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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: December 18, 2017 11:10AM

Adam Lee writes ...
==========================




"I’ve been reading a column by the economist and Federalist writer Lyman Stone, The Great Baby Bust of 2017. He says that as recently as 2009, the U.S. had replacement-rate fertility, meaning that at least as many people were being born as there were people dying. (The replacement rate is 2.1, meaning that the average woman has to have that many children for the population to be stable.)

Since then, our fertility has been declining. Data from 2016 shows a fertility rate of 1.82, and provisional data for 2017 suggests the U.S. fertility rate has fallen further, both nationally and in every state. Even Utah, home of the famously fecund Mormons, has dipped below replacement. Stone frets:

I am worried about fertility in 2017. I am very concerned about fertility in 2018. I am scared of what fertility numbers will be in 2019, especially if a recession hits somewhere in that period.
And he’s not the only one: Republicans like Paul Ryan have discovered the falling birth rate and are demanding that women have more babies for the good of the economy, although this sudden panic doesn’t motivate them either to support family-friendly policies or to roll back their racist immigration bans.

Stone expounds further on these ideas in an editorial on Vox, in which he argues that we have to do more to encourage people to procreate. He says that financial incentives aren’t all that effective: generous parental-leave policies give only a small nudge to the fertility rate. He also says, to his credit, that social-conservative policies banning abortion and restricting contraception don’t have much of an impact either. However:

Cultural forces, meanwhile, can be extremely powerful but are difficult to engineer, especially in big, culturally pluralistic societies like the United States. Douthat’s preferred prescription (and my own), that people should be more religious, may have a very limited impact.
Why would making people more religious help boost the birth rate? The obvious answer is that religion indoctrinates people into desiring bigger families. But it does so in a way that’s deeply unfair and oppressive to women, since it’s inherently tied to religious dogmas that value women solely for their fertility and restrict their ambitions to being mothers and homemakers.

In any case, Stone seems to accept that browbeating people into being more religious wouldn’t necessarily help, as economic and cultural forces appear to be more powerful even in societies where religion remains influential:

Even societies with high religiosity, such as in Africa or much of Eastern Europe, have seen falling birth rates. This decline in religious countries (including where religiosity is stable or rising!) is surprising, because religious groups tend to place a high priority on family, children, and multi-generational living.
In all of this, there’s a question he never really addresses: Why is it a catastrophe if our population shrinks? A plummeting population would be bad, but we’re nowhere near that kind of Children of Men dystopian scenario. Even if fertility is below replacement, it’s only by a little. That means our total population is on track to decrease, but slowly, over decades. Why would that be so bad?

Here’s the answer he gives:

In a low population growth society, inequality is more easily entrenched, parental wealth more easily passed on to heirs, new startups are less able to expand rapidly, and declining generational cohort sizes reduce the need for certain classes of labor (child care and education most notably).
If you’re concerned about inheritance cementing wealth inequality, there’s an easy solution: Raise the estate tax. Encouraging rich people to procreate so their assets spread out among many heirs is a convoluted way of solving this problem.

If anything, negative population growth could be an economic good. If a shrinking society has less demand for teachers and daycare providers, it’ll have more for other jobs, like nurses who care for the elderly. By reducing the supply of labor, it’ll mean that workers are more valuable and have to be paid more, reducing inequality in the long run. (Ask any capitalist, he’ll tell you that a big pool of desperate, replaceable employees is what he likes best.)

A low population growth environment means the economic pie grows slower too — which means, in the long run, that wealth consolidates. And in the very long run, we miss out on potential Mozarts, Washingtons, and Edisons.
This is an especially absurd fear. Stone is worried about having so few people that we won’t have any more geniuses.

Again, a simpler and more direct solution to this problem is to provide good education, nutrition and a stable upbringing to the 7.6 billion people we already have. I can guarantee there are at least a few unsung geniuses out there already, if only they had the opportunity to let their talents shine.

Economic growth can come from increased productivity, making us more efficient and able to do more with the same resources. That’s the kind of growth we want. The economic growth that comes from simply producing more people to consume more resources is the bad kind of growth. It puts further strain on a planet that’s already taxed to the limit.

By some estimates, we’ve already overshot the planet’s carrying capacity for human beings. We pollute more than ecosystems can absorb, harvest more wild animals and plants than their populations can sustain, use up more arable land and fresh water than the planet can provide. Most of our growth over the last century has come from using fossil fuels. Since those are nonrenewable, this is like eating the seed corn: it keeps you going for the time being, but sets up an even bigger disaster later on.

The lament of “not enough babies!” often comes from racists whose real fear is that whites will die out and people of color will take over the earth. I see no reason to believe this is true in Stone’s case. However, it’s curious that he devotes so much effort to fretting about fertility rates without first making a detailed case for why a smaller population would be bad. He seems to take it for granted that his readers will share that assumption.

I’m not going to say there are “too many” people, because that implies a value judgment on the lives of people who already exist. Here’s how I’d put it: There are enough people for anything the human race might reasonably want to accomplish, whether in science, technology, art or literature. Even if our population shrinks from 7 billion to, say, 4 or 5 billion, I see no reason to believe that wouldn’t still be true. We can accomplish more by teaching and raising up the people we’ve already got than we can by cranking out as many as we can without concern for their welfare.

In many ways, having fewer people would be a positive good. It would mean less strain on overtaxed natural systems, giving the planet a chance to recover from our depredations. It would reduce war and migration and promote peace by lessening the pressure to claim every square inch of land. It would mean we could devote more attention to and invest more resources in each child (the demographic dividend).

Big families may be emotionally appealing to some people, but that doesn’t make them the right choice for everyone. Personally, I don’t think any government should be in the business of telling people to reproduce.
Whether to have children, and how many, is such a deeply personal decision that I find it deeply unsavory for the state to involve itself at all. Pro-natalist policies, like Stone’s bizarre suggestion to publicly honor parents with at least four kids, are just as creepy and intrusive as China’s one-child policy.
I’d rather see a world where every person should be entirely free to seek their own vision of the good life, whether that means no kids, or one, or many. I’m confident that civilization will survive whatever we do."

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Posted by: commongentile ( )
Date: December 18, 2017 11:56AM

How many human beings we need depends on how fertile Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother are and how many spirit children they have who are waiting for human bodies to dwell in.

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Posted by: GregS ( )
Date: December 18, 2017 12:00PM

I would have thought that was obvious. ;)

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: December 18, 2017 12:06PM

Which brings up the question, does Elohim plan on stopping?

If not, then does that mean a future new Jesus, etc.?

While I'm at it, why can't he forgive any of the one-third who reveled? Why bother with the "return of the prodigal" story?

I'm starting to get suspicious about the whole ghawd thing!

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: December 18, 2017 12:28PM

Such limited thinking.
"The only way we can grow economies is the same way we've always done, by reproducing wildly!"
Which is, of course, complete BS.

The primary drivers of large families for the past many thousands of years have been a)high infant mortality rates ("we need to have a lot of kids 'cause only a few will survive!") and b) a desire by parents to have lots of kids take care of them in their old age. The first is no longer an issue in the developed world, and becoming a non-issue worldwide. The second is negated by good education and jobs for fewer children. People all over the world recognize that, and are having less children -- because there's no need to have a bunch. Fewer get more resources/attention from parents, have a better shot at having their parents provide a good life/education. And with birth control available, *both* parents get to actually DECIDE how many to have, and when (mostly!).

It wouldn't bother me one bit if we leveled off around 8-9 billion, or shrunk from there. It wouldn't bother world economies, either. It would make feeding and educating all of them easier.

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Posted by: Fascinated in the Midwest ( )
Date: December 18, 2017 12:34PM

With a declining birth rate, doesn't that burden the younger generation with much higher tax rates for the increasingly-benefits-needy elderly?

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: December 18, 2017 12:38PM

Fascinated in the Midwest Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> With a declining birth rate, doesn't that burden
> the younger generation with much higher tax rates
> for the increasingly-benefits-needy elderly?

In the short-term, yes -- but only if tax rates are lowered on the wealthy (the vast majority of which tend to be older!).

When the rate stabilizes, that's no longer the case.

Once the "boomers" (like me, at the tail end of the boom) die off, the "big bump" in the older vs. younger population mostly goes away.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: December 18, 2017 12:44PM

All I know is it's time to concentrate on quality, not quantity.

Population-wise, less really is more. I am sick of the stripped oceans and the stripped rain forests and the need for everyone to be able to have everything they want in a throw away society.

From one of the last songs written by Leonard Cohen who often used religious toned lyrics to make biting points . . .

" . . . As he died to make men holy, Let us die to make things cheap."

Says a lot about where we are now. What do we get with less people? Less pillaging of the earth and less need to eat shrimp raised under questionable circumstances in China.

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Posted by: logged out, nli ( )
Date: December 18, 2017 01:11PM

But, but… what about, you know, *prophets*?

James Faust sez:

"I next address the present-day challenge to the words of the Lord recorded in Genesis: 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.' All my life I have heard the argument that the earth is overpopulated. Much controversy surrounded a 1994 United Nations International Conference on Population and Development held in Cairo, Egypt. No doubt the conference accomplished much that was worthwhile. But at the very center of the debate was the socially acceptable phrase 'sustainable growth.' This concept is becoming increasingly popular. How cleverly Satan masked his evil designs with that phrase.

"Few voices in the developed nations cry out in the wilderness against this coined phrase, 'sustainable growth.' In Forbes magazine a thoughtful editorial asserts that people are an asset, not a liability. It forthrightly declares as preposterous the broadly accepted premise that curbing population growth is essential for economic development. This editorial then states convincingly, 'Free people don’t "exhaust" resources. They create them.'

"An article in U.S. News & World Report entitled '10 Billion for Dinner, Please' states that the earth is capable of producing food for a population of at least eighty billion, eight times the ten billion expected to inhabit the earth by the year 2050. One study estimates that with improved scientific methods the earth could feed as many as one thousand billion people. Those who argue for sustainable growth lack vision and faith. The Lord said, 'For the earth is full, and there is enough and to spare.' That settles the issue for me. It should settle the issue for all of us. The Lord has spoken."

Faust really said that. One thousand billion. One trillion people. Try to wrap your mind around that hellscape. Also, that's a lot of potential gold fillings to be harvested.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1995/09/serving-the-lord-and-resisting-the-devil?lang=eng

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: December 18, 2017 01:42PM

My mother's condensed version of what Faust said, is, "I don't worry about population because the Lord is in charge. The Lord will provide." This is her way to wear her faith on her sleeve.

And, the phrase, "Free people don't exhaust resources, they create them" is a joke. I guess every agenda needs a cute catchphrase.

It's one thing that Faust said something as self serving and ridiculous as that. It's even scarier how many will see his sick agenda as inspiration. Such a desperate speech is proof that the Mormons need the members to pump out tithe payers now more than ever.

Eighty billion people on a planet provided for? We aren't even providing for the 8 billion on the planet now. Heavenly Father is too busy picking winners of Sports events, selecting politicians, and deciding who gets a cake, to ever be able to feed 80 billion even with the fish and loaves trick he trots out at parties.

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Posted by: BeenThereDunnThatExMo ( )
Date: December 18, 2017 03:42PM

In my view the biggest travesty ever foisted upon humanity was when some ignorant goat-herder wrote the words, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth" in some worthless tribal text that somehow survived through the ages!

Please don't get me wrong...I am not a "tree-hugger". But doesn't the natural world that surrounds us with its flora & fauna intrinsically have a right to survive as well?

Human over-population and encroachment are quickly destroying eco-systems that will never again be able to be revived or exist.

My spouse and I have no children by choice.

We have generationally ceased our "carbon footprint" on this planet due to our non-progeny.

Sheesh...we can't even get a tax-break for that.

Nope...that tax-break goes to those who are procreating...go figure that one out for us???

We are less drain on the system but WE don't get a tax-break.

That tax-break will also eventually go to the welfare mother we stand in line behind as her 6 screaming kids (all under 7-years old) can be heard echoing throughout the cavernous Costco that we frequent. All the while as she pulls out food-stamps or nowadays an innocuous looking "credit-card" style way of paying. Heaven forbid she should be shamed in any way by paying with the old syle food-stamps coupons.

Was there ever such a vibe on this planet of only having as many kids as you could afford???

Why is it that the predominant vibe is some feel entitled to have kids just because they can???

I better stop now...before something else ignites!

Or so it seems to me...

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Posted by: Lilac ( )
Date: December 18, 2017 09:15PM

We are kindred spirits! I wish I could upvote!

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Posted by: CateS ( )
Date: December 18, 2017 03:48PM

Zero.

Humanity is a scourge on the planet.

If you think there is no value in the planet without humans dominating it, then you probably won't agree with me.

I'm not the only person who feels this way. Kurt Vonnegut felt the same.

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Posted by: CateS ( )
Date: December 18, 2017 03:58PM

I know the above was an appeal to authority or appeal to celebrity or some other such fallacious appeal. But Vonnegut was a very sensitive writer.

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: December 18, 2017 07:00PM

Vonnegut imagined us evolving back into dolphin-like creatures and being happier for it.

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Posted by: csuprovograd ( )
Date: December 18, 2017 06:34PM

No matter what humans do to the planet, it will survive...perhaps greatly modified, but it will survive. Who knows? Maybe we go extinct and things get better around here. The only way it will cease to be is a cosmic collision of some kind that causes catastrophic damage.

Yes, we seem to be slowly beginning to realize that we can alter our lifestyle to impart less destruction of the current condition of our planet-so there's that.

I see no reason to bemoan and curse humanity's existence. We didn't ask to be put here (at least to my understanding).

We simply need to continue to refine our lifestyle and discontinue doing things that can be done in a better, less destructive way. We're pretty smart, given a bit of time, much of our destructive habits will be eliminated with smarter methodologies.

Count me out for the lemming exercise, please. I am a consumer, I admit, but I use my best judgment to respect the planet and other species who live here, and I refuse to feel guilty for being.

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Posted by: CateS ( )
Date: December 18, 2017 07:16PM

The only way we'll choose smarter methodologies to replace our destructive habits is if those smarter methodologies make us richer, fatter, and get us more sex.

That's what's been the motivator thus far. We are so brain stem driven. Why would it suddenly be any different?

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: December 18, 2017 06:59PM

Seems to me we are vastly oversupplied.

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Posted by: spiritist ( )
Date: December 18, 2017 08:09PM

World governments are very counter productive in this area.

Tax, welfare, etc. etc. incentives to have kids. So who has the most kids ---- those that love the incentives they get from the government. When we should be incentivizing 'couples' that can afford to have kids in the first place. Tax and other incentives should only be given to people making a specific minimum income based on their family size.

Also, our refugee/invader program. You can't and don't destroy the 'earth' enough in 3rd world countries. Come to Europe, US, Canada, etc. so your whole family can learn how to drive cars, use more energy to heat/cool your house, etc. etc.

These policies make little sense from anyone claiming to care about 'global warming'!!!

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Posted by: Anonymous1234 ( )
Date: December 18, 2017 08:50PM

Put a stop to chain immigration. Over-population problem solved.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: December 19, 2017 12:35AM

Population is going to be dropping. If the current economic model doesn't work with a shrinking population, then we'd better find a different economic model.

We're clever. We should be able to do that. stop hyperventilating.

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