While in the Church we had multiple responsibilities, tithing, missions, spreading the gospel, etc.

Do I/we, now that I/we are out of the Church, have a moral duty or responsibility to share with others the falsehoods and lies that are being perpetuated to its members?

Do we owe this to our friends and family members who are still active, or to those we know who are investigating, or to society at large?

Wow - no responsibility at all. I guess I am off the hook:)

We all have the responsibility to promote truth and stand up for the underdog who's being harmed.

Unfortunately those who are in the church usually can't hear, can't let the truth about their beliefs ever seep into their minds.

You guys are here, telling your truth. What a gift the internet has given all of us!!

Current members: No responsibility unless they ask point blank and the spirit tells me they sincerely want to know, they're not just opening the subject so they can try to guilt me into coming back.

Potential converts: I feel like I have the responsibility to tell them in private (no confrontation in the presence of the person trying to convert) that Mormons dont tell you everything you need to know before baptism and ask if they would like more info. Only send info if they sincerely say they would appreciate it.

I live in Utah and worked for a national company. One of my Arizona based co-workers and I were having dinner during a regional conference, and she asked me if I could send her a copy of the BoM. She knew I was LDS - though I never informed her of my heretic and apostate status.

I said that I would but she first needed to know that it's a work of pure fiction, having no basis in fact, and that Joseph Smith was likely the 19th century's greatest conman.

She never sent me her address.

I don't do negative proselyting but when people ask for my input, I give them an honest accounting of Mormonism, something Mormons don't do.

It's our job to recover. That's our only responsibility relating to leaving the mormon church.

On the other hand, many of us like to give more than required which means we do what we can here and there to help others, but we do it for love and not as a requirement.

YAY, yes!!!

Sharing our insight and experiences on RfM is a useful means to discharge any such responsibility.

Welcome back, Rebel. I missed your sorry ass!

Seriously, I've struggled with this. My TBM wife has gone into bunker mode and back when we used to care enough to fight, I tried to convince her that Mormonism was a cult. No avail...she claimed she already knew about Joseph Smith's fucking around.

With my kids, the oldest got in on the Mom and Dad fighting about religion and is the strongest of my kids.

Because I live in Utah, I'm surrounded by all sorts of Mormons. I know TBMs, jack Mormons (still believe in parts but are inactive), those in transition, and those out.

My responsibility is to listen and support. It's my observation that leaving in Utah (family, friends, jobs) is often a slow, painful process. Being a good listener allows acquaintances to sort things out without having to defend or justify.

The internet seems to be most effective in deprograming possibly because lurkers don't feel immediate shame, judgments, or having to immediately respond.

Your thoughts?

I needed to take a break. Not sure how much I was contributing.

I too struggle with this.

My parents are 89 and 88 respectively. There is no way I would say anything about their faith at this point in their lives.

I have an older brother and two older sisters in their 50's and 60's who are TBM.

They know I have issues with the doctrine, but I think they are too afraid to really ask me.

So far, it seems like we have implicitly agreed to leave the subject alone.

My experience is that pushing your ideas on people does not help anyone.

Being open to share if invited, and to listen while someone processes seems to me to be a great gift, and enough.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2017 04:41PM by relievedtolearn.

IMO, we need regulations for religions just like any other business making claims about their products.

Just like taking Vitamin X will not make you young, smart and rich, neither will religion. Societal fraud protection and proof of claims made is getting worse. With technology, people are easier targets every year. They can't spend the time to check on every little thing.

In general, people do not appear to be savvy enough to recognize when they are being sold bunk (a fool and his money....).

Do we need to be vocal to warn them? I don't think it will do any good. You can't stop people from following pipe dreams and throwing their money and time away. Religion extracts a high price for the placebo it provides.

If you really care for someone, it's difficult to know if you would help or harm them by popping their faith bubble.

As a society, IMO, we should make it clear exactly what people are being sold and whether or not the claims have any factual backing.

However for individuals, I tend to want to protect their right to do whatever they think makes them happy as long as it does not impact me.

Good question. Education is the key probably.

It's not your duty or responsibility to warn those who don't want to be warned. It's your privilege to do so. That's what's so great about the law. It will take a good long time, but it will catch up to TSCC and put an end to their depraved travesty.

It's the regulatory agencies (what few we have left) who are supposed to protect consumers. I hope there is a reasonable balance out there possible.

Maybe I hope too much. The "intelligence" services love to have a brainwashing machine that pays for itself. They get recruits that money can't buy. The golden goose could be sacrosanct.

Thank you for the interesting comments.

One of many federal agencies is the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. It was created to make sure banks, lenders, and other financial companies treat you fairly.

I doubt LDS, Inc., fits this definition, but arguably should.

More interesting is another federal agency called the Bureau of Consmer Protection. It was created to take and investigate complaints about businesses that don't make good on their promises or cheat people out of money.

I doubt LDS, Inc., fits this definition, but arguably should.

Maybe there should be another federal agency called the Consumer Religious Protection Agency.

Our responsibilities are as individual as we are.

For me, I initially focused on my family. The number one best piece of advice I received on how to deal with my family was to respect their decision to continue to attend church... to not pound them with my recently discovered facts, to not insist that they listen to me, to not make them feel in any way wrong for doing what they've always done. I had started down this path, and got the predictable response. Where my wife had been a somewhat casual member, she started becoming more hard-core. She started making those TBM type rules for the kids where there had been none before -- like making my daughters attend seminary in order to maintain access to the car. I backed off.

I started focusing on being a better father -- without the church. I started focusing on being a better spouse -- without the church. I let my example pave the way. Here we are several years later, and my wife attends church maybe once a month. She leaves the kids home, since they don't want to go. My daughters are graduating high school this week, and haven't been to seminary in two years. They profess to be agnostic and atheist. They still have access to their car. My relationship and communication with my wife is better than it has been in many years -- as a side note, and probably TMI, I never knew that my wife was so, well, adventurous, to put it politely.

I have it a bit easier than a lot of you. My wife is a convert, so she doesn't have the pressure from her parents or other relatives to be a good Mormon, and to be married to one. She has respected my decision to leave the church, and she respects the kids' decisions to not go as well. And she has slowly but surely backed away from TBMness to near inactivity, and now has a better understanding of why I, and my kids, have issues with the church.

My immediate family, excepting my brothers, are still mostly TBM, but my parents only give me minor hassle. With family, I've learned that the best approach is no approach. You just gotta let them be, or they'll double down on the cultism in order to "set the example, and bring you back into the fold." So, I set my own example, and let it speak for itself.

I'm now turning my focus to my friends and coworkers. I don't know how effective I am, but my strategy is to combat the cult's thought stopping phrases with comments that provoke independent thought. For example, I had a coworker complaining about his workload as EQP in a very needy ward, I simply reminded him that he was a volunteer and could quit at any time, and stop sacrificing the needs of his family. The look on his face indicated that while he understood the facts, emotionally he couldn't process the possibility of turning down a calling -- and this is the real challenge, isn't it? A lifetime of emotional conditioning is not likely to be destroyed with some quick logic. Anyone who doesn't want to be changed, won't be. But maybe over time, with some repeated comments and some tactfully inserted facts, some minds can be opened.

I agree Humberto - sounds like a very mature and wise approach, not sure whether there is an individual or universal responsibility that we all share.

No. I've left the Church and no longer consider myself to be a religious person.

Just as I would hate them hounding me to come back to the Church, they would hate me for trying to talk them out of it.

It's no skin off my back if someone wants to be religious. If that's what they want, then they can have at it.

Live and let live, I say.

I cannot find a reason I would have any responsibility to anyone about my choice to change my mind about my religion.
It's a personal choice. Totally an individual choice.

We have religious freedom in this country. I respect that right.

The problem seems to be the level of annoyance non religious or non participating church people receive from the believers that seem to think they need to preach and instruct and hurrange others. I don't care what your religion says for you to do, I am not your responsibility!

This isn't about your choice to change religions, the question asked whether you had a responsibility to inform others of the lies and falsehoods that are still being perpetuated by the Church?

rebeljamesdean Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This isn't about your choice to change religions,
> the question asked whether you had a
> responsibility to inform others of the lies and
> falsehoods that are still being perpetuated by the
> Church?


I think I explained that I do not have any responsibility to talk to other people about their religious beliefs. Those are their personal rights.

To be absolutely clear, what I think are lies, are believed as truth by others. Again, not my place to interfere with their beliefs by faith.

I see all religions as God Myths, mostly about claims that are believed by faith and never about factual evidence. The whole idea of a deity is to believe by faith.

Any church, in my view, can teach their beliefs how they want and in most cases, it's a personal right. Much of religion is determined by the geography of our birth. Our heritage. That's how much of it is continued from generation to generation.

Again, I am not concerned about what someone thinks is a lie or a falsehood in religions. Truth, in religion , is subjective truth not some kind of scientific fact, for instance.

If people want to believe the Bible and BOM are literal, they can. I don't but I don't care of someone else does. I can understand how and why they make that assumption.

I hope I have made my point clear enough. :-)

You have made your point clear.

It was a rhetorical and philosophical question.

I don't have a fabulous answer, but I ask myself the question quite often.

The philosopher Dostoyevsky famously said, "We are all responsible for all".

If you believe that statement, like I do, it raises profound questions for each of us that has left the faith.

I'm going to incorporate that quote into a sign and hang it up in my house. Thanks, RebelJD.

Thank you Kathleen - the quote is powerful and haunting, if you believe it, and think about all its implications.

If anyone can come up with a quote more profound than that, in 6 words or less, I will frame it as well.

Heck, I may even tattoo it. :)

I feel like the only people I have a responsibility to is my own children. I have a duty to teach them what I know so they have the information to make good choices.

As far as everyone else, I don't think I have a responsibility to teach them the truth about the church unless they come to me looking for information. In that case, I would direct them to sources so that they can study for themselves. If I ever find myself in a situation where a Mormon is trying to push the church on me or others, I would personally feel a duty to speak up, but I don't think it's an actual responsibility that all exmos must take on.

I also want to live my life as an example to Mormons of an exmo who is tolerant, happy and kind in order to dispel some of the exmo stereotypes they may have. But again, this is just something that I personally choose and not something that I see as an exmo responsibility.

If people are interested in why I left, I will tell them, but I wont be an ex Mo missionary. I dont like being pressured and I assume others feel the same. Besides it isnt effective most of the time and pisses people off.I occassionally feel people out , but I wont inflict my views on others. Mormonism works for some people and their views are not really my concern. Live and let live.

It didnt work for me. I found it boring and lacking in spirituality.The loud meetings with kids running around , the business like meetings and ugly chapels were a turn off. Too many picky, pharisee like rules such as WofW and dress codes.Politically the church was way too conservative. I hated the priesthood ban for blacks, women as second class citizens and the Republican mindset. I also hated the emphasis on Joseph Smith, tithing, skirt and hair length, temples,etc. instead of Jesus and his teachings. If you are supposed to be Christian,Jesus should be more important than those things. If you are Christian celebrating Christmas and Easter with more than a mention and a hym. would be nice too. I just disnt like it or feel comfortable there.

Does that mean you didn't believe the JS story?

I probably did atnfirst because it wasnwhat Inwas taught, but it never resonated with me. Eventually, it fell apart.

Funny the idea of government regulations protecting us from the church fraud. Fox guarding the henhouse.

Like regulations aren't determined by lobbyists who pay to get what they want.

The only fraud bigger than religion is government. And paying for religion is voluntary, whereas paying for government is enforced with guns.

And BTW, people dependent on government to keep them safe become lazier and dumber. Which is what government wants to keep taking our money and giving it to corporations.

Only by education will frauds go away, but most are too lazy, or willfully want to believe in frauds. That is the whole idea of faith, to deliberately ignore evidence contrary to the beliefs they chose in advance.

I have little sympathy for those who refuse to see information they don't want to see. They prefer the safety of their gang or cult to freedom, which pretty much sums up our whole country.

One more thought - government is in control of our education system, so why don't they just teach that religion is a fraud?

Things that make you say Hmmm. Most people don't want freedom. They just want a more benevolent master. This is what our education system is set up for. They may be in the same boat as TSCC. They didn't count on the net.

I think we're all helping cut through the clutter together. I find some of the most profound philosophical thought going on in RfM. Real edgey stuff. It's a lot of fun. There's so much to our interaction with unfolding history. RfM is more than a support group. It's a vehicle by which the complexity of RfM is unraveled one unseemly thread at a time. Line upon line, the actual truth shall be revealed. The contrast between us and church leaders couldn't be more stark.

I really must sign in. Lousy typos.

I'm no fan of government regulations, but I'm no fan of corporations running amok either. We can only hope they keep each other in check. (Add in the problem of lobbyists and it gets more complicated.)

At least we get to vote for government changes periodically. Corporations (and businesses posing as religions) will take advantage of anything and everything they can to make profits. Reading Upton Sinclair's books should remind us what happens without regulations.

Religion has a vested interest in working with politicians to keep each other in power. Religions get breaks that are completely undeserved and should be treated more like the corporations they mimic.

BTW, religious people vote and are the majority, so no, school curriculums don't get to be honest about religion's claims.

I get the sense that you are not really sure what you believe or disbelieve.

I am similar in that regard. I am more confident in my disbeliefs and have very few solid beliefs.

Earlier you wondered, Rebel, how much you contributed here. A lot! Your questions are insightful and thought-provoking. Cheers!

^ what Boner said ^

I share Free Mans perspective. I feel that as bad as we may think the founding of Mormonism was with the lies, double standards, betrayals and illicit use of power there is a much more ominous evil lurking within the misuse and illicit usurpation of government power.

Waking from the Mormon illusion, looking back one realizes the ludicrousness of having given allegiance to a set of false notions supported and promoted by audacious fabrications, the foundational claims and fake testimonies.

Right and wrong can be understood independent of religious belief. The golden rule can be fostered and embraced independent of religious belief. There is much need for good to be done regardless of religious belief and perhaps we as postmos have a clearer perspective of what needs to be done than we did as tbms.

I'm not advocating for atheism, just the reasoned and tempered practice of religious belief where leaders lead by example. Also,it's my opinion that religion tends to distract from more important concerns.

Having spent almost 10 years looking at what goes on behind the curtains of government power has me much more concerned with the potential for evil by the misuse of government power than the abuse of religious power.

I don't feel we have any 'responsibility' but should always be 'frank' with our knowledge if the subject comes up.

I told my extended family why I left Mormonism. I even posted stickers around my area of town (a few around middle and high schools) giving people websites to find out the 'truth' of Mormonism. Most got taken down within a few weeks, others a few months. I have told a lot of people when I feel the topic of the 'true church' has come up.

My inactive sister was interested in returning and I told her to study about JS and the church from non church sources before she did that. Now she won't return as none of my siblings.

However, of my family I had little success. However, one inactive daughter appears she wants nothing to do with it for what I said and other reasons.

I am pretty bold when others bring up the church and try to tell them the 'truth' about Mormonism. It comes up sometimes.

Once I was talking on a ski tram and someone 'not a part of the discussion' got pissed because a 'child' was there and 'probably overheard' negative things about 'the one true church'. I apologized for being overheard.

I don't think it matters, because it's just not possible for we ExMos to convince any truly-believing member of the falseness of the church. To them we're nothing more than wayward sinners so anything we say will be written off as "anti-Mormon" even if it's based in verifiable history and fact -- hell, even if it's based on the church's own doctrines! At most we might be capable of adding a little weight to their shelves, but I think that the break has to come from the individual.

oneinbillions Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't think it matters, because it's just not
> possible for we ExMos to convince any
> truly-believing member of the falseness of the
> church.


Exactly. My TBM friend just says, "You have your truth and I have mine." Evidence doesn't matter, because it's believed to be false anyway.

My husband grew up under a military regime in South America. People were told when to go to bed, what they could eat on each day of the week, and a 10 pm curfew was enforced. If you were out past 10 pm, you had better be carrying a white flag; otherwise, you could be shot on the spot, no questions asked, before or after. My husband had to stay late at school often and spent many a night in the library there. TSCC reminds me of this regime. If anyone asks me questions about the cult, I'm gonna tell em' the truth and let them mull it over. My co-worker read someone's story on FB, and started asking me questions; I answered her questions with full on truth, not mincing anything. She is now out. Most of my family is out. Our oldest is still in, but we get along and respect each others' beliefs. Hopefully, they'll come around someday.

Just let me quote D&C 88:81:

"...it becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor."

In short, it is your responsibility to shout, "Mormons! Run!"

It is not incumbent upon any human being to go an a crusade to enlighten another human being. In fact it could be considered to be forceable interference into another human being's life.
To elucidate: In my opinion any human being may do anything that they want SO LONG AS they do not forceabley interfere with another human being's rights.

|/

desertman, I agree with you up to a point. I don't mind it much when jws or any other religion comes knocking on my door to share their message. I look at it as an opportunity to listen for a minute and perhaps share a little of my truth with them and send them on their way. No harm done and everyone is happy.

I think it is a good thing for people to discuss things that concern all of us and compare notes. A dialogue is good as we can learn from one another. Some people may not want to talk about religion and politics as they consider them personal or off limits. For those people that is fine, I won't discuss the taboo topics.

I think their are many important things we can learn from one another in these probing and truth seeking dialogues. You may have some important insight or knowledge that helps me or someone else to live better or solve a problem collectively or individually. It is one thing to learn to enjoy life and live it to its fullest but that can't always be the case without a wise and knowledgeable citizenry to create and preserve the means whereby it is possible.

“it becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor.”

Doctrine and Covenants 88:81

Well put - send that to Suzy Q.