We have all been there.

We have argued with missionaries, home/visiting teachers, family, friends of the ward, priesthood leaderships, and random ward members...

We make valid points right down the line.

Sometimes we are so good that we shut them down, and there is a pause, and they move on to the next question.

When they cant gain any traction... it's time for "The Last Argument"

Here it comes... you can tell... you see it in their condescending smile...

At the end of every argument, they question your testimony. They question how you "feel".

When facts are defeated, they switch to feelings.

They tell you that nothing matters because they still have a testimony, and YOU never really had one.

Then... they tell you that you need to get a testimony... THAT'S THE PROBLEM!

They tell you that you need to READ the BoM more, pray about it, and get an answer.

Some of us tell them we HAVE... but they just respond with you didn't do it HARD ENOUGH, and keep praying until you receive an answer in the affirmative.

That's it. That's their trump card, and they play it every time when they have nothing else.

About all you can do is let them know that other religions have the same testimonies and "feelings". Since they all have different beliefs then their emotions aren't good indicators of truth. Of course they all think that THEIR feelings are more accurate than the other religions.

... yep, and the Bible itself claims that feelings should not be used to judge truth.

But for them, they end up saying this anyway:

"I don't care what you say. The church is true, Joseph Smith was a prophet, and we have a living prophet today on the earth.

You can't fight against truth."

I remind them that having a "testimony" of something being true when it's demonstrably false is the very definition of delusion.
And that they should seek professional mental health treatment for it.

:)

That's why you open with feelings aren't a proof of truth and facts. So that line of thinking from the start.

During my last discussion with a "priesthood leader", I was admonished to "Doubt your Doubts". That caused me a stupor of thought so I put a rock in my hat and saw the interpretation!
"Don't worry about them flippen' verifiable facts, just get yerself a warm fuzzy feeling and don't question your leaders"

Funny enough, I put a rock in my hat and it told me the church was a crock!

I put a rock in a hat, and all I got was a rock in a hat.
New rock?
New hat?

:)

I've found that an overactive imagination really helps with the rock in the hat thing.

maybe the wifi for the Istone was down when you did it?

Maybe.
That's the trouble with Elohim -- lousy IT support.

Despite the returned letters, despite the unanswered phone calls, despite being removed by security from backstage at the concerts, despite the restraining orders, despite what my parole officer tells....

....I *know*, with every fiber of my being, that Taylor Swift really does love me. The Adversary (Katy Perry) will try to tempt me with anti-Taylor "evidence", but it cannot shake my undeniable faith.

I get a strong impression every timer I hear her songs, and I know from the still, small voice that if I just prayerfully study her lyrics, with real intent, the truth of her love will manifest itself.

And if I have enough faith she will open the windows of her limo and shower me with blessings.

In the name shakeitoff, Amen

"I can demonstrate (or have demonstrated) to you that Joseph Smith, whom you praise and revere, was a con man and sexual predator; that the BOM, the keystone of the religion, is a racist piece of fiction whose copyright JS tried to sell, and for which no corroborating evidence has ever been found; that the Book of Abraham is a provable fraud… [insert anything else]

"If you are convinced that god would choose a man like that as a prophet, then my standards are much higher than yours. Further, since your testimony is built around provable falsehoods, misrepresentations and lies, it is built on a foundation of sand. It is worthless and meaningless.

"My turn. I testify to you that your church is a fraudulent cult that will use any means of deception to retain its membership and tithing inflow. I testify that you are wasting your life – your time, money, effort and talents – on an ungrateful church that will never be satisfied and will always demand more. I testify of this in the name of Facts, and Truth, and Honesty, and Integrity."

Mic drop. Walk away.

Yesterday I talked with a RM, and I told him that I won't come back to TSCC.
And in the end he told me just do the James 1:5 thing and talk with a high priest.
And that's it, there is nothing else to do and if you don't have the so-called answer from god then the spirit which is in [priesthood leader] will say you are wrong and if you ask someone else it would be the same.
Because in TSCC everything is done with the fact that everything can change except the fact that the church is true.

If it's true that the definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing and expect a different result, I would have to be completely insane to read the BoM and pray about it again.

I read the "most correct book" for the first time when I was a teenager, the last time when I was a middle aged man, and several times in between. Every time I finished, I found a quiet place to pray about the "truth" in that book. Every time I prayed, I received...nothing.

Of course, I blamed myself for not getting an answer to my prayers, but I finally figure out that there was no answer to receive, and nobody doing any answering.

yeppers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> They tell you that nothing matters because they
> still have a testimony, and YOU never really had
> one.
>
> Then... they tell you that you need to get a
> testimony... THAT'S THE PROBLEM!
>
> They tell you that you need to READ the BoM more,
> pray about it, and get an answer.
>
> Some of us tell them we HAVE... but they just
> respond with you didn't do it HARD ENOUGH, and
> keep praying until you receive an answer in the
> affirmative.
>
> That's it. That's their trump card, and they play
> it every time when they have nothing else.


Because some of those self-righteous assholes know that you never prayed hard enough, got lazy and lost your testimony, because THEY know you better than you know yourself.

Ugh.

When they pull-out that 'testimony' crap, I tell them that I don't like being lied to,that they are bearing a false witness, and that I judge their honesty based on their willingness to lie to me with this false witness. Then ask when the first time was when they bore their testimony. "Was it when you were four years old and your parents whispered your testiminy in your ear while you repeated their words in fast and testimony meeting?". "So do you know the church is true beyond a shadow of a doubt? (gag)". "Give me a break. You and I both know it's all a bunch of crap.", and say it just that way, and don't back down. Shame them for lieing to you.

How about that horrible feeling when i saw the temple ceremony, you should bring that up. I just tell missionaries that im not interested and close my door i dont battle, unless i am supposed to?

You are right to bring up that gawd-awful temple ceremony. But I have learned to avoid conflicts with the missionaries unless there is a reason to spend that energy. You can treat them with respect while not needing to agree with them about religion. They are like a stray animal. If you feed them (either food or by discussing religion with them) they'll come back for more later. I usually act ignorant and dis-interested, and they just move-on. If they ever violate my boundries, I'll shread their testimonies with a friendly smile on my face and a friendly decorum.