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Posted by: desertman ( )
Date: September 16, 2017 08:32PM

A cult is an egalitarian exclusionary organization which seeks to control its members in all aspects of their lives. The word is a deritive of the word culture which indicates a specific group. If you take the letters ure off the word culture what you have left is cult.
An additional definition is any group which has a pyramid type authoritarian leadership structure with all teaching and guidance coming from the person or persons at the top. The group will claim to be the only way to God; Nirvana; Paradise; Ultimate Reality; Full Potential, Way to Happiness etc, and will use thought reform or mind control techniques to gain control and keep their members.

This definition covers cults within all major world religions, along with those cults which have no OBVIOUS religious base such as commercial, educational and psychological cults. Others may define these a little differently, but this is the simplest to work from for me

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Posted by: badassadam ( )
Date: September 16, 2017 08:36PM

Appreciate that desertman.

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Posted by: Bang ( )
Date: September 16, 2017 08:55PM

So, are you advocating that people should be prohibited by law from believing that or teaching that?

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Posted by: desertman ( )
Date: September 16, 2017 08:59PM

Bang, please clarify

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Posted by: Bang ( )
Date: September 16, 2017 09:03PM

Bad is advocating outlawing cults, do you believe your definition justifies outlawing cults.

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Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: September 16, 2017 09:10PM

The problem with legislating against the idea that an organization shouldn't be allowed to teach the best way to live your life is obviously what if that organization truly does know the best way one should live their life.

The second issue is equally problematic. What if there are different ways that people can be happy or fulfilled. Are we to ask our government to suss out the right and wrong of each idea and then legislate for or against each one?

If we ask any government to rule on the morality of any single thing than we are asking them to rule on the morality of all things. That would be the worst kind of government. If we define every cult as harmful it still doesn't help in defining a cult. The best solution, in my opinion, is to define the behaviors that are harmful potentially legislate against those.

This really isn't about the horrible things that happen because of cults, it is about the worse things that can happen if we allow for people wholly uninterested in our happiness to tell us how we can be happy.

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: September 17, 2017 01:42AM

Protection of Religion is written into the US constitution. Protection of Beer is written into the German constitution. It's obvious who made the right choice.

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Posted by: badassadam ( )
Date: September 17, 2017 01:23PM

Hahahaha babylon you and donbagley have moved up to two of my favorites on here.

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Posted by: badassadam ( )
Date: September 16, 2017 09:05PM

Wow i cant believe how blown up that other thread got. I am fighting against cults on a recovery site from a cult this is so bizarre but very interesting. Its like stockholm syndrome or something. People defending cults that screwed them over, maybe i should start a cult seeing how popular it can become make a little money as well and become all that i hate jk.

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Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: September 16, 2017 09:13PM

The issue isn't how we all feel about cults. Because Mormonism fucked us all. It is about the level of trust we have in our governments to protect us from those cults. As well as the consequences of allowing our governments to do that.

Your original question was why it is isn't illegal. The answer is that you don't want to live in a world where a government is allowed to make that decision for you.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: September 16, 2017 09:14PM

It is also about freedom, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

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Posted by: badassadam ( )
Date: September 16, 2017 09:16PM

But the decision was made for me anyways the children had no choice atleast with the government it could have made a difference and not forced the cult indoctrination down our throats.

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Posted by: Bang ( )
Date: September 16, 2017 09:30PM

And you want to hand parenting over to the government?

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Posted by: badassadam ( )
Date: September 16, 2017 09:35PM

No i wanted the parenting to be released totally from the cult. It would have changed everything but i could be wrong.

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Posted by: badassadam ( )
Date: September 17, 2017 12:44AM

Nice job with the (swears) by the way. I need to start doing that.

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Posted by: Bang ( )
Date: September 16, 2017 09:10PM

I fight against cults, but I also fight against those that want to control the thoughts and beliefs of others using the force of law.

I see no difference between a cult and someone that wants to legislate what people should or should not believe.

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Posted by: badassadam ( )
Date: September 16, 2017 09:13PM

I see what you are saying i think i just want to look out for the vulnerable i guess i dont know.

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Posted by: Bang ( )
Date: September 16, 2017 09:18PM

If you make it acceptable for the government to legislate what people can and can not believe, you make everyone vulnerable.

If there is a thought control cult in my country, I can avoid it with little effort.

If my country starts passing thought control laws, it becomes a form of cult I can not escape short of fleeing the country.

Legislating beliefs scares me more than allowing cults.

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Posted by: badassadam ( )
Date: September 16, 2017 09:38PM

Not me i fear cults way more than anything the government could mustar up but i am pretty scarred so.

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Posted by: scmd ( )
Date: September 16, 2017 10:53PM

badassadam Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not me i fear cults way more than anything the
> government could mustar up but i am pretty scarred
> so.


Perhaps you will always have the greatest fear for what scarred you personally. I don't know. If you were to look more deeply into totalitarian governments, you might come to a realization that allowing a government to make faith-based decisions is ultimately far scarier than allowing someone to choose to join up with an organization that some would consider to be a cult. Except with regard to the most extreme of cults, the application of the label of "cult" will always be a judgment call. A religion to some is a cult to others, and vice versa.

It is my belief that a government can never fully protect the individuals it purports to govern from their own foolishness, from their own gullibility, or even totally from their own vulnerability. Some people as adults have greater ability to look out for themselves than do others. What can be done about that? Not a hell of a lot can be done. We cannot have a two-tiered or multi-tiered system of freedom that grants greater powers of choice and greater liberty to individuals perceived by ranking against measurement of some arbitrary criteria as being higher functioning than are others. The result of freedom is that some individuals ARE going to do themselves in by being overly vulnerable, gullible, or foolish. It's a harsh reality, but it is a reality under our government's foundational document, the U.S. Constitution, and, specifically, the first amendment to said constitution which, among other things, specifies that congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. It would seem that the founding fathers may have recognized that our system of government was in some cases going to err on one side or the other, and their conscious choice was to err on the side of liberty for individuals. Undoubtedly there are individuals who have lived or are presently living within the borders of the U.S. who would have been or would be better served by less liberty and by a more totalitarian structure, but because the rights must be equal to all who haven't given up their liberty by violating laws, for the common good, everyone here who has not forfeited his or her rights has liberty at least to the extent that it does not infringe or encroach upon the liberty of another. With that liberty comes the right to use it to one's own detriment.

No one escapes childhood 100% unscathed. Some parents are abusive. Some are neglectful. Some force religion onto their children to the extent that their children ultimately resent it and in some cases go on to reject any and all forms of organized religion. Others teach their children, either by example or by non-parenting, to be essentially lawless. Between the two extremes are probably a million variations, in part because there is no perfect way to parent with regard to religion or non-religion, and because we're always going to resent what was inflicted upon us in particular.

I am luckier than most in this regard. For me, the parenting wasn't all that bad as I recall it; what my parents did to their offspring is primarily, in my view, the religious equivalent of having allowed us to reach adulthood still believing in the Tooth Fairy and the Romper Room teacher's magic mirror. They facilitated my siblings and me reaching the age of majority still believing in a story that strains the bonds of credulity for any rationally thinking person. I didn't suffer any real abuse from my parents in the name of the church. Others, I understand, were not so fortunate.

I recognize that this is easier for me to say or do than it is for others who survived harsher childhoods than I did. Still, somewhere down the line, a person has to decide either to sink or to swim in this world of adulthood in which we live. What was done to Don, for example, was abhorrent. Most of us, including Don, would probably agree upon that, Yet Don, while continuing to deal with the issues in his own way probably to this day, has gone on to mature and to lead a full life. Don has advocated against anyone raising their children as he was raised, but even he doesn't seem to be wholly comfortable with legislation aimed at banning cult practices. (Forgive me, Don, if I've misconstrued anything you've said.)

Everyone who grew up in this cultish religion or in any other must decided for himself or herself how best to deal with the fallout. Still, one of the worst effects of having been an adherent to an extreme faith is that personal liberties and agency were handed over to a third party, in our case being the COJCOLDS. What you're proposing is to take those personal liberties and agency and hand them to another third party, which is the government. That cannot end well.

Finally, I fully acknowledge that this is far easier for me to say or do than for some others here , and neither can it happen quickly or easily for everyone, but somewhere along the way, each of us needs to come to terms with the effects of this cult-like religion on our early lives, even if the end result were something so devastating as the loss of family to the church, to the extent that we are able to grow up and to function fully as adults. Forever continuing to claim the persona of victims is not helping us, especially if we're seeing the taking of our personal liberties with regard to religion and handing them over to a government [that is not doing particularly well with upholding its present responsibilities, let alone adding exponentially to its powers] as the solution to our problems.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2017 11:02PM by scmd.

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Posted by: badassadam ( )
Date: September 18, 2017 11:23AM

Don is a hero in my book with all that i have read i have seen a lot of parallels between his life and my own atleast with the upbringing. I have yet to get to a point where i can live a real and fullfilling life but if he is doing it then he is a true hero in my book.

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Posted by: Bang ( )
Date: September 16, 2017 11:02PM

For me, this is far more frightening than anything a cult can do, unless the cult becomes the government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

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Posted by: scmd ( )
Date: September 16, 2017 11:03PM

Bang Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For me, this is far more frightening than anything
> a cult can do, unless the cult becomes the
> government.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

For me, too, Bang.

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Posted by: Bang ( )
Date: September 16, 2017 11:04PM

To clarify, it didn't matter if children's parents were in a cult or not. It did not matter what the parents believed. If the government wanted you to "go away", you did.

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Posted by: scmd ( )
Date: September 16, 2017 11:07PM

That is sort of what happens in North Korea now.

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Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: September 16, 2017 11:50PM

I just finished reading a remarkable (but kind of creepy) book about a young man who was born in North Korea and managed to escape.

It is called "Escape from Camp 14," by Blaine Harden, who interviewed the escapee, Shin Dong-Hyuk.

Normal family attachments are not possible there. Everyone is encouraged to rat out family, friends, anyone, for the slightest possible infraction - and they do.

While the young man now lives in the U.S., he is far from assimilated. He has difficulties forming relationships, keeping jobs, or living in one place. As he says in the book, "I am evolving from being an animal, but it is going very, very slowly. Sometime[sic] I try to cry and laugh like other people, just to see if it feels like anything. Yet tears don't come. Laughter doesn't come."

It sounds like a nightmare that has evolved into a country.

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: September 16, 2017 09:43PM

My view is this, if you wren't born in a cult, be very goddam glad. To be a child and have your own parents turn on you in favor of the cult ravages your soul and guarantees a miserable youth.They broke my heart.

I don't know about legislation, but as a human with a voice, I beg you not to do to your children what was done to me.

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Posted by: badassadam ( )
Date: September 16, 2017 09:52PM

Yes i second this donbagley.

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Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: September 16, 2017 11:59PM

I married into a TBM family - as a TBM myself - and gradually, with the help of this board, over a couple of decades, have managed to shepherd everyone out. My DH still "believes," but he has not been active since I resigned, and since he has been to a few other churches with me, he has observes that religious belief does not have to go hand-in-glove with all the hogwash demanded by Mormon culture.

My youngest stepdaughter, then only days past her 18th birthday, caught me typing my resignation letter on the family computer, and said, calmly, "Don't erase it. I want to change it around and use it to resign for myself, too."

The other kids have not resigned. They just stopped being involved.

This family, even in its most TBM days, was never anything like yours. Sundays were boring, with the three-hour block, and my new DH would permit only Mormon hymns to be played for music. Fortunately, he dropped that when he became aware that the kids were listening to their own music via headphones, in their rooms.

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: September 17, 2017 01:55AM

"They broke my heart"

Don Bagley, was your Dad's name Fredo?

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Posted by: Josephina ( )
Date: September 17, 2017 12:40AM

I wasn't raised in a cult, but I joined TSCC when I was an under-aged teen. If I had waited until I was a mature adult, I probably would have lost interest and moved on in my search for God and meaning. I was a lost teen and very, very vulnerable. I spent forty years of my life being afraid to leave because I had become convinced that God would turn me over to Satan and horrible things would happen to me because I had experienced the "Holy Ghost" testifying to me of the "One True Church." Denying the "Spirit" would bring horrors untold!

It was an immense relief to find out that Mormonism is not true. Also scary, because I had to figure out the God thing for myself. But at least I knew that leaving for good wasn't going to put me in the hands of Satan.

I think there is something to be said for a law requiring that people be 18 before permanently binding themselves to a religion. But it would get complicated because many parents have their children baptized as babies. Perhaps baptism should not be considered a permanent bond? But Government doesn't want to interfere with Religion. Perhaps pastors could voluntarily teach baptized children that nothing's permanent until they turn 18 and choose to keep what happened as a child?

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Posted by: badassadam ( )
Date: September 17, 2017 12:49AM

I too struggle with the whole god thing and being in satans clutches mentality. Because if just an average thing goes wrong then maybe its god punishing you, it kind of messes you for a little bit.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: September 17, 2017 12:54AM

In most churches which baptize infants, the child isnt confirmed until their teens or older. This is when they take responsibility for their own beliefs. Besides if you chose to leave, you just leave. You dont get the pressure you do as a Mormon.
Of course it is more complicated for minors because they are under the control of parents

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Posted by: badassadam ( )
Date: September 17, 2017 12:58AM

Yes it is more complicated, i keep trying to go back in time in my head and wonder what i could have done different and i really dont know what i couldve done.

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Posted by: scmd ( )
Date: September 17, 2017 01:35AM

badassadam Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes it is more complicated, i keep trying to go
> back in time in my head and wonder what i could
> have done different and i really dont know what i
> couldve done.

If I were you, Adam, I would try not to lose much sleep over what I might have done differently. What's done is done, and most of it you didn't have control over anyway. You can never totally forget the past if you're like most people, but you don't get to do it over, so don't stress yourself out unnecessarily over things you might have done differently if you'd had the knowledge then that you have now.

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Posted by: badassadam ( )
Date: September 17, 2017 11:52PM

I dont lose sleep like i used to that's for sure. Things are a little more peaceful then what they used to be believe it or not.

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: September 17, 2017 02:02AM

Stan is a cult psyop. Shit happens whether you're "being good" or not. The worst thing that ever happened to me, in fact was being an active Mormon, sleepwalking through life. I'm just glad I didn't sucker anyone else to join.

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Posted by: badassadam ( )
Date: September 18, 2017 11:27AM

I agree.

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Posted by: azsteve ( )
Date: September 17, 2017 02:02AM

In a post in a different thread, I wrote about who has sovereignty over human life in a society, and how that sovereignty gives those who have the sovereignty over your life, power over you.

The mormon church skirted that line by threatening your life in their temple rituals, prior to 1990. They absolutely betrayed everyone's trust in them as they issued those death threats both routinely and ritualistically to everyone who attended the ceremony. Not only did they betray our trust by threatening our lives, they violated the sanctity of the human body by describing in graphic detail, ways in which your living body could be defiled through different forms of painful mutilation as a means of causing your death if you ever choose to give up their secrets. If nothing else, that made the Mormon church a cult.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2017 02:04AM by azsteve.

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Posted by: badassadam ( )
Date: September 17, 2017 11:54PM

It definitely is what made it definitively a cult in my mind. They betrayed us all, and every child in that religion that had no clue what was going on in secret, all betrayed.

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Posted by: Free Man ( )
Date: September 17, 2017 11:30PM

Funny that someone would want the government cult to regulate the religion cult.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6uVV2Dcqt0&app=desktop

I'll take religion over government any day. If you don't pay into government, someone with a gun hauls you to jail. Not so with religion.

I've realized cultists like to support each other's cult. For example Mormons like having many kids which they can't pay for, so they use the gov't cult to extract money from us to pay for their kids education, etc. Each kid in public school costs about 8,000 per year. I've known poor members with 8 kids. No way they could pay $64,000 per year, so they like having someone with guns taking the money from those without kids, like many gay couples.

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Posted by: badassadam ( )
Date: September 17, 2017 11:57PM

I would take the government over throat slashing by sick bastards with twisted minds that accept sexual child abuse anyday.

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Posted by: scmd ( )
Date: September 18, 2017 02:35AM

badassadam Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would take the government over throat slashing
> by sick bastards with twisted minds that accept
> sexual child abuse anyday.


What assurance do you have that no throat-slashing, sick bastards with twisted minds who accept sexual child abuse are involved in government?

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Posted by: badassadam ( )
Date: September 18, 2017 11:28AM

I will take my chances.

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