Because if she stays unwell, she will drive you effing crazy and you might have to watch her create nutcases out of her kids

OR

Because if she gets better she will get rid of you in a terrible breakup

My advice to all ya'all starting to recover from this crazy "mormonism," learn about alcohol and how it affects people, families, individuals. I'm serious, really look into it, do your homework. I just feel the 'dry-culture' of the CULTure I grew up within in Northern Utah created an ignorance about alcohol that has got me burned a few times. "Naivete"

Just hurting. Could use to hear from other folks who know about co-dependence and folks who have grown up with an alcoholic parent, or end up with an alcoholic spouse. It's terrifying.

It's so funny. She came across for months as a perfectly-behaved angel. But then one day she SNAPPED. Codependents are the most difficult, controlling, hostile, barking, tyrannical, impossible to talk to or reason with, monster drama queen-zillas...
But on the flipside they can be very very loving. But if they are being very loving, WATCH OUT, cuz she might be tagging you as her next victim who needs to be rescued or tortured. Ugg

I've found Mormonism to be a religion of excuses. It gives good people an excuse to be good and bad people an excuse to be bad. It's that second group you have to watch out for.

I feel your pain. You've come to the right place. Whatever Mormonism has done to you, there are people here who can top it. I'll let the experts take over.

I've put codependents through hell by being who they wanted me to be. Coddling their pathological insecurities. I wasn't the cure. I was part of their disease. People who can't live with themselves can't live with you either. They may self medicate, which is where alcohol comes in.

I agree with Babyloncansuckit that alcoholism is self-medication. It could be for anxiety, depression, low self esteem, or a combination of factors. It is essential to address the root cause.

I'm a female ACOA. Yes, I agree. Without counseling and a strong drive to heal the damage done, one does not usually escape behaviors that easily become life-long dysfunctions.

The "snap" you describe sounds like something that is outside of or additional to codependence. Codependents are often aces at passive aggression and people-pleasing behaviors. You are not likely to see a snap. Snapping violates all laws of self-protection for an ACOA.

The things that happened to me as a child were criminal, and I was the only one who could rescue my mind and spirit. I had to create my own "safe space" in which to heal. In no way am I diminishing the love and support I received from others, but the will to heal had to be - and remains - my own.

I agree that sucking in a white knight to ride to the rescue is full-on ACOA behavior, but that does not lead to the overt abuse you describe. ACOA codependence it is more predictive of covert machinations and manipulations.

https://psychcentral.com/lib/symptoms-of-codependency/

The mercurial emotional violence you describe is a loud warning, a big red flag. Please don't underestimate or dismiss the danger that a nut (word choice because I'm not a doctor) can pose just because she's female nut. Many a woman is in jail for harming or killing a mate or ex-mate. If a man behaved as you describe, no apology would do; he would he in the "threat" category.

I can't offer any diagnosis of your ex-nut, other than that she sounds more like the alcoholic than the dependent.

The greater questions for you now, dear poster, are any thoughts that might lead you to believe that you might save someone from herself. Clear those away like any other bad idea. I don't care how alluring this particular female may become (again), she has revealed her true nature to you, and you should believe her "honest" revelation.

Whatever her maladies, run like hell, and watch your back. Be glad that she revealed the danger she presents to your peace, sanity and life. Take the gift as a vaccine against whatever mental, emotional and possibly physically violent infections she wished to spread to you. You now know that she is a type of "Typhoid Mary."

Run like the wind, be free.

ForeverFree Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The "snap" you describe sounds like something that
> is outside of or additional to codependence.

> The mercurial emotional violence you describe is a
> loud warning, a big red flag.

Yes, her emotional assaults on me have been vicious. She will just create some issue out of just one little comment I made and torture me about it for weeks sometimes. It's like "jekyll and hyde" the difference between the woman I loved, and this monster she becomes when she's angry. Her ex-husband wrote in some divorce papers that she was alcoholic and abusive to him too, though she denied that, and I never saw her drink much. But sometimes just a drink or two would make her speak and behave a bit surprisingly- like out of nowhere one time with just a drink or two she started hysterically begging me to get her pregnant. I was very scared at that because she knew I didn't want that.

She will rave and get a bit psycho about problems she has with a family member, her kids' teacher, or a pet political topic, and I could never get in a word, she just kept raging-- I just always told myself that I was safe, I'd never be the target of her rage because, well, I saved her life, to be honest. She'd be so screwed if I had not come along. But now she has all her weapons trained on me, emotionally-speaking. I will say, "please stop this, after all I've done for you, why do I deserve this." But she just keeps raving.

I loved her because I enjoy her personality, her interests-- we have a long history, over 20 years of friendship.

If you are still together, be advised that her behaviors can continue for decades, perhaps in an on-again, off-again cycle. Ask yourself if this is how you want to live your life.

Your warnings seems dead-on. There has already set in an on-again, off-again cycle. Currently off! We haven't spoken in several weeks. Part of my discomfort now is getting back all the money she owes me. Ugg. That she and her dad promised to pay me back for helping take care of her kids. If it weren't for that I'd probably be much more sanguine about just leaving it for good.


summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you are still together, be advised that her
> behaviors can continue for decades, perhaps in an
> on-again, off-again cycle. Ask yourself if this is
> how you want to live your life.

The chances of you getting the money that you are owed are dim. I would just write the money off and walk away.

I've been through this, not for 20 years, but long enough to know your money is gone..period. Even if you perpetuate this relationship by misrepresenting your intentions for the hope of getting money back in time from her "in a weak moment", it won't work.....and you lose your integrity.

What makes you think you aren't co-dependent?

Since you were attracted to one what was it about her that drew you in?

The reason I ask is because it takes two to tango.

It's too bad your relationship broke up. If you are being honest with yourself, determine how much of that was a joint exercise rather than blaming her for its failure.

Did you dismiss these statements from the OP?


>>"She came across for months as a perfectly-behaved angel. But then one day she SNAPPED."


If you are unfamiliar with the subject, please read up on how very dysfunctionl people can appear to be quite normal. They mimick "healthy" behaviors.

The OP did not ask to be blamed for someone else's behavior, and describes having been deceived by that behavior.

You are assuming something not in the original post - that the gf gave signs of future bad behavior. Minor faults nor "angelic" behavior in a potential mate do not necessarily signal major dysfuntion.

The OP describes major dysfuntion, and the exact types of behaviors that sufferers learn to hide. The OP *assumed* the behaviors were due to codependence, but that was something he did not describe very well. Granted, the gf may be ACOA, but her behavior *SNAPPED* away from any similarities between "angelic" (healthy) and "people-pleasing" (unhealthy) to something quite the opposite.

Expecting a healthy person to recognize the deep deceptions of dysfunctional people is akin to expecting a nevermo to describe Mormon doctrine.

If the OP is so unfamiliar with dysfunction as to make these rudimentary errors, it's not really reasonable to accuse him of being dysfuntional himself. It does not follow.

Thank you.

I will try to learn about how dysfunctional her behaviors are, what they mean. I also need to learn better about how women "hide the crazy."
Yes, looking back now, having been deeply entrenched in her daily life for 1 year+, this does feel like "deep deception."

It's sad, when I first saw her snap, I did literally run. She had tortured me all night long one night about having lovers on the side, which was not true at all, I was only into her. Her father stopped me and convinced me to stay. He lamented how the alcoholism in their home when she was growing up destroyed all their kids, and my heart just went out I guess.


ForeverFree Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did you dismiss these statements from the OP?
>
>
> >>"She came across for months as a
> perfectly-behaved angel. But then one day she
> SNAPPED."
>
>
> If you are unfamiliar with the subject, please
> read up on how very dysfunctionl people can appear
> to be quite normal. They mimick "healthy"
> behaviors.
>
> The OP did not ask to be blamed for someone else's
> behavior, and describes having been deceived by
> that behavior.
>
> You are assuming something not in the original
> post - that the gf gave signs of future bad
> behavior. Minor faults nor "angelic" behavior in
> a potential mate do not necessarily signal major
> dysfuntion.
>
> The OP describes major dysfuntion, and the exact
> types of behaviors that sufferers learn to hide.
> The OP *assumed* the behaviors were due to
> codependence, but that was something he did not
> describe very well. Granted, the gf may be ACOA,
> but her behavior *SNAPPED* away from any
> similarities between "angelic" (healthy) and
> "people-pleasing" (unhealthy) to something quite
> the opposite.
>
> Expecting a healthy person to recognize the deep
> deceptions of dysfunctional people is akin to
> expecting a nevermo to describe Mormon doctrine.
>
> If the OP is so unfamiliar with dysfunction as to
> make these rudimentary errors, it's not really
> reasonable to accuse him of being dysfuntional
> himself. It does not follow.

I don't think a perfectly behaved angel snapping one day makes someone a co-dependent, nor is it symptomatic of a co-dependent.

Women, like men, have their moods.

It's possible Mootman did something to annoy her. It's possible she was having a bad day. There's a hundred and one reasons why someone could be in a bad mood where previously she wasn't.

To expect her to always be an angel is unrealistic and asking too much in terms of being "perfect."

No one is. Isn't it also possible she changed her mind about that relationship, and wasn't in love like before? It happens to the best of us, just saying.

Of course possible, but in this case, right before this last snap, our relationship felt (to me) more loving and intimate and supportive than its ever been and she told me she felt that way too.


Al-Anon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Isn't it also possible she changed her
> mind about that relationship, and wasn't in love
> like before? It happens to the best of us, just
> saying.

It sounds like you are describing borderline personality disorder. I recommend you read "I hate you, don't leave me".

Also "Living with the borderline mother". Even if you don't have kids, the book describes behavioral subtypes that are similar to what you are describing.

Thank you. That helps. Books are good for me

+1. I was also thinking that this sounded like Borderline. The books suggested are excellent.

1. Two codependents don't make a right.

2. Codependents can be men as well. Never try to rescue one of those either.

3. Deal with your shit.

Strong the voice-of-reason here echoes...

/yoda voice off

What we know is that Mormonism breeds narcissism ("We're special, members of the One True Church).

Narcissism and codependency all have the same DNA, childhood shame that hides itself from conscious awareness. We're only as sick as our secrets, and secrets are acted out in relationships.

Actually, that "never rescue" axiom is a sure fire "path to pain," and it's so much simpler to focus on other people's flaws and "stay stuck and sore" rather than grow and move forward.

Do I need a sarcasm tag for that one?

And for those like me, who still switch to "Rescue Mode" at the mere sight of cleavage (I'm speaking for the men only, of course), well I hear they sell Kevlar jockstraps at Costco...

I think what you mean to say is never be a co-dependent in a relationship with an addict. Co-dependent defines you, not her.

I've been to al-anon twice now, I'm a-workin' on it

a nonny mouse Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think what you mean to say is never be a
> co-dependent in a relationship with an addict.
> Co-dependent defines you, not her.

There's a very good book titled "Don't Call That Man," written
for women, but lots of men have read it and loved it.

One thing the author cautions against is making that "emergency" phone call to him (her).

Also, you need to kiss the money you invested goodbye. Don't let that be a reason to keep entangled. Sounds like her father is a pretty clever manipulator himself. The children won't benefit from you. Remember, they are her offspring and will grow up manipulating one more sap that their mother sucked in (I've seen it).

Read up on Borderlines. They love, love, love, and then they hate!

Good luck!

Thank you, yes, her kids are very attached to me but I have had this nagging feeling that there's too much "manipulation" in their way they interact with me

kathleen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
The children won't
> benefit from you. Remember, they are her
> offspring and will grow up manipulating one more
> sap that their mother sucked in (I've seen it).
>
> Read up on Borderlines. They love, love, love,
> and then they hate!
>
> Good luck!

If you are doing the saving, you are the codependent.

Cut and run. The lost money (that you will never see anyway) is the price of freedom.

Not saying this out of hate. OP sends up more red flags for me than the girlfriend.
And what did you really expect as payback for investing in her children? That money is gone.

Well that's what I'm saying. I was raised in a strange cult. And maybe some home issues myself.
In my defense, I paid because they promised to repay me. I duno, I'm a trusting guy I guess.

I won't assume u mean ill, please can u care enough to describe your red flags? Free advice I guess

siobhan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not saying this out of hate. OP sends up more red
> flags for me than the girlfriend.
> And what did you really expect as payback for
> investing in her children? That money is gone.

Don't be the hero ATM machine for her kids. When the ATM machine breaks, you are not longer attached--you are just another asshat in their lives--hers, her father's, and the kids'.

Hard to take- being a sadsack asshat ugg

kathleen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't be the hero ATM machine for her kids. When
> the ATM machine breaks, you are not longer
> attached--you are just another asshat in their
> lives--hers, her father's, and the kids'.

I grew up in a dysfunctional home with two alcoholic parents and two narcissistic siblings.
As the youngest child I grew up taking care of toxic people and trying to survive. Consequently, I developed the co-dependency. At 14 years old I joined the cult. That was my running away from home experience. Wow! My sufferings are beyond words especially since I learned 40 years later the true church is a scam. Cognitive behavioral therapy overs many years in addition to other life changes are needed to overcome co-dependency. It's a trigger that must be managed all the time so as not to relapse. Your GF is in pain and needs CBT or other help. Honesty is necessary for a breakthrough. Enabling anyone with money is not helpful. The money is gone. It's time to part ways.

is when she started needing money from you. I've been in pretty horrible financial circumstances in my life, but I've never been a woman who took money from men. I would NEVER have a man I'm involved with lend me money. My boyfriend makes a lot more money than I do and I still pay my fair share.

My first thought when you said something about money was the same as others have said--to kiss that money good-bye. It's gone.

Where is the father of her children? Why isn't she borrowing money from him rather than you?

That would have been my first red flag.

Good point. I remember losing my job once. My then boyfriend gave me practical help in terms of helping me compose, proofread, and print off my resume. He was a supportive sounding board. But I never would have dreamed of asking him for money, no matter how hard up I got.

It sounds like the OP may have agreed to do child care in exchange for money. I don't think he will ever see that money.

Yes that is the case. She had started to get back on her feet, and started to work again, though not making much. But while she was working, I was raising her kids, a stay at home manny.
Meanwhile she comes home to a clean house, happy kids, and warm food on the stove and hasn't the decency to even think for one second where that good stuff came from.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It sounds like the OP may have agreed to do child
> care in exchange for money. I don't think he will
> ever see that money.

Father of her children became a pass-out alcoholic shortly after they got married and he's almost dead now because of the harm he's caused his body directly due to the alcoholism. So he's totally disabled now and has no earning potential whatsoever.
Looking down on this whole situation I can see why he became a drunk, she probably drove him crazy and turned to drink to cope.
That's what it comes down to, I just didn't appreciate the shitstorm I was getting myself into. I Def saw red flags but I trusted her goodness and loyalty to me to protect me from any blowback of her problems, since we had been friends for so long.

cl2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Where is the father of her children? Why isn't she
> borrowing money from him rather than you?
>
> That would have been my first red flag.

mootman, as others have suggested, read up on BPD and narcissism. Read, in order to protect yourself in your exit.

Again, be careful in your exit. The truth of the danger is in the actual power structure of codependency.

- That picture has now changed somewhat.

The weaker dependent (her) only appears to wield the power, but is in fact highly dependent on the codependent's love, approval, money, etc.

The codependent (you) sees the weakness and dependence of his mate, and secretly enjoys the power he actually holds.

Explained:

As you stated, you felt "safe" because of everything you gave her and did for her; i.e., you felt that you had "bought" your "safety."

And why did she need to "grant" you safety? Don't healthy people give that freely as a part of a loving relationship?

They do.

But not her.

And now, it sounds like you intend to remove your "safety net."

Brace for the worst.

/explanation

You need a plan, no ifs, ands, or buts. Whatever kind of a nut she is, she is also surrounded by a family of nuts who will lie, cheat, steal and harm to get what they want. If you can afford it, you need to move beyond their reach.

You may not yet know the half of what has gone on in that family, because abuse requires privacy. That they maintain the family of origin relationships is very telling; it means that secrets have survived. They don't talk about the abuse that could land people in prison. If there is a "black sheep" of the family with whom they don't communicate? That would be the "truth teller," the one who confronted the dysfunctions head on, and was thus ousted. You would have heard many lies about that person, to keep away from him or her.

You need a "middle of the night" escape to somewhere where they cannot find their most recent "mark." If you have to move out of your own home, evict them, then sell it at a loss through an attorney, it is worth your health and safety.

With any luck, you're in an apartment where you can leave and just pay off the lease from afar with money orders (or paypal or something).

There are plenty of stories of people gone missing for much less than the available balance on your cards. You are describing such a situational setup. Please be careful.

btw, these dysfunctions occur in both (all) sexes and accross all demographics. Though physical size usually gives men the advantage, women resort to weapons, poisons and cohorts to achieve the same ends. Non-violent men under-report abuse, mostly due to lack of support in every imaginable area. Women can be every bit as physically abusive and dangerous as men. It would not surprise me to learn that you may be under-reporting, and have been slapped, punched, scratched, had beverages thrown on you, or otherwise suffered bodily harm. Men have reported these things and much worse, on this forum.

I hesitate to post this because I admit that it sounds alarmist, but, you sound uninformed of exactly whom you are about to "abandon." One does not abandon either a narcissist or a person with BPD without risk.

Good luck to you. And start Googling.

Thank you for taking the time to write up your take.
It sounds dead-on because yes, there is something fishy about strange, strained relationships amongst her family. It was a bit spooky when I saw it in the face a few times.

I'm glad to report I am physically safe, I'm out of there to a place they can't get to me. Thanks. Something surreal about realizing ur in above ur head

ForeverFree Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I hesitate to post this because I admit that it
> sounds alarmist, but, you sound uninformed of
> exactly whom you are about to "abandon." One does
> not abandon either a narcissist or a person with
> BPD without risk.
>
> Good luck to you. And start Googling.

Forever Free, so glad you posted this! Stellar advice!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2017 12:50AM by kathleen.

Also, it is my understanding that "codependency" refers to a relationship meaning that both/all (may be more than two people) in the codependent relationship are part of the codependency.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codependency

Rescuing a codependent person is a sign of codependency.

Thanks for that insight, I was beginning to have the same thought- this now-ex was/is a codependent for having an alcoholic husband, I am too for trying to rescue her, but other family members kind of enable/rescue her too. Or something. I dunno

Bang Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also, it is my understanding that "codependency"
> refers to a relationship meaning that both/all
> (may be more than two people) in the codependent
> relationship are part of the codependency.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codependency
>
> Rescuing a codependent person is a sign of
> codependency.

This is a great topic for discussion because most of us here had a codependent relationship with the LDS church. It's hard to appreciate the toxicology of that without having lived through it. SLCabbie made an important point. Narcissism and codependency are two sides of the same coin. The narcissist needs victims. The codependent needs to be needed because that's the only way they can be good enough. TSCC is Joseph's game writ large. He created a playing field for narcissists, who took the ball and ran with it.

I don't use the term "narcissists" pejoratively. It's the culture that creates them from little innocent children. Likewise it produces people who "aren't good enough". It's TSCC that's "not good enough".

Your comments combined with poster "unbelieveable2" above really pique my interest-- you know, it's quite remarkable, my-"ex" grew up in a very troubled never-mo family but she joined the mormons when she was in her teens, though she's a total-jack now.
I've asked her 1000 times over the years why in the world she would join the Mormon church. I see it may be because it was a good way to "runaway" and stick it to her folks at first and later it maybe became a fun pool of codependent suckers to play around in. The hurt child eventually learns how to be the victimizer. A bit cynically-stated, could maybe be phrased better.
To be honest, in hindsight it feels like there were very particular times when I was emotionally vulnerable when she lured me in, almost like she was lying in wait for it.


Babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is a great topic for discussion because most
> of us here had a codependent relationship with the
> LDS church. It's hard to appreciate the toxicology
> of that without having lived through it. SLCabbie
> made an important point. Narcissism and
> codependency are two sides of the same coin. The
> narcissist needs victims. The codependent needs to
> be needed because that's the only way they can be
> good enough. TSCC is Joseph's game writ large. He
> created a playing field for narcissists, who took
> the ball and ran with it.
>
> I don't use the term "narcissists" pejoratively.
> It's the culture that creates them from little
> innocent children. Likewise it produces people who
> "aren't good enough". It's TSCC that's "not good
> enough".

I am not often by a keyboard so it is difficult for me to respond in depth sometimes. Maybe you were predatory as well seeing a woman who needed help and you may have thought you could purchase a relationship. I am not saying if you did this you acted out of malice. I am nevermo but the jack Mormon who stumbled upon my family just as my husband was dying was most definitely a predator. Again, I am not saying he did this out of malice but the means to prey on vulnerable people does seem to be encoded in the DNA of some mormons

Hmm. I appreciate what you are saying but in this particular case I really don't think that's here. Reason being is we were very close in college, had many interactions, some flirtatious, on and off over many many years. We go way way back. The bigger thing happening here is I just didn't appreciate all the issues deeper down inside that she had. I was definitely very pleased I could be there for her because we did have such a long history that was positive. She has gone through a lot in her life, and the more time I spent, the more layers unfolded to me until, holy sh**, I'm neck-deep in some major drama.

I suppose what you mean by "predator" is that some mormons are pretty narcissistic. I sure hope I'm not. My best friend describes me to people as a "gentle soul" so I'm inclined not to think so.

siobhan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am not often by a keyboard so it is difficult
> for me to respond in depth sometimes. Maybe you
> were predatory as well seeing a woman who needed
> help and you may have thought you could purchase a
> relationship. I am not saying if you did this you
> acted out of malice. I am nevermo but the jack
> Mormon who stumbled upon my family just as my
> husband was dying was most definitely a predator.
> Again, I am not saying he did this out of malice
> but the means to prey on vulnerable people does
> seem to be encoded in the DNA of some mormons

You do sound like you have a good heart. As for the money you spent all you can do is look at it as an investment in the lives of her children. I hope you get to interact with them in 20+ years to see the difference you made on earth!
As for women I was wife#5 to one of the world's most charming men. He told me early on there wasn't a woman alive who didn't have baggage.

My father was an alcoholic until he lost his head to a fake religion that went viral long before the internet.

Alcohol was all he left us. My family was able to live modestly, thanks to his addiction.

His hobbies included brass plates, all-night parties and avoiding inspired zealots.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/smart-living/45-things-only-people-who-grew-up-in-the-south-will-understand/ss-BBCsyc7

but I've had a lot of therapy and worked through many things.

I married my gay ex because I was told I needed to save him. My ex wanted me to "save him," too. I won't get into all that went on. I've written a lot about it on here. One of the reasons I married him, but there were MANY, was because I felt like I was defective (mormonism) and he was defective, so maybe because I was doing this for him, he'd treat me well. ha ha ha ha ha

He treated me like shit after he left. He treated his kids like shit. He left me in financial ruin and I was left to pay all the bills, the house payment, etc., while he and his boyfriend went on trips. I ended up bankrupt (but paid off a chapter 13 and kept my house). I worked 2 jobs, raised our 2 kids, and then my old boyfriend came back into the picture and, what do you know, the ex starts treating us all nice. He continues to do so.

I have had to learn to not let my situation with my boyfriend turn into the same thing. I was allowing him to treat me poorly, but I kept going to therapy and figured out how to have a good relationship, an equal relationship.

My ex and I are great friends now. He know I won't put up with bullshit anymore.

I have been in therapy with my therapist for 19 years now. I only go a few times a year now if that many, but I used to go twice a week. He has helped me extensively.

For me, it was opposite in terms of I am female and I gave my ex everything and he left me picking up the pieces, but to hear him talk years ago, you'd think I was the problem financially when he ran out on us and left us destitute. My boyfriend has a hard time letting me pay for things, but he has learned to let me do so. Completely opposite. One of the reasons I picked only him to date is because some really great men I used to work with though I should marry him in 1978, but I wouldn't because he wasn't mormon. I realized those men recognized something that I chose to overlook.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2017 11:19PM by cl2.

Borderline Narcissist.... This is what your'e dealing with from the sounds of it.
Pure poison and a very very dangerous, crafty, cunning, underhanded, dishonest, manipulative, selfish user out there. No hope of change... no hope of reform.... completely oblivious to their behavior and actions... Total transference of all problems and blame of conditions to you and who you are... but I assume you already have experienced most of this already...
My advice is really simple in theory.... drop that bitch like a live hand grenade... including her kids... and any mutual friends you may have. A relationship with this parasite is not possible. Any attempt to help her... or her kids... will lead you down the road to self destruction and suicide if she doesn't eventually kill you herself.
Listen dude...I don't know you... but please trust me on this. You absolutely must extract yourself from this situation completely no matter the cost and never have any contact with this bitch for any reason ever ever again. Ya... I understand... she was hot in the sack... ya..she had some favorable things that attracted you to her... I get it. This venomous witch if allowed to by you will kill you... dead... like buried in the ground dead. Don't underestimate the danger you are in right now.
If she doesn't enhance you life in EVERY WAY.....dump her without explanation and without mercy. Life is too short to waste a single day on any person that detracts from your own life... period.
All this talk about counseling... bla bla bla.... Listen... Learn what it is to be a man.... take personal responsibility... make your own decisions... be accountable for those decisions... don't trust your emotions until you understand yourself and not just your wants. Experience the power of self determination without the burden of a full time babysitting job... In short discover MANHOOD and what a man really is. You will be amazed. 1st step to manhood.... Be willing to eject any woman in your life out of your life and home if she attempts to violate you or your principals at all times and in all places and be glad that you did it. Thats the first real test of your manhood. Most men won't... they think compromising their principals is necessary to maintain a relationship..... thats bullshit by the way.
So, good luck in your life... dump the bitch... today.... protect yourself and start the journey to a new and free life. The cult teachings are completely wrong about relationships... don't think for one minute that you have to compromise on who you are in order to have a smokin hot.. loyal... smart female in your life as a life partner... Ya they are kinda like unicorns but their out there. MEN attract them. MEN treat them very well because they know how rare and precious they are... and they reciprocate.

Powerful words MrJesusMan

I'm a little taken aback because you know what
That alcoholic exhusband of hers-- a few years ago he mysteriously "fell down the stairs" as the story goes, he's a vegetable now

I agree with you that reciprocal folks are unicorns

I'm a workin on it, thanks

MrJesusMan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Any attempt to help her... or her kids... will
> lead you down the road to self destruction and
> suicide if she doesn't eventually kill you
> herself.

> ... and they reciprocate.

So interesting that you brought up this topic because I'm watching what I just realized was a codependent relationship playing out in my family.

My niece was fresh out of a divorce when she met her current partner. He was also fresh from a break-up from a serious, long term relationship. These two have been together now for about six or seven years. They now have a four-year-old daughter together. Their relationship is getting weirder by the minute. He feels he has rescued her from her horrible first husband and horrible family. She sees him as her rescuer unless he's not jumping through hoops to please her. She is now using their child to manipulate him. They sleep in separate rooms while my niece let's their child sleep with her. I think their child will be seriously messed-up if this relationship continues as it's going. I cannot bear to watch them together so I've stayed out of their lives for the past two years. I was beginning to wonder if I should try to be friendlier with them but I now think I'm better off just avoiding all that crazy. I doubt there is anything I can do to help these two.

Thanks for your post. You have indirectly helped me a lot!