I just read it again after Jeremy had done some updates a while back and I came away with the thought that this is an extreme case of overkill. Each page, separately, would be enough for me to conclude definitively that JS was a fraud. Could a TBM read it and simply dismiss it as an anti-Mormon screed?

Yes, they fall back on their "feelings", which are more powerful than facts and logic.

I'm aware of some who have read it and remain in the church.

Sure. They swallow all this:

https://www.fairmormon.org/conference/august-2014/reflections-letter-ces-director

The response at https://www.fairmormon.org/conference/august-2014/reflections-letter-ces-director response is a steaming pile of manure that is an embarrassment to anyone who believes the Church is true.

1. Its not even clear who wrote this article. Why are they hiding?
2. Unless it was officially blessed by the FP-12 as being doctrinal then this response is a waste of time for anyone to read.
3. This article spends a lot of time wondering whether or not to address the questions raised in this CES Letter. Of course any questions that people have should be investigated and answered with the truth :)
4. This article seems to refer to guys like Kevin Christensen and Jeff Lindsey a lot as if they are authoritative. What really matters is to know what Thomas S. Monson, Russell M. Nelson, Dallin H. Oaks, and others in the FP/12 who are living (or deceased) have to say about these matters.
5. This article misses the whole point. The best defense to any negativity about the Church is to just clearly demonstrate how fast that people can find out for themselves that the Church is the most honest and transparent organization ever. Just go to mormon.org, chat with the missionaries, and watch them get the official answers on everything. Now if they were to fail to answer everything honestly then it certainly wouldn't be the true Church. But give it a try :)

You nailed it.

Also (OK, I'm tooting my own horn) there's a thread that links to similar; one of the comments starts with "I have skimmed Letter to a CES Director. I have not read it in detail..." so you get the idea about how much actual rebuttal takes place in the rest of the comment, as opposed to "La la la FAIR covered it all I'm not listening" fingers-in-the-ear TBM-ishness.

Anyway, here's the link if you want to settle in with a cup of hot joe and read (I'm not exactly sure what Quora.com is but I'm sure it helps the HSA spy on you :-) :-) :-) ):
https://www.quora.com/For-believing-Mormons-brave-enough-to-read-the-content-of-Letter-to-a-CES-Director-how-can-you-disregard-the-provably-false-aspects-of-Mormon-theology-and-historicity-problems-of-the-Book-of-Mormon-itself

The CES letter was the main eye opener for me that TSCC is all fraud. IMO, I can't see how anyone with the ability to think and reason can possibly put blinders on and not see it! It also stumps me how in the world highly educated TBM people fail to educate themselves about this fraud.

My 66 year old brother and his wife just entered their mission as Senior Welfare missionaries. My bro is former Stake Prez counselor.

He and I have had several discussions over the years, and he says the issues of the CES Letter and others are likely true, but the power of Christ and the LDS Church's dedication to Christ not only "dissolve" the errors of past doctrine(s), but "legitimize" the fictional foundational stories such as Lamanites, priesthood restoration, BoM translation, you name it.

Face palm!

My brother has.
Though it has caused him to perhaps not doubt his doubts.
It's a story in progress...with no conclusion yet.

I dunno, the CES letter is a real test of faith. If you're super duper LDS enough, you can handle it. You might have to chug some Kool Aid to get it all down.

Yes. But, every time a TBM reads something well-research and written, more has to be added to "the shelf." Cheers to all! The Bone.

I think many can remain TBM but I guarantee most of these TBM's testimonies will remain rocky after it. They will never view the church in the same way and will have a clearer idea of its weak foundations and why many members leave.

Some TBMs assume the "church is true" in the same way they know 2+2 = 4. Anything that doesn't fit "the church is true" is a lie.

Now you can't get far on that if you're thinking seriously, but these types don't like to do that--especially if it is uncomfortable.

I left the church after I went through the temple. A few years later I read the CES letter and that was the cherry on top. I don't see how any rational thinking human being can go through the freak show that is the temple and then read the CES letter and still be a faithful Mormon. The temple itself screams the LDS church is a fraud, and the CES letter exclaims "Your right."

People believe what they want to believe and ignore whatever doesn't support it.

Yes, MORmONS can, because MORmONS really are that retarded which is why I call them MORmONS. My devoutly MORmON family, being a prime example of that kind of faithFOOLness.

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

Of course! Because the true believer only does one thing:

!! BELIEVE!!

Yes

I worked with a man who said he doesn't read church history because he doesn't want to lose his testimony.

Sorry all but can anyone enlighten me as to what the CES letter is?

Very curious.

Thanks!

It was a letter sent by a now former Mormon to a director in the church education system asking a number of questions relating to church history and doctrine.

Warning: it's long.


http://cesletter.com/Letter-to-a-CES-Director.pdf

wait... did you just say the CES letter is LONG? It's maybe 80 or so pages with mostly pictures and info graphics. If that's long I shudder to think what you would say about "No Man Knows My History"!

The CES letter is about 30 min to an hour's worth of reading at best, and so many TBM's still won't read it (cus it makes their feewings hurt)

Anyone who says they have read it completely and still stays mormon hasn't read it at all. They at best skimmed it.

Mormon challenge of the day:

Me - "So did you read the CES letter I sent you?"

TBM - "yeah I read it"

Me - "so what did you think about the late war and all the sentences the BOM directly plagiarized?"

TBM - "huh......late what???"

Me - "face palm"

CESLETTER.COM.

Google is your friend.

Thanks for the info. I am reading it now. yes it's long, but it's an easy read, well laid out and presented. I'm sure it won't take too long to get through it.

I checked the link posted from Quora.com and had to laugh but was also so irritated.

The person who wrote the 'article' admits to not having read it all, because it's So long! Oh no, it's too long, I can't read all of that! What kind of ridiculous attitude is that? And then the arrogance of assuming they know all about it without having read it? Enough to write an opinion article about it?

It makes me see clearly just how often Mormons (esp. leaders) ARE very ARROGANT! In the face of all reason and logic, they maintain this arrogance that they KNOW the TRUTH and it doesn't matter what you say to prove them wrong they still KNOW and they KNOW BETTER than anyone else!

It should make them look like ridiculous assholes but instead the followers revere them all the more and trust them all the more.

I was always amazed at how my family members would not read anything for themselves, do their own research, instead they would just 'trust' the ones who said they already did read ALL of the evidence against the church and 'proved' it was false,, even though most of them said they didn't actual read everything! And even though their own GA historians have admitted that the BoM is probably not based in any factual anything..

It's really mind boggling. But also interesting to me, even now, to watch my own emotions while reading the CES letter. Even though I am not surprised by any new information I might not have known before, it's still disturbing on this level that is very internal, the part of me that read the BoM for so many years and listened to and believed the stories. I can remember my child self fascinated with all of the tales (tall tales that they were) in that book. And listening to the dramatized recorded (audio) versions at bedtime. Falling asleep to stories of Joseph and his first vision and his 'amazing' life and 'bravery'. LOL. And that image, the painting of Joseph seeing God and angels. So profoundly affective. When I prayed as a child I imagined that picture and imagined God and Jesus the way they were portrayed in it. We all know by now you can tell a child anything and they will believe it, if you do it at the right age. But it's harder to understand those stories working for adults.

Though everyone was raised with some kind of fantastic notions about some kind of supernatural things, so maybe that explains it, maybe because it appeals to that child in us that likes to believe in those stories.

Interesting too, that I thought I had remembered different versions of Joe's vision. I thought I remembered him seeing an angel. But then I heard the two god version (God and Jesus). And it's interesting that they are refereed to as one godhead (trinity) and then separate and those contradictions. I remember wondering about that and being told they weren't contradictions because God and Jesus and the Holy Ghost are One in purpose, so they are one but also separate.

I remember as I got older in the 'church' and started to ask questions about scripture and just not getting any kind of satisfying answers. The teacher would do that annoying thing in Sunday school class, where he or she, after my question, would instead of thinking about it at all, just flip to references at the back of the book (BoM for example) and look up the subject of my question, flip to another scripture, read it and that was my answer. Though it wasn't an answer at all it was just another cryptic 'scripture' passage that had nothing to do with my question! But instead of seeing that I still had a question, I was ignored and everyone in the class, esp. the teacher, seemed perfectly satisfied with their 'answer'.

I can see now how just reading 'scriptures' made us 'feel good' because it all sounded very important and we were trained (brain washed) to feel good when reading and quoting them. Just like the Pavlo dog experiments. We were conditioned to be rewarded when reading scriptures. Reward could be as simple as a parent or teacher or peer praising us. And esp. powerful was parental praise in Mormon families where neglect is so rampant. I know it was in our family and that getting any kind of attention, esp. positive from our parents was a miracle in and of itself.

So I can see how there is still that conditioning in me, that still respects scripture passages (or something that SOUNDS like them) as authoritarian (from God) and I can see the emotional responses to positive images of Joe Smith.

I am not controlled by that conditioning anymore, since I can see and acknowledge it. But it does make me see how TBMs would respond to something like this CES letter. It is just too disturbing for them to take in that kind of information. It's too contrary to their conditioning. And the conditioning involved a LOT of indoctrination about the cleverness of the 'devil' and so 'anti-mormon' literature in trying to dissuade 'righteous, god's chosen ones' away from the 'true gospel'.. I can see how I would have reacted back in the day and I would not have been able to read the whole thing because it would have made me sick. Because it's like something that does not compute threatening to destroy my whole system, my whole programing. And then the computer (myself) doesn't know what it is anymore without the programming. It's just too frightening.

You have to be ready to hear it or it will just scare you away.

I wish it were easier because I'd love to send this to my siblings and try to help them see what's really going on. But I know they just wouldn't be able to handle it and instead would vilify me as trying to 'attack' them and that would be the end of it. Everyone enraged at ME. And probably I would be completely shunned and cut off from them. Maybe that wouldn't be a bad thing, but for me with my sisters it would break my heart.

So I probably won't send it to them. But I hope that they'll some day want to know. Esp. for the sake of their poor kids. I hate to think of my lovely nieces being made to feel ashamed and guilty over nothing and learning to not value themselves.

Anyway thanks for posting this. It's still helpful for me to read it. It's so well laid out, it's good to see the things I have found out laid out like this and then to have more info I didn't know about thrown in. It's amazing work.

Thanks!

It's amusing that the same people who say the CES letter is too long to read are probably the same people who would wade into a Nibley work of gobblygook and ooh & ahh all over it. Or they'd say that the BoM should be read every day, and when things are found that don't make sense (either within the book itself or when compared to church doctrines outside of it), they go for an attitude of "It needs a deep reading" and "You need to take a nuanced approach."

So much of being Mormon has to do with culture and heritage rather than any real truth or even a solid belief and testimony of the church. So I think it's very possible for a TBM to read the CES letter and completely dismiss it. Doing anything else could turn the world of a TBM upside down. Not everyone has the ability or desire to reinvent their lives. It's often easier to ignore facts or defend the indefensible than it is to come to terms with truth.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2017 07:36PM by want2bx.

Eventually I reached a point where I did not care if the Church was true or false. I became to realize that regardless of if the Church was completely true or completely false or some blend of the above: 1) my family life would be completely enmeshed within it as long as I was involved with my wife; and, 2) the Church was a parasitic organization that would claim everything it could from your life. Given these 2 facts I had to be around the Church to restrain its demands on our family because my wife was incapable of asserting herself.

Yes, many do. And it isn't just feelings. Often it is having read more information than is included in the document, or going to original sources and learning that what was interpreted critically can also be read neutrally or even as supportive of a faithful interpretation. Sometimes it is acknowledgement that no matter what we think we know about any historical fact, it is always subject to additional information, and deference to those who actually knew JS IRL. And in a few cases it is additional research coming to light.

Not if they take the time to really examine what is in the CES letter with an open mind.