of that clarion call to clear-headedness below, preceded by the following short summary of how the creationists got blown out of court:

"(This is the decision of the court in the Kitzmiller et al. v Dover Area School District et al. case. Judge John E. Jones III, who was nominated by President George W. Bush, made a very strong ruling against intelligent design. He ruled that it is creationism and is not science. He also ruled that members of Dover's school board lied under oath to hide their religious motivations. This archive also hosts transcripts of the trial. See the Dover index page)."

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/kitzmiller_v_dover_decision.html
-----

Here's a detailed rendering of how the creationists' Tower of Babble came tumbling down:

"Judge Rejects Teaching Intelligent Design"
By Laurie Goodstein
"New York Times"
21 December 2005
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2005/12/21/education/judge-rejects-teaching-intelligent-design.html

"HARRISBURG, Pa., Dec. 20 - A federal judge ruled on Tuesday that it was unconstitutional for a Pennsylvania school district to present intelligent design as an alternative to evolution in high school biology courses because it is a religious viewpoint that advances "a particular version of Christianity."

"In the nation's first case to test the legal merits of intelligent design, the judge, John E. Jones III, issued a broad, stinging rebuke to its advocates and provided strong support for scientists who have fought to bar intelligent design from the science curriculum.

"Judge Jones also excoriated members of the Dover, Pa., school board, who he said lied to cover up their religious motives, made a decision of 'breathtaking inanit' and 'dragged' their community into 'this legal maelstrom with its resulting utter waste of monetary and personal resources.'

"Eleven parents in Dover, a growing suburb about 20 miles south of Harrisburg, sued their school board a year ago after it voted to have teachers read students a brief statement introducing intelligent design in ninth-grade biology class.

"The statement said that there were 'gaps in the theory' of evolution and that intelligent design was another explanation they should examine.

"Judge Jones, a Republican appointed by President Bush, concluded that intelligent design was not science, and that in order to claim that it is, its proponents admit they must change the very definition of science to include supernatural explanations.

"Judge Jones said that teaching intelligent design as science in public school violated the First Amendment of the Constitution, which prohibits public officials from using their positions to impose or establish a particular religion.

"'To be sure, Darwin's theory of evolution is imperfect' Judge Jones wrote. 'However, the fact that a scientific theory cannot yet render an explanation on every point should not be used as a pretext to thrust an untestable alternative hypothesis grounded in religion into the science classroom or to misrepresent well-established scientific propositions.'

"The six-week trial in Federal District Court in Harrisburg gave intelligent design the most thorough academic and legal airing since the movement's inception about 15 years ago, and was often likened to the momentous Scopes case that put evolution on trial 80 years earlier.

"Intelligent design posits that biological life is so complex that it must have been designed by an intelligent source. Its adherents say that they refrain from identifying the designer, and that it could even be aliens or a time traveler.

"But Judge Jones said the evidence in the trial proved that intelligent design was 'creationism relabeled.'

"The Supreme Court has already ruled that creationism, which relies on the biblical account of the creation of life, cannot be taught as science in a public school.

"Judge Jones's decision is legally binding only for school districts in the middle district of Pennsylvania. It is unlikely to be appealed because the school board members who supported intelligent design were unseated in elections in November and replaced with a slate that opposes the intelligent design policy and said it would abide by the judge's decision.

"Lawyers for the plaintiffs said at a news conference in Harrisburg that the judge's decision should serve as a deterrent to other school boards and teachers considering teaching intelligent design.

"'It's a carefully reasoned, highly detailed opinion,' said Richard Katskee, assistant legal director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, 'that goes through all of the issues that would be raised in any other school district.'

"Richard Thompson, the lead defense lawyer for the school board, derided the judge for issuing a sweeping judgment in a case that Mr. Thompson said merely involved a 'one-minute statement' being read to students. He acknowledged that his side, too, had asked the judge to rule on the scientific merits of intelligent design, but only because it had to respond to the plaintiffs' arguments.

"'A thousand opinions by a court that a particular scientific theory is invalid will not make that scientific theory invalid,' said Mr. Thompson, the president and chief counsel of the Thomas More Law Center, a public interest firm in Ann Arbor, Mich., that says it promotes Christian values. 'It is going to be up to the scientists who are going to continue to do research in their labs that will ultimately determine that.'

"The scientists who have put intelligent design forward as a valid avenue of scientific research said they were disappointed by Judge Jones's ruling but that they thought its long-term effects would be limited.

"'That was a real drag,' said Michael J. Behe, a professor of biochemistry at Lehigh University who was the star witness for the intelligent design side. 'I think he really went way over what he as a judge is entitled to say.'

"Dr. Behe added: 'He talks about the ground rules of science. What has a judge to do with the ground rules of science? I think he just chose sides and echoed the arguments and just made assertions about our arguments.'

"William A. Dembski, a mathematician who argues that mathematics can show the presence of design in the development of life, predicted that intelligent design would become much stronger within 5 to 10 years.

"Both Dr. Behe and Dr. Dembski are fellows with the Discovery Institute, a leading proponent of intelligent design.

"'I think the big lesson is, let's go to work and really develop this theory and not try to win this in the court of public opinion," Dr. Dembski said. "The burden is on us to produce.'

"Mainstream scientists who have maintained that no controversy exists in the scientific community over evolution were elated by Judge Jones's ruling.

"'Jubilation,' said Kenneth R. Miller, a professor of biology at Brown University who has actively sparred with intelligent design proponents and testified in the Dover case. 'I think the judge nailed it.'

"Dr. Miller said he was glad that the judge did not just rule narrowly.

"Jason D. Rosenhouse, a professor of mathematics at James Madison University in Virginia and a fervent pro-evolution blogger said: 'I was laughing as I read it because I don't think a scientist could explain it any better. His logic is flawless, and he hit all of the points that scientists have been making for years.'

"Before the start of a celebratory news conference in Harrisburg, Tammy Kitzmiller, a parent of two daughters in the Dover district and the named plaintiff in the case, Kitzmiller et al v. Dover, joked with other plaintiffs that she had an idea for a new bumper sticker: 'Judge Jones for President.'

"Christy Rehm, another plaintiff, said to the others, 'We've done something amazing here, not only with this decision, but with the election.'

"Last month, Dover, which usually votes majority Republican, ousted eight school board members who had backed intelligent design and elected the opposition that ran on a Democratic ticket.

"Witold Walczak, legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Pennsylvania, who helped to argue the case, said, 'We sincerely hope that other school districts who may have been thinking about intelligent design will pause, they will read Judge Jones's erudite opinion and they will look at what happened in the Dover community in this battle, pitting neighbor against neighbor.'

"The judge's ruling said that two of the most outspoken proponents of intelligent design on the Dover school board, William Buckingham and Alan Bonsell, lied in their depositions about how they raised money in a church to buy copies of an intelligent design textbook, 'Of Pandas and People,' to put in the school library.

"Both men, according to testimony, had repeatedly said at school board meetings that they objected to evolution for religious reasons and wanted to see creationism taught on equal footing.

"Judge Jones wrote, 'It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the I.D. policy.'

"Mr. Bonsell did not respond to a telephone message on Tuesday. Mr. Buckingham, a retired police officer who has moved to Mount Airy, N.C., said, 'If the judge called me a liar, then he's a liar.'

"Mr. Buckingham said he 'answered the questions the way they asked them.' He called the decision 'ludicrous' and said, 'I think Judge Jones ought to be ashamed of himself.'

"The Constitution, he said, does not call for the separation of church and state.

"In his opinion, Judge Jones traced the history of the intelligent design movement to what he said were its roots in Christian fundamentalism. He seemed especially convinced by the testimony of Barbara Forrest, a historian of science, that the authors of the "Pandas" textbook had removed the word 'creationism' from an earlier draft and substituted it with 'intelligent design' after the Supreme Court's ruling in 1987.

"'We conclude that the religious nature of intelligent design would be readily apparent to an objective observer, adult or child," the judge said. "The writings of leading I.D. proponents reveal that the designer postulated by their argument is the God of Christianity.'

"Opponents of intelligent design said Judge Jones's ruling would not put an end to the movement, and predicted that intelligent design would take on various guises.

"The Kansas Board of Education voted in November to adopt standards that call into question the theory of evolution, but never explicitly mention intelligent design.

"Eugenie Scott, executive director, National Center for Science Education, an advocacy group in Oakland, Calif., that promotes teaching evolution, said in an interview, 'I predict that another school board down the line will try to bring intelligent design into the curriculum like the Dover group did, and they'll be a lot smarter about concealing their religious intent.'

"Even after courts ruled against teaching creationism and creation science, Ms. Scott said, 'for several years afterward, school districts were still contemplating teaching creation science.'"
_____


For the text of the Kitzmiller case above, along with highlights from the court proceedings featuring "expert testimony by Kevin Padian, professor of paleontology at U.C. Berkeley and President of [the National Center for Science Education] Board of Directors]"; "the word charts from Barbara Forrest's testimony that show replacement of word 'creation' with 'intelligent design' after the 1987 Edwards v. Aguillard decision"; and "cdesign proponentsists," go to the NCSE website and click on the links to said highlights:

https://ncse.com/library-resource/kitzmiller-v-dover-intelligent-design-trial



Edited 16 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2017 01:19AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: April 30, 2017 01:07PM

I don't presently recall if I've ever personally advocated teaching ID in public schools. You seem to be able to cull up old posts of mine, so perhaps you can refresh my memory. I am certain I haven't suggested it in this thread, and it's not something I see any other poster suggesting.

But as we've all seen, this is an area that causes you great distress. The mere suggestion of ID appears to be a trigger event. I realize artists such as yourself are often much more sensitive to the world around them than the rest of us, so I'm glad you have this forum to vent your fears even though you're venting at a suggestion that has not been made.

I want to offer you my personal promise that if I find someone hijacking this thread and arguing that ID should be taught in public schools, I'll do my best to track them down and hand them over to you with the suggestion that at your next Freedom From Religion Foundation confab you pull them to the podium during the Friday night dinner meet and greet and allow all assembled to throw various items from the fruit and salad bar at them while taunting them for their woo woo sky daddy idiotic beliefs.

Sound fair?

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Posted by: Human ( )
Date: April 30, 2017 01:30PM

TO THOSE WHO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH STEVE BENSON, THE FIRST OPTION IS TO SIMPLY IGNORE. EASY.

BUT IF YOU CAN'T DO THAT, TMSH, HERE AND ELSEWHERE LATELY, DEMONSTRATES A TONE & HUMOUR THAT MAY NOT BE EFFECTIVE IN SILENCING STEVE BENSON, IF THAT IS THE GOAL, BUT GOES A LONG WAY IN ENJOYABILITY FOR READERS.

Thank you, Tall Man, Short Hair.

Human, generally not a fan of whining to the mods who already give of themselves so freely

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: May 01, 2017 03:30AM

The oroblem, however, is that good comedy has an element of truth at its core. That's where Tall TalesShort Facts' act falls flat.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: May 01, 2017 03:24AM

. . . is entirely relevant to this thread because your personal endorsement on this board of biblical Christian God-produced "miracles" as the supposed foundation for life on earth is what drives your deep anathema toward mainstream science.

You have openly stated on this board your support for so-called "creation science," otherwise unintrlligently described as "intelligent design"--the latter which is based in the "miracle"-minded notion that God created the earth and all its lifeforms through supernatural means

You have testified on this board that the "miracle" Jesus is God and that only through accepting Jesus as one's Savior can people come to know how the world was really put together.

You have declared on this board that the "miracle"-touting Christian Bible is more reliable than empirical scientific evidence.

You have announcrd on this board that the world needs is more of the "miracles" of Jesus and less of "propaganda" of science.

You have attested on this board that the so-called "historical Jesus" is revealed and ratified through "miracles" and not through secular history.

Indeed, your OP in this thread focuses on promoting your personal affirmation that life is not a scientifically-explained matter but, rather, is a manifestation of God-driven "miracles."

I have not hijacked this thread in the lesst. Instead, I have highlighted that you believe, accept and promote purported "intelligent design" as the source life.

The Kitzmiller vs. Dover decision exposed the undeniable fact that slleged "intelligent design" is a pathetic and purposeful fraud that has no place being taught in the science classes of public schools because it is not only religion masquerading as science, it is a demonstrable exercise in intentional lying by its religiously extremist backers who have purposely misled the public about its theocratic content and intent. That fact becomes abundantly clear through a reading of the text of the decision as issued by the presiding judge in the case who cited specific and overwhelming evidence of unintelligent and unethical tactics of its unprincipal proponents.

"Divine miracles" are at the very heart of your assault on mainstream science.

They are at the heart of your OP topping this thread.

They are at the heart of the Kitzmiller case--a heart which the ruling rips out of the crude and corrupt "creationist" chest. That reality proves you've been busted and can't be trusted. All your come-to-Jesus testimony does is seal your lack of credibility. In the end, it's all you've got. Just like the Mormons. You do need to apologize--to them--for stealing their line.



Edited 15 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2017 02:51PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: May 01, 2017 06:29PM

That makes it relevant to this thread of yours, since you're the one who introduced "miracles" into your creation talk.

It's an easy thing to pull up old posts of yours via this forum's search tool. I would recommend you start doing yourself when it comes to your old posts. It might encourage you to delete some of them, given that they don't represent either (1) a respect for or (2) an understanding of mainstream scientific methodology and how it works. You certainly seem to believe this about general scientific principles and practices, since it is you who plugs in convenient "miracles" to fill gaps that exist in your personal knowledge or in the areas where mainstream science has not yet reached an definitive investigative determination on a given subject.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2017 06:36PM by steve benson.

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