Recovery Board
: RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
Jonathan MS Pearce writes ...
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"The Stoic philosophers taught that we attain happiness by living according to nature. Since nature endows the human male with a beard, and woman not (usually), the Stoics took the beard as nature’s signal of maleness and ruled out shaving.
Chrysippus (c. 279-206) recounts that Diogenes the Cynic—the famous searcher for an honest man—accosted a shaved man by saying, “surely you don’t bring a charge against nature for making you a man and not a woman?” Chrysippus goes on to block an appeal to custom by noting that men only started shaving at the time of Alexander the Great, though when he names two cities where shaving was illegal, he has to add that no one now obeys those laws (XXVIII fr. 3= Αthenaeus, Sophists at Dinner XIII 565A-D).
In Rome of the first century C.E., Musonius Rufus was recorded in Discourse 21 as teaching that the beard is provided by nature and is symbol of the male, like the cock’s crest and lion’s mane. One should remove a burdensome amount of hair but ought not shave the beard, except when there is a disease of the chin.
Nature keeps guard more carefully against deficiency than against excess, so it’s common sense to assist nature and cut off some of our hair. Men with fancy haircuts, though, are like women who try to make themselves more beautiful with hairstyles.
Men who cut their hair and shave their cheeks want to look like boys, or they’re androgynous and womanish, not real men. They are driven by lust and vanity and just want to look attractive.
This teaching was picked up by Christians. Previously I posted in a combox on Jonathan’s blog that Clement of Alexandria viewed hairiness as sign of maleness. According to Clement, God took something from Adam’s hairless part, the side, and made female nature to serve male.
It’s unholy for a man to transgress hairiness, the symbol of male nature (Paedegogus III.3.19.3). The Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, compiled in the fourth century, say, “Nor may men destroy even a hair of their beards and thus against nature change the form of a man” (I.2.10).
As Tertullian does about veils, these thinkers call in nature as an ally for beards but do not make a natural law argument explicit. If I may try that for them, I suggest that the wrong-making feature of shaving is that it prevents the male chin and its hair-growing faculty from performing its function—producing a beard. Armchair theorizing might come up with attracting a mate, perhaps also signaling the male’s virile power to rival males, as functions of the beard.
As such they serve the larger reproductive function of the male. Since we are by nature social animals, we may think that the beard also marks the male’s status at the top of a gendered social hierarchy. That is the plane on which these thinkers care about beards, as we can see when they associate shaving with other practices of libidinous males who, they say, want to look like boys or women."
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"The Stoic philosophers taught that we attain happiness by living according to nature. Since nature endows the human male with a beard, and woman not (usually), the Stoics took the beard as nature’s signal of maleness and ruled out shaving.
Chrysippus (c. 279-206) recounts that Diogenes the Cynic—the famous searcher for an honest man—accosted a shaved man by saying, “surely you don’t bring a charge against nature for making you a man and not a woman?” Chrysippus goes on to block an appeal to custom by noting that men only started shaving at the time of Alexander the Great, though when he names two cities where shaving was illegal, he has to add that no one now obeys those laws (XXVIII fr. 3= Αthenaeus, Sophists at Dinner XIII 565A-D).
In Rome of the first century C.E., Musonius Rufus was recorded in Discourse 21 as teaching that the beard is provided by nature and is symbol of the male, like the cock’s crest and lion’s mane. One should remove a burdensome amount of hair but ought not shave the beard, except when there is a disease of the chin.
Nature keeps guard more carefully against deficiency than against excess, so it’s common sense to assist nature and cut off some of our hair. Men with fancy haircuts, though, are like women who try to make themselves more beautiful with hairstyles.
Men who cut their hair and shave their cheeks want to look like boys, or they’re androgynous and womanish, not real men. They are driven by lust and vanity and just want to look attractive.
This teaching was picked up by Christians. Previously I posted in a combox on Jonathan’s blog that Clement of Alexandria viewed hairiness as sign of maleness. According to Clement, God took something from Adam’s hairless part, the side, and made female nature to serve male.
It’s unholy for a man to transgress hairiness, the symbol of male nature (Paedegogus III.3.19.3). The Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, compiled in the fourth century, say, “Nor may men destroy even a hair of their beards and thus against nature change the form of a man” (I.2.10).
As Tertullian does about veils, these thinkers call in nature as an ally for beards but do not make a natural law argument explicit. If I may try that for them, I suggest that the wrong-making feature of shaving is that it prevents the male chin and its hair-growing faculty from performing its function—producing a beard. Armchair theorizing might come up with attracting a mate, perhaps also signaling the male’s virile power to rival males, as functions of the beard.
As such they serve the larger reproductive function of the male. Since we are by nature social animals, we may think that the beard also marks the male’s status at the top of a gendered social hierarchy. That is the plane on which these thinkers care about beards, as we can see when they associate shaving with other practices of libidinous males who, they say, want to look like boys or women."
"The natural man is an enemy to God."
Is that an argument for circumcision ?
No. Enemies are critical. If I am God's enemy, he shouldn't have created me natural!
He put hair on my face and that's its fair and rightly place. Who am I to argue with that (that razor) and what good would it do? If God is my enemy, simply because I grow natural, beautiful and colorful, perhaps he should become like me, rather than the other way around.
I'm not bending (over) for nobody!
It God don't love - and befriend - me the way I am, He shouldn't have made me this way.
Just sayin'
M@t
He put hair on my face and that's its fair and rightly place. Who am I to argue with that (that razor) and what good would it do? If God is my enemy, simply because I grow natural, beautiful and colorful, perhaps he should become like me, rather than the other way around.
I'm not bending (over) for nobody!
It God don't love - and befriend - me the way I am, He shouldn't have made me this way.
Just sayin'
M@t
I get the point...LDS are somehow against beards. A few years ago when I was in the bishopric and grew a beard, one member (branch president of the singles ward) said on one more than one occasion, "Looks like a a dead cat on your face."
WTF.
I just gave him a look like I didn't care, but I should have said "F off." An otherwise nice guy but really? Just say, "It's not an acceptable practice to have a beard."
I would go back in time and say...
"What do you mean by that? You don't like it? Because I don't give a fuck what you think. Until the prophet says I can't have facial hair then shut the fuck up."
Really, I didn't care what the "prophet" said but it would have screwed with his mind.
A better and more simple response would have been, "Fuck you, too."
I NEVER liked the people at church. I have no regrets not knowing them anymore.
WTF.
I just gave him a look like I didn't care, but I should have said "F off." An otherwise nice guy but really? Just say, "It's not an acceptable practice to have a beard."
I would go back in time and say...
"What do you mean by that? You don't like it? Because I don't give a fuck what you think. Until the prophet says I can't have facial hair then shut the fuck up."
Really, I didn't care what the "prophet" said but it would have screwed with his mind.
A better and more simple response would have been, "Fuck you, too."
I NEVER liked the people at church. I have no regrets not knowing them anymore.
For some balance, the second counsellor in my stake presidency has a beard - can't remember the last time I saw him clean shaven. Previous calling - bishop.
We also have a Branch President and a Bishop in our stake with a beard.
The only prohibition I am aware of, at stake level and below, to a beard is temple ordinance workers. And they are permitted if it covers a facial deformity.
We also have a Branch President and a Bishop in our stake with a beard.
The only prohibition I am aware of, at stake level and below, to a beard is temple ordinance workers. And they are permitted if it covers a facial deformity.
Maybe those guys all have facial deformities?
You comment just proves the randomness of enforcement by low-ranking wannabes. Some could care less, others are on a crusade.
You comment just proves the randomness of enforcement by low-ranking wannabes. Some could care less, others are on a crusade.
You are correct - not everyone in the Church is perfect. And some are the complete opposite.
They never have hemorrhoids because they are perfect assholes.
"You are correct - not everyone in the Church is perfect. And some are the complete opposite."
NO ONE in the church is perfect, especially those with assumed authority that use it to bully people, and there are many of those. I know, I've met them, read them, heard them. While there are many good people that claim to be mormon, the corporation/religion itself is quite destructive. The fact that beards are even being discussed is evidence of the bullying nature of TSCC.
Maybe you missed this thread titled "The Church is Run by Imperfect People Justification"?
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1997904
NO ONE in the church is perfect, especially those with assumed authority that use it to bully people, and there are many of those. I know, I've met them, read them, heard them. While there are many good people that claim to be mormon, the corporation/religion itself is quite destructive. The fact that beards are even being discussed is evidence of the bullying nature of TSCC.
Maybe you missed this thread titled "The Church is Run by Imperfect People Justification"?
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1997904
I pretty much grow a beard now because I can. It takes a few months to fill in, but when it does it looks good.
I will forever be perplexed by Mormons aversion to facial hair. It no longer has any of the cultural associations with Outlaw culture or counterculture or anything like that- on the contrary, beards are often seen as stylish and common, if not necessarily conservative, but I definitely would not call them liberal.
It's just another Mormon attempt to fight the tide and control the members. They also seem to have incredibly slippery members since for the first hundred years or so of the church's existence most of the leadership had huge sideburns and long beards. Hell, most of the male members did.
It just isn't a big deal.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2017 11:21AM by midwestanon.
I will forever be perplexed by Mormons aversion to facial hair. It no longer has any of the cultural associations with Outlaw culture or counterculture or anything like that- on the contrary, beards are often seen as stylish and common, if not necessarily conservative, but I definitely would not call them liberal.
It's just another Mormon attempt to fight the tide and control the members. They also seem to have incredibly slippery members since for the first hundred years or so of the church's existence most of the leadership had huge sideburns and long beards. Hell, most of the male members did.
It just isn't a big deal.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2017 11:21AM by midwestanon.
Facial hair is one of the greatest indicators that gawd screwed up if indeed man was designed...that and needing to eat every Four hours and if you don't get enough coma every night...your cheese will slide off your cracker...yeah I'd call those design flaws...lets put a sprinkling of coarse hair here here and here...and let's make this hair. Go away after thirty...and the gawds looked upon what they had done...and laughed their asses off....can't say I've seen one guy that looks better with a beard...and a ton that just look ridiculous imo
I love my husband's bushy beard, but why does he grow it? As an act of defiance? For vanity? To submit to the will of God? No! He's lazy and doesn't like to shave!
I'm just the opposite. I don't want ANY hair. It's a pain in the butt.
I like a beard on a man. My hubsie has a very nice one. I help him shampoo it and use conditioner on it so it's soft as can be.
Could be that beards remind TBMs too much of the old discredited profits whom they wish to just go away.
After WWII one of the big cultural and economic trends was modernism. "Let's all go boldy into the future!" The shaven face was a sign of modernity. Facial hair was a sign of being stuck in the past. It was also a sign of social status. Manual laborers, bumpkins and hobos had beards. The new white color man didn't.
After Heber J. Grant died, I think McKay wanted a modern image for the church. It was bad enough the church couldn't shake the whole polygamist thing. At least they could not look like backward-assed hillbilly polygamists stuck in the 19th century.
After Heber J. Grant died, I think McKay wanted a modern image for the church. It was bad enough the church couldn't shake the whole polygamist thing. At least they could not look like backward-assed hillbilly polygamists stuck in the 19th century.
One reason beards went out of fashion was because of the tuberculosis epidemics. Once people discovered that coughing and spitting spread the disease, no one wanted to be kissed by a man with a beard because it could have been contaminated.
ZZ Top and Lee Sklar have been making beards fashionable for years lol
I think that a review of the portraits of church presidents tell part of the story. First president in the 20th century without a beard was McKay. Lee hated beards. Go figure. I heard that beards became a symbol of "rebellion" in the sixties (at least perceived by church leadership) but I cannot cite a source. However BYU had an annual beard growing contest way back before my time there (1970's). Facts and factoids.
Many facts and factoids in this thread make it an interesting read! I'm nevermo but I have always been attracted to(well- maintained) facial hair on men ;)
cinda, I agree.
What's most interesting about this issue is the peer pressure involved. Sometimes to grow one (like the "philosophers" in the OP's post), sometime not (like BYU). Everybody insisting they know best what to do about facial hair, and demanding everyone else do what they say.
Me, I don't give a fuck. Have one, don't have one, whatever. Personally, I typically shave twice a week or so, because I hate shaving every day. I don't like a "full" beard, too damn itchy and messy. So I vary from smooth as a baby's bottom to several days' worth of stubble. And if anybody give me crap about either, I tell 'em to mind their own damn business. :)
What's most interesting about this issue is the peer pressure involved. Sometimes to grow one (like the "philosophers" in the OP's post), sometime not (like BYU). Everybody insisting they know best what to do about facial hair, and demanding everyone else do what they say.
Me, I don't give a fuck. Have one, don't have one, whatever. Personally, I typically shave twice a week or so, because I hate shaving every day. I don't like a "full" beard, too damn itchy and messy. So I vary from smooth as a baby's bottom to several days' worth of stubble. And if anybody give me crap about either, I tell 'em to mind their own damn business. :)
I'm with you, H2. My brother has a beard too. His response to people who make disparaging remarks:
"My face, my rules."
"My face, my rules."
There is a fellow with a thick beard, probably 30ish, has his wife with him every SM, seems to be TBM, he mentioned once about his mission. No complaints from anyone it seems......
I know there's someone in another ward who's a dead ringer for James Garfield, so I always in my mind call him that.
I know there's someone in another ward who's a dead ringer for James Garfield, so I always in my mind call him that.
Facial hair is like pubic hair. Part of who I am. You don't like my facial hair, well shit you have an ugly nose. Just saying. To hell with vacuous, phoney intellectuals...
I had a beard (still do) and long hair when I was in the bishopric. Literally every visiting Mormon dignitary complained about it, especially the Americans. My bishop didn't care.
Once (mid-1990s) I was picked up by a friend at the SLC airport and we ran into the Jeffster. Since my friend knew him, and Holland knew my family (not me), we briefly said hi and shook hands. Holland stroked my cheek and said "nice beard" before he moved on (he was meeting a returning missionary).
I thought that was so weird, considering we never met. Who does that? Guess he never saw a beard before.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2017 10:03AM by rt.
Once (mid-1990s) I was picked up by a friend at the SLC airport and we ran into the Jeffster. Since my friend knew him, and Holland knew my family (not me), we briefly said hi and shook hands. Holland stroked my cheek and said "nice beard" before he moved on (he was meeting a returning missionary).
I thought that was so weird, considering we never met. Who does that? Guess he never saw a beard before.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2017 10:03AM by rt.
rt Wrote:
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> I thought that was so weird, considering we never
> met. Who does that? Guess he never saw a beard
> before.
He was just jealous...he couldn't grow one and get away with it. You could. :)
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> I thought that was so weird, considering we never
> met. Who does that? Guess he never saw a beard
> before.
He was just jealous...he couldn't grow one and get away with it. You could. :)
Years ago we were thinking of moving back to Utah. At a final job interview sitting across from three male beardless Mormons they asked how I would feel about shaving my beard. Having anticipated the question, I pulled out a razor I had in my front pocket and said "show me the contract". They laughed and the job was mine, ended up turning it down because my wife's new job fell through. Didn't move back- probably a good thing.
David O McKay started the whole anti beard or long hair on men. He was terrified the boys/men might look like hippies. Can't have that. Put out decrees about being clean shaven and keeping your hair in a nice 50's style cut.
This caused Civil War in our house. It actually got quite physical at times between my brothers and father. My sisters and I were busy at war with our mother about the length of our skirts, and where we could or couldn't wear pants.
The fights were so bad that they damaged relationships for life. It was insane how violent it got. All over a bit of hair and a scrap of fabric. So stupid.
This caused Civil War in our house. It actually got quite physical at times between my brothers and father. My sisters and I were busy at war with our mother about the length of our skirts, and where we could or couldn't wear pants.
The fights were so bad that they damaged relationships for life. It was insane how violent it got. All over a bit of hair and a scrap of fabric. So stupid.
Orthodox Judaism requires males to have beards, but many or most reform types don't pay much attention to it. Same with always wearing your hat.
In the Air Force in the late 60s beards were forbidden without a medical excuse, which eventually became a racial issue because of a condition known as "pseudofolliculitis," more common among some minority groups.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudofolliculitis_barbae
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/pseudofolliculitis
OTOH, for a while there the Navy under admiral Zumwalt allowed beards, under a raft of qualifying regulations as you might expect. The Marines didn't go along on that one.
AF regulations while I was in allowed a "neatly trimmed" moustache, whatever that is; but local commanders were occasionally known to--ah--"discourage"--such things. Fighter pilots sometimes grew impressive handlebars, and there were concerns about moustache wax causing fires in your oxygen mask, although I never saw any actual accident reports on that.
Regulations also went into great detail about sideburns, which were not supposed to extend below the lower edge of the hole in your ear. It was nice to know they concentrated on the important things. I was wearing a helmet at the time, so I just kept it short, about like two weeks after your first haircut in Basic Training. Occasionally I was held up as an example: the commander would say to some shaggy person, "Why can't you just get it cut like Backseater?"
Nearly 50 years later what's left of the hair is still about the same, but it's a bicycle helmet now. I also have a neatly trimmed beard, whatever that is, but then I'm 72 years old and a college professor.
In 1979 the missionaries didn't say anything abut my moustache. I guess they were going to bring it up after baptism. When and if I get another missionary visit, I'll ask them about that.
In the Air Force in the late 60s beards were forbidden without a medical excuse, which eventually became a racial issue because of a condition known as "pseudofolliculitis," more common among some minority groups.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudofolliculitis_barbae
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/pseudofolliculitis
OTOH, for a while there the Navy under admiral Zumwalt allowed beards, under a raft of qualifying regulations as you might expect. The Marines didn't go along on that one.
AF regulations while I was in allowed a "neatly trimmed" moustache, whatever that is; but local commanders were occasionally known to--ah--"discourage"--such things. Fighter pilots sometimes grew impressive handlebars, and there were concerns about moustache wax causing fires in your oxygen mask, although I never saw any actual accident reports on that.
Regulations also went into great detail about sideburns, which were not supposed to extend below the lower edge of the hole in your ear. It was nice to know they concentrated on the important things. I was wearing a helmet at the time, so I just kept it short, about like two weeks after your first haircut in Basic Training. Occasionally I was held up as an example: the commander would say to some shaggy person, "Why can't you just get it cut like Backseater?"
Nearly 50 years later what's left of the hair is still about the same, but it's a bicycle helmet now. I also have a neatly trimmed beard, whatever that is, but then I'm 72 years old and a college professor.
In 1979 the missionaries didn't say anything abut my moustache. I guess they were going to bring it up after baptism. When and if I get another missionary visit, I'll ask them about that.
Beards denote wisdom, which must be why they are seldom seen in LDS CULTure