We had some TBM family members visit, and they wanted us to know they are 'good' people. They don't hate homosexuals, etc. They believe in the church, but it is run by imperfect people, so they 'allow' for that. (Also a lot of persecution complex). I think this is a ridiculous justification, and firmly believe that if you give your time and money to something, you are supporting all parts of it, whether you agree with all parts of it or not. Have you had this discussion/argument with TBMs in your life? What do you say?

"The church is perfect, the people aren't"

It just sounds stupid when you're aware that it's a human organization. People are too much a part of the church to just leave them out of the equation. I never had a building push me around or lie to me. The people were all I knew of the church. The church is them, and they are flawed. The church is flawed.

I remember Chuck Heston yelling out, "The Mormon church is people!"

(Individual memory may vary. Not applicable in all states. Capsules may not actually contain medication.)

Wow, you're on the verge of a double-your-Chuck, movie-reference conflation in a single quote. Not only was Chuck famously distressed in Soylent Green, but he was infamously dressed as Brigham Young in Avenging Angel.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2017 01:01PM by nyetmo.

I thought he said Soylent green is people

Whilst some people prefer to remember it that way, I choose to remember it differently. I cannot vouch for the others.

What if you went to church, and there was nobody there,

1. The book of mormon is fiction
2. The book of abraham is fiction
3. If I'm right, and I am, the LDS church is just another church.

No one responds.

The world isn't black and white, it's color. TSCC is just one color. Like mauve.

More like beige to me.

.

Have you ever seen this godawful sofas they put in every foyer? If I were god, i'd be super pissed that they thought it was a good idea to put those in any church building. YUCK!

It's just one dish on the buffet spread of churches. Let's say that it's the jello salad. But there is also the spiral ham, the mac 'n cheese, the Caesar salad, those delicious little meatballs, the butter twist rolls, etc.

Some people will put a scoop of the jello salad on their plates. Many won't.

Here's another one...

"The church is like a hospital, and we are all sick in our own way."

ICU unit for sure

More like the ETERNAL Care Unit, and someone should really just pull the plug, but since the "doctors" don't make money of (spiritually) dead patients,... here we are...

A funny thing happened. The internet came along and told us all about this so-called perfect church.

It's looking like the people are better then the church, and perfection isn't part of the equation.

The church has been caught with their hand in the cookie jar so to speak.

Yet, they also say, 'the thinking has been done' 'the leaders will never lead you astray' the p-hood gets its orders directly from god...

You can't have it both ways.

So, either everything they say *is perfect* in that it comes directly from God, or it isn't.

It would be different if they actually had a Hat, or Wand or Bell to put on/hold up/ring when they are speaking as God and people could assume that they are not perfect at all other times.
But, they give us no such clarity.

The whole point of Christianity is that people *aren't* perfect, but.....


....mormonism seems to want to shame and punish those who aren't. Lots of 19th American sects were like that.


Thoughts?

I always like to ask them, when they tell me it's run by imperfect people as part of a perfect plan, what part of it is perfect????

Give me anything in the church you think is 'perfect' and I will tell you how it's not!

Then it just goes down hill....

Then why does the church require unquestioning obedience to leaders who are imperfect? I don't really have a problem with imperfect people because no one is perfect. But I do have a problem blindly following imperfect people.

My problem with that logic is that everyone expects that you follow the prophet and other leaders as if they were perfect.

What's more, the political structure of the LDS Church doesn't take imperfect people into account. It doesn't allow for dissent. Nobody can say, "dear Leader, Mr. Monson, I don't think that is right..." Nobody can challenge their authority. He can't be removed from office by the membership.

Once the leaders are proved wrong, or the winds of public opinion are blowing at gale force, then they change their position. The membership then acts like the church had never had the previous position. Ugh...what? (Remember Alexander Morrison's 2000 Ensign missive about the LDS Church standing against racism from the beginning--ugh--really?)

Why should we stake our reputations on defending bad ideas just so we can pretend like we never did so 20 years from now? Big waste of time.

When the church fails One Person, it has Failed.

TSCC FAILED my entire family by excusing -accepting -ratifying & condoning Hate, Lies, & Greed from frmr wife...because I stopped attending, I asked questions they didn't want to answer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2017 06:52PM by GNPE.

GNPE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When the church fails One Person, it has Failed.
>
> TSCC FAILED my entire family by excusing
> -accepting -ratifying & condoning Hate, Lies, &
> Greed from frmr wife...because I stopped
> attending, I asked questions they didn't want to
> answer.


You and me both, buddy. -edz

Why, yes -- the church *is* run by imperfect people!

So imperfect, in fact, that they lie regularly to the members. That they promote hatred and ignorance and misogyny and racism.
That they deny facts, in favor of provable falsehoods only intended to keep members paying tithing so they can keep the church corporation growing in $$.

If you were working for a company with such clearly dishonest "imperfect" leaders, would you stay? Would you accept their dishonesty and bigotry? Or would you find someplace to work (or perhaps start your own business) where you wouldn't have to kowtow to dishonest, bigoted asshat leaders?

I wouldn't stay somewhere with such disgustingly imperfect leaders. Especially when they know they're being dishonest and bigoted and idiotic, and they continue to do it, never making any changes for the better. I'd go somewhere where the people I associated with were honest, kind, and tolerant.

And I can't imagine why anyone with any personal morals would stay in a group with such disturbingly "imperfect" leaders.

And the slime starts at the top and oozes down.

The problem for TSCC is that they claim that they are led by God and Jesus, and the earthly leaders get directions directly from heaven.

So if the leaders are imperfect, that implies that
1. God and Jesus are imperfect or
2. Mormon leaders don't, in fact, communicate with God and Jesus, or
3. The leaders ignore what God told them and just do what they want.

None of those leaves TSCC in a very good position.

Haha. My mother said once that she thought Oaks is going to have a lot to answer for when he meets his maker. Huh?

The Mormons brag about their inspiration. Their clergy don't even need to be trained because Holy Ghost. How many times have I heard the prophet and apostles are God's mouthpiece? You can't have it both ways. If you say God inspires and speaks through them, and they do imperfect things, yea even ugly spiteful things, then God is imperfect as he inspires this. They are insulting their own God when they say that the church is run by imperfect people.

The God of the whole earth and universe to infinity and beyond and all he's got to show for it is this crappy little nothing of a church with these old saps running it? It's more than just imperfect. Calling them only "imperfect" is actually a compliment.

What's Important is what reaches the rank-and-file, not the color of the envelope it comes in...

Just as important as words are the actions of the messenger. The LDS 'messenger' has 0 cred, so therefore, same for messages.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2017 12:07AM by GNPE.

In other words, you peons are never to try to hold the leaders responsible for anything they say or do. The fault is always yours. You're just not trying hard enough. Now shut up.

The rub is that if you ever call out LDS leaders as "imperfect people," or deny that they are infallible, you can be excommunicated. One would fine oneself in front of the high council for saying something like, "I support Bednar, but I think he's a real dick." And Joseph Smith is always infallible, until he isn't. If you prove to someone that he was an adulterer, they will then say he was imperfect; they have just said that Smith was simultaneously infallible and imperfect. Happens all the time.

Mormons giggle and titter at other religious people who get behind and support their favourite televangelist even after he was caught with a male prostitute. They will laugh and laugh when one of these people is on TV saying, "Ah know he's sinnnned! But he's STILL a man of Gawd!" They don't see the irony when they do that very thing about their leaders, particularly Joseph Smith.

TSCC doesn't have leaders. It has career bureaucrats.

Yes. That's good

"it is run by imperfect people" is the rant of the enablers.

They attempt to run you into the ground with their superiority complex. They trip of arrogance. When you calmly point out problems with their founder, Mormonism's history, and its theology the turn tail and play the "we're so persecuted" card.

#notbuyingit

And these imperfect people justify their behavior by quoting the "Restored Gospel" (which is perfect).

Years later another another imperfect person quotes the same "Restored Gospel" (which is perfect) when they throw the first imperfect person under the bus.

What about the members who lived their lives believing in BYs Adam-God, racism, etc?

Will they have to attend 're-education camps' in the after-life?

I guess so.

It's a good thing God would never allow the Prophet to lead the church astray.

It can't be the one true church and rendered falsified by people. There's no way HF would let his restored church be such a failure. The Mormon Gawd is super insecure and needs his reputation shored up by perfect minions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2017 11:22PM by carameldreams.

One of the GA's (I can't remember which one at the moment), recently said to cut Joseph Smith some slack because he wasn't perfect. I can think of a couple of things that he was perfect in doing.. :-(

Haha. Yeah. There were no flies on Joseph. He was good at it all up until the end.

I think when the Mormon leaders say "Cut Joseph some slack," they are really saying to cut them some slack because they are tired of trying to defend the indefensible. It was all so much easier when they could just hide it. Now its turned in to full time job.

They can't have it both ways... IE: Christ is at the head of the church. AND The mistakes are because of imperfect people who lead it.

What is the point of having Christ at the head of something that is run by imperfect people who make mistakes? Isn't the whole point of having Christ at the head to correct for the imperfections of man??

The whole thing is BS

I am not defending the church because it is wrong on almost everything and I certainly dont think Christ is leading it, but logically you could argue that Christ lets people make their own decisions and make some mistakes in order to learn. Maybe he doesnt believe in micromanagement. You seem to be saying if a church isnt perfect it cant be true. That seems a bit simplistic as there are people involved and people are imperfect. Not that I believe in one true church , but I do see a flaw in your argument. Nothing is.perfect.

There are good people in the church. It's the church we should apologize for, because it keeps people from being the good people they are naturally.

My favorite response is to say, "You've got it backasswards. The LDS PEOPLE are perfect (i.e., pretty good), the CHURCH is not."

If only that were true...I know way too many arrogant, self-righteous assholes that are Mormon. And some of them are related to me. They're not all bad, fortunately.

When they up the ante on Honesty, Kindness, & Respect for others, they'll realize that correcting mistakes instead of denying-burying them (are U reading, Uchtdorf?) gives a better outcome...

(Sorry for dup posting



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2017 04:09PM by GNPE.

Baseball teams are just people too, but over the course of a season, the differences in abilities show up in the win and loss statistics. Teams that hit better, field better, and make fewer errors win more games.

A church that claims to be the only true church, to have the power and authority to act in the name of God, to have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, and to be guided and taught by prophets, seers, and revelators surely should be far more advanced after nearly 200 years than any other church?

Either the church is all of the above or it is just another group of error prone, fallible people.

Yup and they dont

Nothing is perfect and we have to accept flaws in people and organizations because that is simply the way things are. The idea that we have to accept everything in every organizatoon we belong to is simplistic and not to mention impossible. We have to decide if the good outweighs the bad and if it meets our needs and decide from there. Since churches are run by imperfect people, they are not going to be perfect and that is a fact. Another instance, I am patriotic even though I hate,hate, hate Donald Trump. I am not going to renounce.my.citizenship and.move abroad.
However, if the church is what it claims and is led by God it shouldnt be on the wrong side of almost all social issues. Sure, the leaders are imperfect people as we all are, but they should have a better track record than they have if they are inspired. I cant accept that many flaws.

My reply is: "no. The people by-and-large of good intent. They are just comprised by the roles and policies of the church. And for those unsuited to leadership it brings out the worst of them."

The above is consistent what organizational theory and research would predict (btw, I'm an organization and strategy professor). Once I left and looked at the whole matter of TSCC through my training I was stunned how I did not see this and so many other things. Cognitive dissonance is real and no one - even for me which was hard to admit to myself - is immune.

As a tbm, I would respond to this statement by saying that the Church isn't perfect because it's only a vehicle run by imperfect men. Only God is perfect. I always separated the organization/brethren et. al. from God. This mindset was what later allowed me to look at the issues and finally determine that it was all made up, which includes the bible too. I don't believe that an anthropomorphic god is a rational belief either anymore. Took me 58 years on this planet to figure that out.

One of my realisations was that TSCC was making no difference to me and in fact was damaging my integrity. So yes, the church really is populated by ordinary people and I'm glad that reason is trotted out as a reason for bad goings on as it proves half the point - going to church and doing all the mormon things makes no real difference.

The members are TOLD that the church is perfect. It's an ego stroke that they are considered worthy to be part of such a perfect organization. It isn't perfect - but they believe what they are told.

The church is their real God. Not Jesus. Half the time they are not even thinking about Jesus. They don't say "I don't know where I'd be without Jesus" - they say "I don't know where I'd be without the church." They "belong to the Church" not to "Jesus." Most sentences where a Christian would use the word Jesus, Mormons use the words "the church." Of COURSE they need to believe it is perfect - they worship it. It's their real God.

Well, it is easier than saying "I don't know where I'd be if it wasn't for The Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."