teaches as policy that members who leave do so because they are lazy, offended, sinning or otherwise have lost the spirit.

Anyone have any thoughts on this including whether they disagree and think that the Church leaves room for people leaving because they have proof the Book of Mormon/BOA are fiction, that JS was lying about the first vision etc?

Thanks

My reason for leaving was finding out the truth about the origins of the church. Not offended. Not lazy. Not sinning (other than coffee). Didn't lose the spirit because I never felt the spirit. I left because my brain told me to.

When you self report as departing for theological reasons, they hear, "I'm sinning and have lost the spirit."

is it the Church's policy that people who leave are lazy, sinning, et.

or is there room in their policy for people who leave because the origin claims are objectively fictional?

Partial response: "Yes, I left because I'm OFFENDED by fraud and fiction masquerading as historical truth."

Try putting the TBM on the defensive. "If I left because I want to sin, how am I sinning? By drinking coffee and tea? Why was Coca Cola and Pepsi one a 'sin,' but not anymore? What about the moderate use of alcohol like the Savior certainly did?"

"I redirect the time and energy, that once went into callings, to myself, my job, my family, my community. How is that 'lazy'?"

There is no official policy on this. Like with anything else, the church is shifty and evasive. The official policy is the church is true, so if someone leaves, the reason has to be something wrong with the person.

makes it a policy - or teaches from the pulpit that people who leave are only doing it because they are lazy, sinning, offended, other bad deeds?

or have they left open policy or teaching wise the idea that people can leave because the historical claims are not believable?

I've heard leaders say be nice to those who leave, but I've never heard of one acknowledging that historical claims may not be believable.

"The church is true, so perceived historical inaccuracies are just temporary glitches, and these will be ironed out in the fullness of time," said every church flunky ever

Here's an LDS Living article giving the top five reasons "Why People Leave the Church."

http://www.ldsliving.com/5-Justifications-People-Use-for-Leaving-the-Church-and-Why-They-re-Wrong-/s/76260

Their #1 stated reason: being offended.
#2: not understanding the doctrine
#3: It's just too hard (to be a mormon)
#4: (wrongly) convinced by anti-mormon literature
#5: Sin!

So in their top five, they have your 3. Offended, lazy (it's just too hard!), and sinning.

publication is produced by the LDS Church?

inquisisive Wrote:
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> publication is produced by the LDS Church?

From their web site:
"LDS Living Magazine is an independent work, and is not an official publication of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The views expressed in the magazine are the responsibility of the various authors and do not necessarily represent the positions of the Church. Contributors include Church members and members of other faiths."

Which is, essentially, a cop-out. It's published by Deseret Book, which is "...a wholly owned subsidiary of Deseret Management Corporation, the holding company for business firms owned by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church)."

So it is published by the church, but they give themselves an "out" as to the stuff in it being "doctrine."

It clearly does, however, represent the current thinking of the church/members.

The church can never say there are valid reasons to leave the church. Therefore, they keep claiming we were offended, lazy, etc. Our fault, never theirs.

Hey, we've all been there. We know they teach that as policy. You gotta remember that these are people who seriously believe that conman Joe saw God and Jesus and Peter and James and John and Moses and Hercules and Zeus and whoever else, that secret passwords and handshakes will get them into heaven no matter how spiteful and dishonest they are and most of all that their underwear has magical powers.

The more the world progresses, the more technology takes over our lives, the more bigotry, misogyny and homophobia are labeled personality traits of the truly ignorant, the more people are trusting their doubts. So I think it's even more important now to have a policy that it isn't possible for people to leave the church for intellectual reasons, only for sin, laziness and offence.

Unfortunately, they have no clue how many social non-believing members are in their midst. There are many in every congregation each Sunday. I mean how many of us were there under cover of darkness (figuratively, of course)? They just don't want to accept that and make a place for them before they lose them. The ones who are able to do the social mormon thing, usually for family reasons, have to figure it all out for themselves. TSCC tolerates them especially if they have children who are still future investors even if the parents gave up the tithing after figuring out the hoax of the temple. They can't see that they could still bleed those people of a small pledge or something if they'd acknowledge that the demographic exists big time and it's time to practice some inclusiveness.

Is it policy? No.

Is it the cultural belief? Yes

There is a difference. But definitely not policy

angela Wrote:
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> Is it policy? No.

It's certainly a policy to never say there are valid reasons for leaving the church.

I think there's a sense among LDS members that there are people, particularly well-educated ones, who leave because they disagree with doctrine and/or church leaders. However, the believing members typically don't know the specific objections inside and out, so the former members' disaffection is attributed to "the sin of pride," "looking beyond the mark," Nephi's trope in the Book of Mormon about when they are learned they think they are wise and hearken not unto the enticings of the spirit or whatever, and other trite phrases they like.

Basically, the idea is that Satan led them astray by getting them all puffed up in their own accomplishment.

After awhile being out of Mormonism, figuring it all out doesn't seem like much of an accomplishment or intellectual feat. It was pretty easy to figure out intellectually--but working through the emotional aftermath was tough. And far from being puffed up, I was humbled by the experience. Life was so much more uncertain, after I became certain that I was no longer certain (see confusing).

Spot on , Snowball!

I read something the other day, I think JS said it: 'When Apostates leave the church their hair goes gray, they get wrinkles and turn brown skinned.'

This is the one that I've heard the most--Pride. It's definitely what I was told about why people wouldn't join. Any time a smart, successful person left, the Mormons would start tut tutting about how that person thought they knew so much...blah blah blah.

My mom home preached that anyone who looked happy or successful and wasn't active Mormon, was really not happy and certainly not successful in the things that mattered. I believed her for a very long time.

"This is the one that I've heard the most--Pride. It's definitely what I was told about why people wouldn't join."

It's definitely what I've been told by by wife whenever the issue of my not joining comes up. That, and that I've been deceived by anti-Mormon literature written by unwitting pawns of "The Adversary".

I don't hear it so much lately since she's been inactive...she's still telling herself, the missionaries, and HT/VT that she's just "less active". We haven't discussed her reasons for being less active, so I can't say whether it is due to pride, laziness, offense, or church history. All I know is that we've had an argument whenever we've discussed my pride being an obstacle to joining. As long as she's moving away from the church, albeit slowly, I'm not going to mess things up by trying to micro-manage her departure.

Damn right, I was offended !!!!

It offends me every time that MORmONS demand to play the victim in Missouri AS IF they had never done anything at all to bring
trouble to themselves.

I get offended when certain people LIE to me, Manipulate me with LIES in God's name, and then steal from me by using their LIES in conjunction with the name of God, and then I find out what really happened.

My Ultra TBM cousin quipped about some one who had quit the MORmON scam "Joe has intellectualized himself right out of THE (MORmON) church." AS IF the guy had done something wrong. IS there any better reason to quit being scammed, conned, cheated than becoming smart enough to no longer tolerate it ????

Here: From John Dehlin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZQJc5SxnVs

Not offended...AWAKENED!

I remember a closeted exmo stating that the question of why members leave (with the expected lazy/offended/sinning answers) popped up in a church lesson for the priesthood. I believe it appears in GD and RS lessons as well.

Since all TBM's "know" the BofM is true, how can they admit someone left for finding the truth? Truth, for them, can only be found within the tenants of Mormonism.

I'd be satisfied if they could just report that we left because we lost out testimony. But why do they have to vilify us by proclaiming us sinners and sloths? While talking with a temple worker about my change in beliefs I told her that I "studied my way out of the church". If Mormons want to deride us for studying or being too intellectual I can handle that. But making-up unfounded character flaws is not kosher in my book.