Another thread talked about how women are treated in the Mormon church and viewed in LDS culture. I have to say, I think men are treated like crap too. Both men and women are taught terrible generalizations about the opposite sex. Not all TBMs buy into these generalizations - it depends a lot on the person's common sense and upbringing. But the generalizations seem to abound like the ideas "People only leave the church because they are offended" or "You will become a terrible person if you leave the church."

About Men - Women are taught that men are more righteous the more prosperous they are. That men are immoral and that they need the church's teaching to keep them in line and faithful. They are taught that a man who doesn't serve a mission or doesn't want to marry in the temple is somehow second class. That it's OK to expect a man to take care of you - to be a constant handsome prince. That it's OK to marry an image rather than really looking hard at the person you are going to marry and viewing them as a unique individual. It's more important how a guy fits the prescribed LDS Man description. They are taught that men prefer women who are childlike and submissive and that men probably want you to stay home with the kids even if said men have to work two jobs.

About Women - Men are also taught that women should fit into the church's image - beautiful, a good homemaker, willing to let the guy be the head of the household, willing to give up her career for the family. That women need priesthood supervision. That when they are a single, RM that most women are dying to get their hands on that man's giant ... um priesthood. They are taught women need a man to get them into heaven. Prior to their mission, that women are a temptation to lead them away from serving. They learn that women need permission from the priesthood to simply serve in the church and that they can get revelation for their womenfolk, but not the other way around.

I know I'm forgetting a lot and I know that some of these things are easing with the younger generation. I also want to say again, not everyone falls for these generalizations and many good people have more sense. But these trends to believe misinformation about men and women and relationships are still prevalent in the church and damaging to both parties.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2017 09:54PM by CA girl.

Hi Ca girl!

I agree that men are also limited and controlled in TSCC.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1295716,1295716#msg-1295716

That's right, they marry an image not a person. When the partner "falls away", actually TSCC falls away from them, the image is broken. They're still the same person but the TBM doesn't get that. Life becomes all about following the script to please "Heavenly Father", which happens to be a script with ulterior motives. It's the world's most overpriced sh!t sandwich.

Yes, it's like they are casting for a role instead of looking for a mate, a lover, a best friend. When the "actor" fails in his/her role by leaving the church, time to recast. Sad.

I feel the sorriest for the children--those little innocent souls that cry out in despair in sacrament meeting, "I want to go home!" Children are not respected, the same as women are not respected, because they have no salary. (Though, the church grabs at their inheritances and the little ones' allowances and lemonade money.)

The Mormons know only half-scriptures: "Suffer the little children."

My children were physically abused, as well as verbally threatened, demeaned, and lied to. It is NOT "the best way to raise children."

No one expects LOVE anymore, at the MOrmon church.

Excellent point.

I realize that women have it tough in Mormonism. However, as an outsider, it seems to me that Mormonism only works if the majority of the men are rather submissive.

As an outsider, I am consistently surprised at what Mormon men put up with. Most non Mormon men would not put up with the privacy invasions and lack of boundaries that seem to be rampant in Mormonism.

Bishops demand answers to extremely personal and financial questions to determine "worthiness" and people actually answer the questions. Men allow their children to be grilled about sexual questions by an untrained bishop! In private!!

Wards interfere in family relationships with impunity. Demands on the man's time, as well as his family time, are made without a second thought. Sundays are just monopolized by the Mormon church. Men are told how to dress down to a ridiculous level of detail (white shirts, ties and special underwear).

Perhaps by treating women with even less respect, they can retain men in their submissive role, because the men see their wives and other women as more submissive than the men, and thus the situation is that little bit less degrading for them.

Most non Mormon men would find most Mormon demands unacceptable.

Women are lesser, but I'd much rather be a woman than a man in the mormon church.

I wouldn't want the fake authority of having priesthood and I wouldn't be able to survive the MTC let alone an actual mission.

And as Cheryl said, I'd prefer to be a woman in mormonism than a man. I used to feel so sorry for the deacons when they'd pass the sacrament or the priests giving the sacrament prayers. Last thing I'd want to do. I never even wanted a bishop for a husband. I wanted my husband at home. Since my father didn't make much of having the priesthood, I never thought it was a big deal.

I agree completely that both genders have it rough. Males who don't serve a mission are judged, but the worst judgements are for those who return from a mission early, as Mormon women are taught from birth to only consider marrying a RM, not someone who returned early or didn't serve. When Mormons get together, the males all talk about their missions, or if they have adult children, they brag about those missions as well.

Most non-Mormons wouldn't put up with the privacy invasions that go on such as the garment feel-ups, and the Thought Police, I mean HT's or VT's showing up uninvited if someone misses a Sunday because they didn't want to spread their flu or cold to the ward.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2017 02:09PM by adoylelb.

No one has it easy in the LDS church.

I agree with Cheryl. Women are considered lesser, but the priesthood responsibility that is required from men is burdensome.

I believe that things might be more difficult for men if they decide to leave the church. They're all of the sudden considered "unworthy" of the priesthood and can't baptize or bless their own children or participate in other priesthood ordinances and it's something that's noticed by everyone. Women can often leave the church a little more quietly and unnoticed.

This thread reminded me of a book I read a few years ago, although the title slips my mind. It included the account of a man who left the church during Brigham Young's time. He said that he thought the purpose of polygamy was to burden men so heavily with family responsibilities that they couldn't possibly leave the church. That was interesting to me because I always thought women had the short end of the stick in polygamy. I never really considered how things might have been for a man.

The thing I feel worst about for the guys is the way so many LDS women hang around their guy's neck, expecting them to be practically perfect, fulfill callings, keep up the standard of living expected, etc. Instead of an equal partnership where people are loved for who they are, Mormon women are often in love with who they expect their spouse to be. And they expect A LOT. I think having all that on their shoulders must be so hard, especially when your wife is in love with an ideal of a man, more so than you. I had a Mormon once tell me they thought their spouse was fooling around because they could never live up to what was wanted - then they realized they were expected to live up to some unattainable ideal rather than an actual person their spouse was were cheating with. I don't know if they were comforted by the fact their spouse was faithful or in despair because no one can be as perfect as an imaginary lover.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/2017 01:06AM by CA girl.

Thank you for that very accurate observation.

I completely agree.


MORmONISM quite suck-cess fully destroyed both of my parent's ability to be (substantive) parents as it destroyed my male parent's ability to be a (substantive) man and my female parent's ability to be a (substantive) woman, as it destroyed their ability to be (substantive) people, as their lives were so abjectly based on hollow empty MORmONISM which has no real substance they were left with no personal substance to sustain themselves or any one else. Everything (EVERYTHING) was deferred back to THE church and the MORmON religion as the (supposed) superior authority on everything. My female would be parent was coerced into being super submissive to the point of being a non entity /non person who NEVER had a thought of her own and who did not really exist in spite of having a pulse. My Male parent simply parroted everything that his "THE" (MORmON) church said. He became "THE" church's bitch in the household and in the ward.... and in my life. He was completely incapable of doing anything with out considering how it might impact his good member MORmON image and his campaign to become ward bishop, which never did succeeded.

My would be parents would like to think of themselves as wonderful parents because they raised their children in THE church. THE influence of THE Church supposedly more than makes up for any deficiencies that they may have had. They were so busy raising the other ward member's children via THE church's programs and their callings that they had no time to spend with their own children's concerns and well being, but AWOL DEAD WOOD LAME ASS MORmON Jesus was supposed to somehow kick back in on that deal. When the REAL value of THE church's influence is factored back into the equation, my would be MORmON parent's parenting skills look pretty damn shabby, and I can go into detail on the subject of which I am an expert, something that they do not like to hear about very much.

Yeah, I consider men and women to be equals. Which is why I don't agree with the idea that women are somehow innocent victims of church oppression, while men are power-hungry and abusive. There are jerks and wimps among men and women.

While it is harder in some situations to leave the church, I have developed less sympathy for those who stay and supposedly suffer for it. They are all getting something, if nothing more than maintaining their status. As herd animals, status drives most of our behaviors - how we dress, decorate our house, how much junk we buy, careers and income we pursue, etc.

Anyway, if people want to leave, they can. Might be some pain involved, but they could. I lost my status, almost lost my wife, etc.

Last week I ran across a letter in a drawer that my mom sent to my daughters at college in 2008. She was pleading for them to return to church so they could be happy. She also quoted my son as saying that I had brainwashed him against the church. First I had heard that. Apparently I am to blame for more than I'd realized.

Sign of a true man is taking the blame. Grow a pair, man up, etc.

One thing I've pondered recently as my dad ages is how little gratitude I had for him. I thanked my mom daily for cooking or whatever, but for some reason thanks was not required toward dad. He was just supposed to work for 60 hours a week at the lumber mill in life-threatening situations as a matter of duty. No gratitude required.

I am so thankful to my father. He might have forced me to go to church when I didn't want to. He might not have thought too much into the reasons I did not want to follow through with the callings I was given as a child (as deacon-priest, and the teacher's quorum president). Although at the moment I hated him for making me pass/bless the Sacrement otherwise I'd get my ass whuped when he got home from work. From him I learned that life expects you to do things that you won't always want to do, and can kick your ass for no good reason. I like to think that he was indirectly responsible for my inquisitive nature regarding the church. My dad taught me honesty to a fault, hard work ethic, and even family,though I had few happy experiences with the man, I witnessed his time with my (crazy tbm) mother(who I love still) and my sisters.

True, male and female both are marginalized in the Mormon cult.

Roles are objectified instead of people being humanized.

Every member is victimized, some are just better at it than others. Membership is a competition, like wild dogs fighting for scraps. Adults are not allowed to think for themselves and they pass that on to their children by telling them to be reverent and not have any opinions that differ from what is taught in church. I believe that church is damaging to every member of every age in many, many ways.

From my churchgoing experience, it is the women that adore the church the most.

generally, women are more tribal, so they are more attached to their (parasitic / predatory) support group which in this case is the MORmON secret (unmentionable) handshake social club

I think the OP is a given. That's how high-control cults work. You can't control the entire population by only controlling half. It absolutely sucks for men too. Mormon doctrine is absolutely as damaging to men as it is to women.

"That's how high-control cults work. You can't control the entire population by only controlling half."

There it is in a nutshell. Nicely said, Dogzilla. Everyone is controlled in the LDS church, but not necessarily in the exact same ways.

Totally agree on all the above.
A cult controls its members in in many ways but the most common progression is- firstly destroy a persons self worth or prey on those of low self esteem (plenty pre-programmed Morgbots around here). Then separate them from the non believers. Next, indoctrinate, gain control and assign some limited self worth, grow that dependence. Maintain that control via constant criticism and assignment of "callings" so there's no time to do anything unworthy. Finally deal with any strays, either by shaming & threatening those worthy of rehabilitation to get them back in the fold and paying that 10% or shunning and isolating those not thought to be recoverable.

Any of this sound familiar?