I find it amazing to read peoples posts. They attack Mormonism as a fraud at the same time that they are defending their religious beliefs. Is there really any difference between Mormonism and any other Christian religion? Mormonism is about 200 years old and Christianity is about 2000 years old. The records kept during the time of the advent of Mormonism is superior to what was the standard 2000 years ago. I doubt if the advent of Christianity was more proximate in time that it would be any harder to disprove than Mormonism. Of course, we have the supposed official record contain in the Bible. The argument Christians love to throw around is the historicity of the Bible as compared to the Book of Mormon. Admittedly, the book of Mormon is a work of fiction. But simply because the Bible uses historical names, places, etc. doesn’t make it true. Anyone want to argue about the accuracy of the Odyssey (seen a Minotuar lately)? The Odyssey is full of historical facts presented in an allegorical fashion, couldn’t possibly be that stylistically the Bible and the Odyssey are one?

Mormons have Jesus. Christians have Jesus. Mormons have God. Christians have God. Ok, the Mormons have God as a corporal being. The Christians have a different definition. Does that somehow make a fundamental difference? It reminds me when we were kids and we would argue if chocolate ice cream was superior to strawberry ice cream. You might like one better than the other but that doesn’t change the fact that they are both ice cream.

One of my favorite God arguments thrown at people like myself is that I can’t prove that there isn’t a God. You know, the lame argument about proving a negative. When you or I are accused of a crime the accuser is tasked with proving guilt. Likewise, if you propose a proposition it falls on the person offering the proposition to prove its truth and not on me to prove that is isn’t true. To further illustrate my point, if I encounter someone claiming to be Napoleon, it’s not up to me to prove that he is not Napoleon. You might find that absurd because of course Napoleon died many years ago, but how about if that person claims he was recently raised from the dead (sound familiar).

I recently read a post that argued that Mormonism had merit because it taught family values, health values, etc. Ok, what Christian religion tells you to kill your children, hate your wife, beat up your neighbors, and have intercourse with anyone that you can persuade? Of course, none do, therefore that argument is ridicules applied to a Christian. But what I find so incredibly hateful is what it suggests about me. I’m an atheist, but without religion in my life I’m hopelessly without values. May I propose that I have greater sense of values because I live an honorable life without having to have it preached to me every Sunday. I’m self-directed rather than steered.

People may wonder about my post and possibly see an element of anger. I would have to admit they’re right. But what people often miss is the source of my anger. I’m mad because I was coned, bamboozled, taken by the Mormons. I’m not a genius but when the paperboy misses the front porch I know where to look. I don’t ever want to be coned into the cryogenic life after death con again. At least not until hell freezes over.

To quote Boingo the Bunny, "You've been hoodwinked, baby!". I wouldn't say Mormonism teaches those bad behaviors. It does give a free pass to leaders who engaged in them because, ahem, we don't question leaders.

TSCC talks out of both sides of its mouth. That makes it duplicitous. It teaches both love and hate. It gives you reasons to hate and despise yourself and others. Light up a cigarette around a TBM and smell the contempt. Over a f-ing smoke. Or a cup of coffee or a brewski, both of which the early saints as well as JS and BY freely partook in. I mean, why wouldn't you?

Or the world class sexual repression. All those guys fighting epic battles in their heads, and somehow the dick wins and there's hell to pay. That's such a mean thing to do to a human being. Making people beat themselves up for being human is disrespectful to humanity. But maybe that's the crux of the problem. Joseph despised humanity and chose to take it for a ride.

Joe senior didn't believe in religion. Maybe junior figured out early that it was all made up, and if they could do it, he could do it. He turned people's idealism and trust against them by using them as props in his control schemes. Because that's what you do when you despise humanity.

That's not to say the modern church is anything like the early church. So much has changed, but the founding principles haven't. The cult's tactics have evolved in a way that makes them harder to detect, but no less dangerous. Subjugate and dehumanize with a soft voice and a smile on your face. Yeah, real virtuous.

There are smoking guns in Mormonism that are not present in some other Christian churches due to the time difference. It is also impossible to disprove liberal Christiqnity using sciencevthe Bible because liberal Christians dont take the Bible literally. There are huge differences in beliefs among various Christian sects.Some aremprettyneasy to debunk andnsomenare very difficult if not impossible

Totally agree! What a lot former Mormons don't understand is that Christians do not make a lot of the same claims Mormons do and by and large don't pretend to have all the answers. Huge difference!!

For an atheist, there is no difference.

It's all a sham, one sham is no different than another.

For believers, there are HUGE differences.

They are all franchising God, but they have different menus. I don't know about the other joints, but the Mormons make a mighty fine shit sandwich.

Mormonism is provably false. You are correct that it is more difficult to prove/disprove Christianity due to the long timeframe. This doesn't change the fact that you can definitively disprove Mormonism. And as Bona Dea points out, Christians on the moderate to liberal end of things are not Bible literalists anyway. I was not, having been raised Catholic.

The difference with Mormonism is that it is a high control denomination, similar to the JWs. You can walk away from other denominations (usually) with little consequence. I never had to fear that my family or friends would shun or avoid me for leaving the Catholic church. I never had to worry that they would constantly try to persuade or undermine me about my religious choices.

Most other denominations would be appalled at the amount of time Mormons are involved with church -- three hours on Sunday, time-consuming callings, FHE, VT, HT, Seminary, mission, etc. They would also consider the constant visits, texts, and phone calls to be ridiculously intrusive.

Most other churches let the parishioner decide how much money that they will donate (I've read previously that the average for American churches is 2.6%.) The churches do not demand 10% while holding essential ordinances over your head if you do not pay up. The mainstream churches would be *ashamed* to take money from a poor person who needs every cent to survive. They would not dream of leaving family members out of weddings because they can't pay up.

Finally, it comes down to values. What comes first, family or church? If your spouse might consider divorcing you due to a loss of faith, then you are likely in a high-control group.

Yes, there is. Something I admit only grudgingly.

The similarities are in the "believing stuff without supporting evidence" category. And all too often, believing stuff that's demonstrably false. Both kinds of "faith" are common in all religions.

But the differences can be even more stark.

Mormonism is an especially nefarious mind-body-control cult. The kind that sucks the life and thought out of its members, takes their money, controls every aspect of their lives. And does little to no good in return.

While there are other christian sects that fit on various places of a "harmful cult" scale, there are also christian sects (and individual christians) at the other extreme -- those whose religion doesn't manifest as control, or exclusivity, or in a desire to run everyone's life. There are kind, gentle people whose faith motivates them to be good friends, good community members, to help others, and to live good lives. That certainly doesn't apply to ALL christian sects or all christians, but there surely are lots of 'em.

And that's the real difference.
It's *hard* to be a good person and a mormon. The church's doctrines and demands for obedience can turn good people into judgmental, narcissistic asshats. It *encourages* that kind of personality. It doesn't have toleration for those who wish to simply live a good, honest, tolerant life among the rest of the world.
While there are plenty of christian sects that not only tolerate those kinds of people, they help *produce* them.

I'm with you on the nonsensical beliefs part.

I'm not with you on the rest. At least not overall.

Mormonism is actively harmful and controlling. That's different from many other religious sects. Very different.

You won't get any argument from me. Once I realized the Mormon church was a fraud I began looking at other churches under the assumption that had been engrained in me by parents, church, and society that you had to worship Jesus and you needed a church to do that.

I studied them all, and could not help but come to the conclusion that they were all the same.The further you stand back the more they blur into one. The Jesus concept no longer made any sense at all. I needed something more than hearsay. So I looked at Eastern religions. Even they began to meld into the rest.

Different details like you said, you can pick chocolate, vanilla, or caramel, but they are all the same cream, sugar, and egg underneath. So, the secret is to quit looking at the sprinkles on top or the nuts and marshmallow sauce and look at the main ingredients.

I had no choice but to admit to myself that there was no reason to believe any of it other than just wanting to. I didn't want to believe anything anymore. I wanted fact and evidence or nothing.

Religion is the original house built on sand.

^^^^This.

I even checked out Wicca/paganism and went to a public-invited Samhain ritual one Halloween. You're not allowed to just stand back and watch; you have to participate or they ask you to leave. So I participated. There was singing and chanting and some women going on and on about a bunch of goddesses, only half of whom I'd even heard of. Then there was a cookie and a shotglass of cider. And then another stupid song, and maybe some handholding/hugging.

As I walked away, I thought, "Man, that felt just like church, only outside under a huge oak tree."

And that's the last time I did anything remotely related to religion. It's all snake oil. It's just a question of which snake oil you want to place your faith in, or none at all.

Done & Done, couldn't agree with you more. It takes a certain amount of introspection and intellectual honesty to arrive at that conclusion. Your path was identical to mine.

IMHO, all revealed religions (including both Mormonism and Christianity) are topological equivalents (consider how a teacup shares the same topology of a donut); they all share the same core properties (divine revelation vs. reason), though each have their own unique distortions given that each religion has been molded and forged under unique social, political, and historical circumstances.

I would like to ask all true believers in God some questions. Have you ever known a child that had an imaginary friend? In reference to your conversation with the child were you persuaded? Do you still believe in Santa Claus? Have you every met a truly delusional person? Do you believe what they claim? Do you believe in God? Can you see a pattern?

I am not religious, but I find that simplistic and rather insulting. Believe what you like and dont insult people who dont agree with you.

I believe in God. I call myself a Christian. I have been in local churches that I would say are pretty close to mormonisim in terms of being very controlling, petty, patriarchal, legalistic.

I do not believe that is Biblical. There congregations that are not like this.

Specific differences I see between what I call Biblical Christianity and Mormonism are these:

Mormons have to earn their way back to God the Father.
In Biblical Christianity, Jesus did the earning; we accept it. Period.

I have been to several baptisms of 8-year-olds. In each one there has been a little lecture by some grown-up about how the child must be worthy or the Holy Spirit will leave him. That is absolutely not Biblical. (When we mess up is when we REALLY need the Holy Spirit with us.) Jesus said He would never leave nor forsake us. I believe that through the constant presence of the Holy Spirit, He does what He said He would do: not leave us.

The new birth is real. It doesn't mean being baptized into a religion. It means that a person's spirit is born from above, conceived by the Word of God (that the person receives--that is, takes into himself)

The "anointing" is a real thing. In Isaiah 10:27 the anointing is described as setting free from bondage. It comes from God. It is not a mantle of authority to tell other people what to do, or what is true.

Jesus came to set people free, and heal them. As far as I can figure out, in Mormonism, bondage is built into every bit of the system, and tragedy, illness, etc. are part of the experience we are here to have bodies for: ie, part of God's plan. Adam and Eve's eating of the fruit was actually heroic, because only then could God get his plan in action.

This means that God Himself gave contrary commands that could not both be fulfilled. That is evil. And it is NOT Biblical.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2017 10:19AM by relievedtolearn.

relievedtolearn Wrote:
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> This means that God Himself gave contrary commands
> that could not both be fulfilled. That is evil.
> And it is NOT Biblical.

I almost don't want to point out to you that the "god" character in the bible contradicts itself hundreds of times.
But I will anyway. :)
So while the differences between mormonism and other "christian" churches are largely correct, it's not correct that "god" giving contrary commands isn't "biblical." It most certainly is.

Yes! Mormonism is the only true church with living prophets to lead and guide you. (dripping with sarcasm)

Personally, I think almost everything that is wrong in our society is/was caused by religion.

Dear relievedtolearn, I honestly and sincerely respect your views. You made a logical and cogent reply. I’m not sure to what degree you are endorsing the Bible, but I would doubt you could be a Christian without endorsing the narrative of the New Testament. So let me point out some problems.

One poster replied by saying that they view the Bible as allegorical, having been raised Catholic. There is a guy, I believe in Tennessee, who opened a theme park with a “replica of Noah’s arch”. Obviously, that individual is a literalist. With a long historical perspective that goes into modern times there have been raging conflicts between Protestants and Catholics about the interpretation of the Bible resulting in many deaths. Judaism accepts much of the Old Testament. Moslems accept the Bible as a holy book though not of the same authority as the Koran. The Old Testament is the document that introduces God. The New Testament introduces Christ. I’m assuming that this is the foundation of your belief? Having said that how can you have confidence in any of your beliefs if there appears to be no consensus on any particular interpretation? I can imagine your reply. You have confidence in your interpretation based upon own personal experiences and those of the people that you associate with.

Remember the Noah theme park? Do you believe that that person would invest millions had he not also been convinced of the truthfulness of his interpretation? How about the visitors? Wouldn’t you suspect that the majority of visitors to that theme park are of the same mind? How can you have faith in a narrative that is subject to so many interpretations? Citing that alone, wouldn’t it be fair to say that the Bible by any rational standard should be abandoned, if not just outright banned and that any belief generated by that book should, by the very least standard, be considered highly suspect?

By contrast let’s highlight another highly controversial book, Darwin’s “Origin of Species”. The blood that scientists have spilled is purely of the “ink” variety. They have been at it for about 250 years. I know of no specific deaths attributable to that text. By using an evidence based approach that community has started to arrive at some sort of consensus. How many years have the various religious factions been at it with the Bible – are they close to consensus? Would you rather be one of the causalities of the Bible or one of the collaborators that discovered DNA?

Yep. There are definitely controversies about interpretation.

And yes, what I believe is very much tied to my own experience as well as Bible.

I can't imagine anyone thinking they understand all there is to understand, about the Bible, or about God.

That would be true of the natural world as well, by the way. We know we know some things--because they are repeatable.

Law of lift and law of gravity come to mind as something we understood part of for a long time, then came to understand more of-----I'm sure you also could think of lots of examples.

Although I'm wary of saying it, because of where it goes in Mormonism, but I do believe that the Bible is true as it is translated (interpreted, and understood) correctly. May turn out a lot of it is acutally meant to convey truth without being literally factually true. I don't know about that.* It is true that the Bible is a very old composite library. How much do we miss because it is a translation, not only from other languages, but also other eras and cultures than our own. How much do we take for granted.

So, bottom line, I have enough experience to say, I do believe in God; I love the Bible, and reading it, for me, has to be a dialog every day. My Bible's are full of marginal notes, usually starting with "God?" Then answers as I find them later.

I use several translations when I am trying to understand something. Sometimes someone will teach or just share insight they have about some passage, and it becomes a big "aha" for me.

I am not bothered by the fact that there are different denominations, even whole religions, based on The Book.

For me, it's all about relationship, using the Bible, which I do believe God had a hand in the writing of, to understand Him better.

I do believe that Jesus is both God and Man, and that the Jehovah of the OT is therefore also Jesus. So how does one reconcile things like the wiping out of Jericho and Ai with "God is Love?" for example. I don't. I say, "God?"

So also similar to what I've heard people say on this board, I have lots of what I call back-burner questions. They are open questions; things I don't claim to know answers to. I do expect that there are answers; I just don't know them yet. I'm ok with that, most of the time. Some things are pretty urgent---because they impact people in real time. If they impact me, I expect answers, and so far, have always received them.

*Here is an example of something I thought of one day and have wondered about ever since. Adam and Eve ate the FRUIT of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Fruit. Fruit is a product of something--of a seed and a process. They took it into themselves. So this is good as a myth (in the traditional sense of that word as something that conveys truth in a form that may not be literally, factually what happened.) Or, hey, maybe it really did happen that way.

About Darwin--I think what he wrote (superceded although it is) was both a reflection/culmination of his times---and also, I do think it has caused deaths in the sense that a philosophy about where life comes from, and what value individual lives have emerge from the worldview.

I can't argue with you about being part of the scientific community that has produced so much that is good. It absolutely has.

Naturally since I believe in God Who is Good, and is Love, I also believe that whatever is real in the universe if what it is, and science learns to see it, measure it, harness it----none of that takes away from God. As a matter of fact, one of my favorite expressions is "I'm so glad God invented----air conditioning, telephones, airplances----" Because if it exists, and people figured it out, then He had a hand in it.

That's may world view. I like it; it makes me happy. If the One I choose to follow talked about caring for every person as valuable, forgiving over and over if necessary when there's been offense, taking care of widows and orphans and the stanger dwelling in your land---having just weights and measures, etc. Hey, that's good stuff, and I enjoy living in a world where those values have been established as good.

Sometime for fun, just to hear the words and feel the loveliness of them, read Isaiah 58 and Isaiah 61 with Luke 4:16-21. Aaaah. Yep, makes me happy. =)

I won't argue with you that beliefs about the Bible (Koran, etc) has also caused deaths. Apparently some of my ancestors fled their burning farm during the days when protestants and catholics were busy killing each other for disagreeing. Sheesh.

Thank you for your kind and respectful willingness to ask questions and discuss. I appreciate it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2017 08:21PM by relievedtolearn.

You do know that the Ark theme park is going broke

Religion wants money. Everything else is window dressing. A leader would like to be paid for leading, no matter the cause. A weak & frightened person wants to be soothed by the leader and is willing to pay. With Mormonism, many follow to insure inheritance. Money.

Oh God, hear the words of my mouth.

Christianity - Professional, paid clergy
Mormons - Amateur dipshits that give up all their free time so the Mo can build shopping malls.

Christianity - Follows the bible
Mormons - We Have Our Own Book (and its better)

Christianity - Church property and services free and open to all
Mormons - No Temple For You (unless you've paid your 10%)

Christianity - Embraces all colors, creeds and sexual orientations (generally)
Mormons - You best not be black or gay.

Christianity - Encourages marriage between a loving couple
Mormons - Need more than one wife? Not a problem. Under age? Not a problem either. God enough for Jo Smith, good enough for me.

Christianity - We're here if you need us
Mormons - Round up the Sheeple! Send out the Mishies to go bother everyone.

Need I continue?

best not be gay, black, or a woman.

Ok slcdweller, I don’t get what you’re trying to say. I admit, I don’t know how to spell “Ark”, but you seem to have trouble with facts. Let’s start with you professional clergy comment. The only difference between the Mormons and other denominations is that their paid ministry starts at a higher level. Their Salt Lake “Vatican” is full of individuals that are being paid for their ministry. Can we agree or do I have to make a list? Other church’s have paid clergy on a more local level however they are ALL depend on the free ministerial services of their congregations. Are you familiar with the Baptists? They have a lot of people working for free.

The Mormons have their own book -agreed. But I don’t remember going through a Sunday without the text of the Bible being quoted. Granted they have their own interpretation, but who of the various denominations doesn’t?

As to church property being open to the public. I have attended high school graduation ceremonies using Mormon facilities. I seen church recreational facilities used by other denominations. I don’t know if this is currently true, but I have used Mormon facilities for polling stations. I have seen the Tabernacle used for many secular events including the centennial celebration of statehood.

Your comment about Christianity embracing all color, creeds and sexual orientations - you have to be kidding. Either you don’t read the news or you are excluding the Midwest and the South.

Your comments about marriage has some merit, but if your talking strictly perversion by your reference to “Jo Smith” then again I reference the current events. It would be hard to quantify the difference between the issues of women and the abuses of children. I think it would be fair to state that they are plenty of perverts to go around for either side.

The last one about missionaries really surprises me. How can you be unaware of what happened in the Americas and what is currently going on Africa. Mormons pale in comparison. The Baptists currently have ministries (missions) in Utah.

I restate my original premise - show me the difference?

So anyone can wander in the Temples?

Hindus have temples that only Hindus can enter.
And a whole lot more that only men can enter -- no women.

Buddhists have temples that only men can enter -- no women.
And others that nobody but buddhist "clergy" can enter.

If you're a woman, try going to Mt. Athos in Greece. Not going to happen. Same with Mt. Omine in Japan.

Try "wandering" in anything but the front area of St. Peter's. See how far you can get.

There are literally thousands of religious places around the world where only "members" can get in, or only male members, or only members of some high-status place in the religion's hierarchy. It's not just mormons.

When they hold an open house - yes.

Other religions at least act like it's a religion (vs. a chore or a burden).

> I don’t get what you’re trying to say. I don’t know how to spell... you seem to have trouble with facts. The only difference between the Mormons and other denominations is...
> I restate my original premise - show me the difference?

If you have need to be shown the difference perhaps you might return to Sunday school or sacrilegious meating. Nobody is here to educate you. Try MormonThink? Or argument. Think

Dear Difference, when logic and reason fails - bluster is always a good substitute.

Birdman:> "I don’t get what you’re trying to say. You seem to have trouble with facts. The only difference between the Mormons and other denominations is...? > - show us the difference and you'll learn yourself.

You're the one that wants to know/argue

No difference - attend a real church and then tscc. Stay if you like it.

Birdman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dear Difference, when logic and reason fails - bluster is always a good substitute.
>

Rather than substitute reason, in your fail, you scarcely muster your lackluster bluster.

The one defining common denominator for all is selling a product that doesn't exist. Forget your MLMs, Pyramid schemes, and weight loss miracle pills. That's kid stuff. Get people to buy the invisible, non-existent God you are peddling. THAT is accomplishment.

But wait. There's more. You can customize your God to your liking. He doesn't make an appearance. No peeking in from the heavens to reveal himself, define himself, lay down his own rules. No,no no. You get to do that! And, you will always be His chosen people. Guaranteed. What a product! Heaven is yours!

I get the fact that there are some angry posters out there. So you’re angry that I have challenged the validity of your beliefs. You have no problem challenging the Mormon beliefs, but you fail to see the parallel between Mormon beliefs and your own Christian beliefs. You make distinctions were they are so nuanced as to make no difference. You make distinctions between red, green, yellow apples. To a apply grower true distinctions, to a person trying to decide between apples and oranges – no distinction. If I was trying to decide between Catholics, Baptist, Lutherans, etc., these nuanced differences would be relevant. I’m past all of that. God is a superstition, and the Bible is fundamentally flawed and inaccurate. None of you would accept the technology of the 1800’s much less that technology of 2000 years ago, yet the ramblings of Biblical oracles are so relevant as to be your sole guide in these modern times. You are defending a philosophy that states the mental disease is a possession by the devil. Epilepsy is a possession. The Earth is the center of the Universe. Women should be killed for adultery. Children should be killed for disobeying their parents. Women should be killed for disobeying their husbands. Homosexuality is a choice rather than of a biological origin, the persecution of individuals for their beliefs rather than their conduct.

The 10 Commandments coming from the Old Testament are valid, but some of this other stuff that I mentioned, that is not to your liking, somehow is now rejected as being no longer valid. Is there hypocrisy here?

I don’t really care what you do with your lives. I just thought that having once made a mistake that you might want to be a little more circumspect, before falling for another.

You come across as quite arrogant and it seems you do care or you wouldnt be so upset. Just a thought.Also, there are real differences between some Christian sects and Mormonism. That doesnt make them true, but the difference do exist and that is the point of this thread.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2017 03:59PM by bona dea.

Birdman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Is there really any difference between Mormonism and
> any other Christian religion? Mormonism is about
> 200 years old and Christianity is about 2000 years
> old. The records kept during the time of the
> advent of Mormonism is superior to what was the
> standard 2000 years ago.

Bingo!

(1) There is WAY more evidence of the bogusness of Mormonism due
to it's recent inception

(2) Christianity is a broad movement, not a centralized cult. I
spent three years singing in a Presbyterian choir. Never once
did I hear of obeying the leaders, "duty" to go on missions to
get more members. Even getting more members was never
mentioned. No "worthiness interviews." There were no special
secret worship services that you needed a recommend in order to
attend. The difference was striking.

Yes, there is a huge difference. Religion may hold no value for you and that's just fine - it's not everyone's cup of tea. But neither is marriage. Saying all men are bad because someone is in a bad marriage with a controlling, narcissistic jackwagon though is completely misguided. If you don't want to be married - fine. But don't say all guys are jerks. If you don't want to be Mormon - fine. But that doesn't make all religious belief systems equally evil.

Mormonism very much fits the profile of mind control relationships and that is what makes it so much worse than other religions. It also has some serious narcissistic practices too. If you don't think it's worse than other religions, then you aren't fully informed about how bad it is.

That being said, there ARE other religions as bad as Mormonism. But not all religions are equally bad, just like all marriages aren't equally bad. Some are infinitely worse/abusive than others.

I think your marriage analogy is excellent. Do you know why the term on the "rebound" was coined in reference to marriage? Because people tend to fall for the same situation over and over again. Be honest, how many individuals do you know that leave an abusive relationship to only find themselves in a similar situation once again.

When people prey on people's fear for power, control, influence or wealth, I don't know, I wouldn't call it "good", probably a better term would be "evil"?