I've been coming to this site every day for about a month now, I love the support that I get from it. Because of the things I have read here, and because of my new view on things, I was able to have a very important conversation with my two sons that didn't serve missions and that left the church in their late teens. I told them that I no longer believed that the church was true (which was a shock to them) and I told them that I am glad that they didn't serve a mission and that they learned that the church wasn't true when they were young. I spoke to both of them separately and they both said, "Thank you for telling me that, it means a lot to me." I wish I hadn't put the pressure and guilt on them to serve a mission, but can't change that now. It's a miracle that I was able to break free of the cult thinking.

I wanted to share this with you all. Now a question about miracles...

What do you thing about miracles that we were taught about in church like the miracle of the sea gulls and other similar stories?

about the seagulls, etc., and give you information on where to find things to read about them. I know I've read about the seagulls miracle, but I can't remember it right now. In fact, I was just talking to my nonmo boyfriend about why seagulls are the state bird in Utah. There is always a good story behind these miracles. One of the things I read that really put to rest some of the miracles about the trek west was "Devil's Gate." It was EYE-OPENING.

I was still active, but questioning, when my little boy was born. My brother was disabled and went on a mission. He never should have gone. He was a changed person when he came back. The minute I laid eyes on him, I told my little son that he would NOT be serving a mission. He just told me recently (he'll be 32 soon) that when they'd sing "I Hope They Call Me On a Mission" in primary that he was so happy to know he wouldn't have to serve one.

It is also a miracle I'm out.

Okay, here's the hidden part of the seagull miracle, per Will Bagley's research, which I have absolutely no reason to doubt, and all I'm doing is paraphrasing what I read:

Seagulls like to eat crickets/locusts. They've been doing it for even before Nephi arrived in the Americans, and even before real events. So that first harvest time, the arrival of first the crickets, and then the seagulls was the same old cycle. But the church made a big to do of it, allowing it to be called a miracle, for obvious reasons.

In the early 1850s, the crickets came back, but not so much the seagulls. And so without the 'miracle', the saints fell on hard times, so much so that severe rationing was instituted by the government/church of Deseret. There some very lean years, due to the abundance of crickets and the scarcity of seagulls.

But the church has seen to it that that part of the history of Deseret remains shrouded.


Well, whoop de doo. I found where I 'reported' on this earlier:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1682884,1682944#msg-1682944

By then the Mormons had worn out their welcome, so the seagulls said "Fuckem".

I've been blessed with some signs and wonders as a believer, though not necessarily only during the time I was a faithful Mormon follower.

Some of my prayers have been answered to the point I knew it was from divine intercession. There was no other explanation for those when they happened. That was during and following my time as a member of TSCC.

As far as Mormon beliefs about miracles they are no more adept at receiving faith strengthening signs and wonders than other people do IMO. If you've ever read the Guideposts magazine you'll find that those things happen across all segments of society.

There are some faithful, sincere, and very devout LDS. I don't believe for one second that God withholds his blessings from them because they belong to a cult. The same God who created us in his image answers the prayers of all his children IMHO.

Regardless of what religion (or lack of one,) someone adheres to.

As for the tale of the sea gulls, wasn't there so I really can't say. I'd have to see the signed signatures of those witnessing it before giving it the credibility it deserves. To the early saints if that indeed did happen, then describing it as a miracle would be giving credit where it's due.

It would've taken a miracle to have prevented the Mormons from masquerading as Indians to slaughter the Fancher party passing through Mountain Meadows. God doesn't prevent evil either.

JudyQ Wrote:
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Way to go with your two sons. You're right, you can't change the past, but going forward you can be honest and open -- and they clearly appreciated that.

> What do you thing about miracles that we were
> taught about in church like the miracle of the sea
> gulls and other similar stories?

'Miracle' is a word that stands in for 'I can't explain this.'
Nothing more.

As for the 'miracle of the sea gulls,' it appears very likely that nothing like what we were told ever actually happened anyway -- the story, as in a game of 'telephone,' grew more and more 'miraculous' over time.

http://www.mrm.org/seagulls

Thats my explanation for miracles as well.

In other words, I don't believe in them.

They don't exist.

Sorry, mi vida, I have to disagree, slightly...

What do you call it that you and I finally met, after crossing paths at:

Las Vegas, NV, 1961 when I was the busboy one row away at the T-bird hotel

Disneyland, 1962, when both of us were at grad night, May.

Mr. Steak Restaurant, 1968, when I was the grill cook and you stopped in with your sister's family

Rowland Heights, 1976, when I bought a home there, after first looking in your nearby city...

Whiskey a Go Go, 1981, when I was there serving a subpoena on that bass player in the band you were there to see...

Then miracle of miracles, February, 2011. Whew!! Can I get an amen?

Ok Ok Hands down.... you win!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It was the miracle of all miracles . A miracle to end all

Miracles.

AMEN MI VIDA , AMEN.

Not to be picky, but I do believe there's a difference between miracles and destiny.

From Young Frankenstein: "Destiny...Destiny...You always know what's right for me!"

Cheers!

Whats the difference???? Tell, tell.

elderolddog Wrote:
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> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5IWHt4OoNk


What did he say???? I couldn't understand.

"Frau Blucher"


...how quickly they forget...

Every time someone said her name, even when she said it, the horses would whinny, and rear... It was a running joke.

But that's okay - I don't get "Godfather" references, unless it was in the book.

OMG!!!

Are we believing in God And Jesus again?? Isn't that where miracles come from????


I've been wrong before.

Miracles periodically occur in my life and others.

I think the 'recognition' of miracles in sometimes as important as the miracle itself.

Yes, miracles are not explainable to most but do in fact have a reason and some can be explained but most people won't believe the explanation anyway.

I can't explain 'others miracles' but most in my life are clearly explainable.

I think the most 'recognizable' miracle should occur when you meet your future spouse. My brother married a 'British wife' and we discussed the many 'things' that had to occur through out his life to be in a position to even meet her.
The 'feeling' that occurred then and not before should also be considered as a potential miracle.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2017 05:12PM by spiritist.

Miracles do not exist period.

Your sons are lucky. Happy for you and I can understand why it meant so much for you to tell them. Makes me happy vicariously and I don't even know you. would have loved to hear that from my mom.

The Mormons are just one big pocketfull of miracles aren't they? Well, the Seagull miracle can't compete with staffs being turned into snakes or the Nile turning blood red, or the parting of the Red Sea though. I'm really really really sure those all happened too. Like no doubt about it. Like, for sure! :)

I was always told there were no seagulls in Utah because they hang out at the Sea and so they came in all the way from California just to eat the crickets. Well they wouldn't just eat them, they would get their fill and then vomit them up and get some more because, well, you know the Holy Ghost was running their show and they knew they were doing Heavenly Father's work.

No. I didn't make that up. Legends,myths, and miracles have a way of growing.

(pre-1978 mormon humor)

Why are crows black?

Because they wouldn't help the seagulls eat the crickets.

Ok...now I can't resist...

Why do elephants paint their toenails red?


So they can hide in a strawberry patch.




Have you ever seen an elephant in a strawberry patch? Nope...because it works.

It all depends on what standards of evidence you are using.

Check out the book Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan and you will have more information to define "miracle" rather than accepting every coincidence and exaggeration as a "special" miracle.

I'm very impressed that you had that conversation with your sons. Children do not realize that their parents were not born experienced. I think you gained a lot of respect in their eyes by telling them that and being honest.

Demon Haunted World should be on the Exmo's required reading list.

I personally love the quote by Einstein - it encapsulates how I view life - we share that 'vision.' I leave the Physics to him. :)

"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."