Hi Tim,
Thank you for your interest in chatting with a member of the Church.

Now chatting with: Kylie and Lauren
Kylie 4:56 PM
Hi Tim, how can I help you?

Tim 4:58 PM
Hi. I was reading the Book of Mormon and it talked about how God turned the Lamanites skin dark when they sinned and light again when they repented and dark again when they sinned again.
It also says in the Book of Abraham God did the same thing to the descendants of Cain, turned them black. Is that something Mormons still believe, that God cursed two whole races of people with dark skin because of the sins of their fathers?

Kylie 5:00 PM
The dark skin was not the curse, but a mark of the curse. The curse was not having God's spirit with them. The mark was to identify those who were following God as opposed to those who weren't. And the curse was withdrawn, and does not apply today

Tim 5:01 PM
Do you believe God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow?

Kylie 5:03 PM
That was originally a mark of the curse, and the curse did not apply to anyone after it was withdrawn, but the mark still remained on some. Yes we believe that God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

Tim 5:05 PM
So if God used to turn white people dark skinned in the case of the Lamanites and descendants of Cain, why wouldn't he have turned Hitler as black as coal and Gandhi as white as the driven snow?

Kylie 5:05 PM
the curse was having His spirit withdraw. God's spirit will still withdraw today if we are not doing what he has asked us to

Tim 5:07 PM
But he used to turn people black for sinning and white when they repented and black again when they sinned. Why wouldn't he do the same thing today so we'd know who was a sinner and who was righteous if he's the same today as he was yesterday?
I don't know how you can believe something so blatantly racist, long after it's been disproven by the DNA evidence. It seems really white supremacist to me.

Kylie 5:09 PM
that was a mark of the curse so that those who were obeying God could know who was not obeying God. He doesn't need to do that all the time because we can tell by the Spirit who is obeying God, and who is not. It is not white supremacist, it is simply taught in the Bible and the Book of Mormon. Do you believe the Bible to be the word of God?

Tim 5:10 PM
Where does it say anything about white or black skin in the Bible? It's only Mormon scriptures that talk about white skin being good and black skin being bad, not the Bible.

Kylie 5:11 PM
Honestly it all comes down to if you believe the Book of Mormon is true, and trusting in God. Have you ever prayed about the Book of Mormon?

Tim 5:12 PM
What's written in the Bible depends upon what you believe about the BoM?
I just asked where in the Bible it says anything about dark or white skin? It doesn't as far as I can tell.
I've searched, a lot.
Can't find anything about skin tone in the Bible. Anywhere. That's a Mormon thing. Not a Christian thing.

Kylie 5:15 PM
I know, and I apologize. I misspoke (or typed). I am not sure off the top of my head where it is in the Bible. But I do know that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. And that God loves all of his children equally, no matter color, gender, age or anything at all. But the Book of Mormon is simply a testament of Jesus Christ. We are Christian too.
but we are not here to argue, or try to prove you wrong, but to simply testify of the Book of Mormon, and of Jesus Christ.

Tim 5:16 PM
If you're Christian, why do you have a representation of an Egyptian Fertility God (Min) with an erection in your Book of Abraham, Facsimile 2, Figure 7, Identified as "God"?

Kylie 5:17 PM
Honestly, I am not sure. I don't have all of the answers, but I can transfer you to someone who might have more answers than I do.

Tim 5:18 PM
Didn't God say don't make any graven images of him in the 10 Commandments? I'm pretty sure he didn't want you depicting him as an Egyptian Fertility God with an erection!

The chat session has ended.

I never really saw the organization as racist growing up but i guess they were more than i thought. Maybe i was just a blind idiot to it all.

Even though I was raised in the church, my family was pretty liberal and well educated.
I never really took the whole "Curse of Cain" seriously or the idea that God turned Native Americans skin darker than white people's because of what it said in the Book of Mormon. It always seemed really racist to me, but in the interest of "Family unity" I went along with the faith I inherited.
It wasn't until I was raising children in the church who started asking serious questions about racist Mormon Doctrine that I realized I couldn't continue just ignoring the fact that the scriptures are blatantly racist and so is the doctrine.
Mormon Doctrine never changed, they just keep in on the DL now days because it sounds so GD racist to say that dark skin in the sign of the curse god put on people when their fathers sinned.

My bishop told me a few things growing up.
1. You are blessed to be born during this time the latter days you were most valiant in the pre-existence.
2. You were born in America
3. You were born WHITE

Over and over and over at 12yrs old and on. I was conditioned. The church should be held responsible for this crap.

Yep, classic White Supremacist tribalism.
You're better than "Others" by virtue of the fact you're a white, Mormon and they're not. Our Racist prick God loves you more than he loves them 'others'.
Classic Group Think 101.

Yes i was told that crap too. We were all taught the same programming. Which i have to fight and realize i am really not that special compared to everyone else. It was actually a worse life to be in the church then to be someone not raised in it. There was nothing special about me, it was all a lie they told every single white person. It kind of reminded me of hitler and his valued aryan race when i was growing up.

I do find these chat with the missionaries amusing, but they always end with you bringing up the God Min and his erect penis. Can it really surprise you that much that the missionaries immediately bow out of the chat session? I don't think you're going to find that many missionaries who are willing to tackle such convoluted and esoteric issues online. Not that the issues aren't important; they are, and understanding them leads one to understand that Joseph Smith was a fraud and a con man. But you are never going to be able to convey all of this in time before the internet missionaries stop talking to you.

Just saying.

Jeremy Runnells, said that was the most shocking thing he discovered in his research Authoring his CES Letter.
I agree with him. How the hell did that detail escape me for 40yrs in the Morgue?
Because nobody breathed a word about it.
I aim to change that with Mormons. I don't want to be the guy who never breathes a word about the fact they're hypocrites for having no problem packing porn around in their scriptures, yet have a huge problem with homosexuality.
I think it's amazing that nobody in 40years breathed a word about the fact my scriptures had a pornographic depiction of a pagan fertility God in them. I don't know how anybody can claim they're Christians when they have a pornographic depiction of a Pagan God in the scriptures ID'd as "God" when that's clearly pretty blasphemous considering the God of Israel made that point pretty clear in the Bible.

I never understood that picture or facsimile either. Never understood why that was in the scriptures.

All you can really do is plant a seed. Most Mormons I know will not entertain a conversation with someone that even discusses things like erections or penises, because they're so conservative and Victorian in pretty much every respect, including sexually. Compounding that is the reality that not only is their coveted/oh so inspired book of Abraham nothing but a bunch of quasi spiritual mishegoss, it's been misinterpreted and includes a depiction of a god with a raging boner.

I mean play that conversation through with your TBM mother, or grandmother, or any conservative long time Mormon you know. At some point they will figuratively, or maybe even literally plug their ears and refuse to continue to listen to someone blaspheme their religion. Of course they don't stop to consider the fact that it isn't blasphemy; it's the truth. However way they choose to slice it, their coveted book of Abraham includes a picture of a god with a boner.

My mom would slap me in the face for bringing this up with her. And you know what? I would maybe even peak her curiosity to the point where she would look it up and realize that what I told her was true; she would rationalize it in some respect, of course, but she would still feel disrespected by me.

Which is understandable. I guess my point is know your audience.

If the curse has been withdrawn, why hasn’t the mark of the curse been withdrawn?

I gotta agree that bringing up Min's schlong soured what could have been a shelf-weakening moment for these poor mishies and was hoping you were going to ask why "Lamanites" and Africans still look "non-white" if there's no curse--there should be no mark if there's no curse; if they are true believers they should "enticing", right? Of that's right, the church people are encouraged to marry "generally in their same racial group."

But, but, didn't God create the appearance of different racial groups based on their sin!?!? That's what the obvious conclusion is, based on LDS theology. So if a TBM has a "flat nose and black skin" (according to BY) they are "not enticing" to a TBM of another (white) color?? They still have the curse, right? No? Then why don't they look like Jullianne Hough?

And of course the obvious follow-up to *that* is the question of "What color and appearance should someone have if they follow all the church's teachings? Do they become white? What color were they in the pre-existence? What color will a faithful non-white person be in the Celestial Kingdom?"

I'd say these are legit questions for someone who is really trying to understand mormon scripture, and should make a missionary's head throb with cog-dis'.


Anyway, the only apologist explanation that I can recall for Min's big dong is "...ancient Egyptians had no problem depicting things because of a different attitude about sex."

WAIT A MINUTE: THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE A RELIGIOUS, JEWISH TEXT FROM ABRAHAM, NOT AN EGYPTIAN STORY."

The only answer they have that is the infamous "Well, Joseph didn't translate the papyri as such, he used as a catalyst for revelation."

Do they know how stupid they sound....?

https://cesletter.org/debunking-fairmormon/book-of-abraham.html#9

"One of the most disturbing facts I discovered in my research of Facsimile 2 is figure #7. Joseph Smith said that this is “God sitting on his throne…” It’s actually Min, the pagan Egyptian god of fertility or sex. Min is sitting on a throne with an erect penis (which can be seen in the figure). In other words, Joseph Smith is saying that this figure with an erect penis is Heavenly Father sitting on his throne."

FairMormon Agrees
that Joseph identifies Egyptian god of sex, Min (with an erect penis) as “God sitting on his throne."

FairMormon says...
With regard to the nudity (and the phallus in particular), the Egyptians had no cultural reservations about depicting nudity, unlike our current society. Therefore, the depiction of Min and his phallus is used by critics to create an absurdity: that Joseph would dare to associate such a figure with God the Father. Critics snicker and joke about how silly it was of Joseph to equate ‘Min, the phallic God’ with God the Father. To ancient Egyptians, however, there would be no absurdity in doing so. Joseph simply equated both the god Re and the god Min with "God sitting on his throne."

JEREMY'S RESPONSE TO FAIRMORMON
Again…by this logic, Zeus, Thor, Apollo, Aphrodite, Ares, Odin and the rest of the gods are all "God the Father.”

Joseph Smith wasn’t an ancient Egyptian and ancient Egyptians’ phallus god, Min, was not the Mormon or Christian god.

What’s absurd is Joseph’s claim that this Egyptian pagan god with an erect penis, Min, is Heavenly Father. This is like someone in the 19th century claiming that the ancient Norse god Odin is Elohim and Odin’s son Thor is Jesus Christ.

It wasn't just the critics who sensed the awkwardness of the Prophet Joseph Smith pointing to an ancient pagan Egyptian sex god with an erect penis as representing our Heavenly Father. The Church sensed it too.

The following are Facsimile 2 in different editions of the Pearl of Great Price. Notice the censorship of Min's penis in the 1902 and 1921 editions before the Church decided in 1981 that it would probably be a great idea to put the penis back on:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

No wonder I didn't notice it.
My scriptures were from the 70's and didn't include God's dick pic. Apparently, emboldened by the defeat of the ERA, the MORmON patriarchy decided the time was right to reinsert God's well endowed dick pic into their scriptures, the way Joseph intended.

I bring this up in about every conversation I have with Mormons when it comes to Mormon Doctrine. They act like I am the pervert for pointing out their perverted divine dick pic they pack around in their scriptures. I'm pretty sure if they knew, most "Christians" would find a dick pic of God to be highly offensive and blasphemous.
But somehow sexually repressed and uptight Mormons have zero problem with packing around a dick pic of God in their scriptures or with the fact Joseph Smith and Brigham Young abused their power to sexually exploit (aka, rape) their followers wives and teenage daughters.

In the 1980s, some "appropriate" official seminary activities included the coloring of this famous facsimile (which had been enlarged to poster size). I guess it was supposed to be an uplifting experience. While it is true that I never attended seminary, save for one week. I did complete a "homebound study packet." That's where I discovered the directions for the color/label handout. In case you're wondering, I passed one year of seminary with a D-.

Pigmentation of the epidermis aside, the troubling part of this exchange to me is that unless you are behaving exactly as God says, he withdraws the spirit. "No soup for you!"

So those that need His Mormon Highness's inspiration and guidance most are deprived of it. This is sort of like sending food and supplies needed desperately by victims of disasters to Beverly Hills instead. Just when your are struggling and you need Mormon God most--He's not there!


As far as the dark/light skin goes, I don't know how you defend this "mark of the curse" thing without realizing upholding the idea is making you look stupid, shallow, and racist. Mormons! Hanging onto every last shred of indecency they can grasp. And the God cursing people with skin colors really makes me wonder if Joseph actually wrote the novel at 14 after all--as the -plot is so very immature in storyline development.

I say keep the penis in.