...and saw the following headline:

"Mormons give Trump highest support of any religious group in poll".

More reason to be done with Mormons.

Another thinly veiled liberal political post disguised as anti-Mormon. Ok. I'll bite. My friends, family, co-workers, business associates are all non mormon, yet we whole heartedly approve and support our current president. The worse presidents in US history: #1 Woodrow Wilson #2 Ulysses S. Grant #3 Barak Hussein O'Bama...

Just goes to show that mormons do not hold a monopoly on poor judgement. They just do it with greater frequency than other groups.


HH =)

I'm wondering how many exmos on this board will be moving to Haiti? And if not, why not?

MormanNoMoreMan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The worse
> presidents in US history: #1 Woodrow Wilson #2
> Ulysses S. Grant #3 Barak Hussein O'Bama...

I have to disagree with your list. (As) I have LBJ ahead of several of your contenders. but I would give you a good grade for effort

The really funny thing is that LD$ inc core leadership was actually quite opposed to a Trump presidency ....to the extent of actually preferring Clinton over Trump but they could not actually say that or it would have broken traction with their well conditioned precious tithe paying flock.

.....the other funny thing - IF R-money is elected Utah Senator it is most likely going to evolve into an open running spat between the senator from Utah and the US pres, which will be a PR nightmare for LD$ inc.

This is true.

Several weeks before the election the First Presidency had local leaders read in church a letter saying that members should vote for the person with the best personal morals. That was soon after the Access Hollywood tape was released, also after the anti-immigration rants. (We know that while the church is generally conservative, it has long, and to the chagrin of many of its members, supported liberal immigration policies because that's where the membership growth is.)

The Q15 came as close as they could to endorsing Clinton, something I am sure was very, very uncomfortable for those dinosaurs.

This is yet another area where the church and the leadership are moving in different directions.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The Q15 came as close as they could to endorsing
> Clinton, something I am sure was very, very
> uncomfortable for those dinosaurs.
>

Your statement definitely reveals the prejudice of your interpretation of the matter.

I for one certainly would not conclude that Hillary Clinton's personal morals win in a contest with Donald Trump's. (Yes, even given the then-current accusations).

One must never assume.

Ah, you are right. Donald Trump is a paragon of personal virtue.

My bad.

Your post does, however, beg the question.

If the membership supported Trump before the election, as it did, and the church hierarchy was comfortable with that, why did the First Presidency feel it necessary to issue a virtually unprecedented statement to all the wards that in this contest members should seriously consider the candidates' personal morality when making their decisions?

To my naive and prejudiced mind, the First Presidency's extraordinary move suggests discomfort with where the church was heading. Could it be, I wonder, that smirkorama is correct and it is you whose biases are clouding his (or her) judgment?

Perhaps the First Presidency shares your views and was just saying, "yeah, me too!"

Lottie, I didn’t see implicit support for Clinton with the statement. Evan McMullen was runnng as a newcomer, man of faith, and possessor of strong morals. Many TBMs were torn between supporting a candidate who couldn’t possibly win and man whose personal values were repugnant to them.

My own take was that when the TBMs walked into the polling booths, they’d vote for Trump.

My sincere appreciation for your ability to craft very powerful, throughout posts. I’m anxiously looking forward to November to see what happens with the Congressional elections. It should be a slaughter for Republicans, but predicting elections this far is folly. Chaste Hugs, The Boner.

What, me wrong? Impossible!

Seriously, I hadn't thought of McMullen. I am not sure he was serious enough at the time to merit implicit endorsement by the church. But it could also be that the Q15 was just trying to distance itself from both Clinton and Trump.

It was a really bad election for the church. On the one hand was Clinton, a narcissist with a monumental sense of entitlement and someone whom under normal circumstances I could never have supported. On the other was Trump, a man with zero personal principle (pro-choice Democrat, major Clinton supporter, suddenly transformed into anti-Romney, anti-family values Republican) who opposed the liberal immigration policies that the church views as critical to its own interests.

Moreover, the church probably saw that members would ultimately vote for Trump and that Mormonism would become more firmly associated with the reactionary right in the public's eye. Given that the radical right profoundly dislikes Mormons, that association would harm the church both domestically and in its missionary work abroad. One of the major forces behind the missionary program is other countries' fondness for the prestige that the US used to enjoy. That has been in slow decline for decades, but Trump's foreign policy (if one can dignify mercurial xenophobia with that term) is surely doing much greater harm to the missionary effort.

After all, one of the few parts of the world that has been converting rapidly is the "shithole" countries.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>after all, one of the few parts of the world that
> has been converting rapidly is the "shithole"
> countries.
________________________________________________________

I sure hope Trump's 'shithole' remark does not reduce the amount of 'foreign aid' the US has been getting from the these 'generous, wonderful' countries!!!!!

Yes, because that is the measure of the utility of bilateral relationships.

You are so. . . big picture.

I don't think Romney would be a PR disaster for the church. I think the membership would rally around one of their own in an instant. That would close the breach between the leadership and the common folk.

Romney has already been washed and anointed, the archbishop is moving forward with the crown, and I’ve got Zadok the Priest playing on the stereo...

I'd delete Grant for the list of "worst" and insert Millard Filmore or Franklin Pierce.

MormanNoMoreMan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Another thinly veiled liberal political post
> disguised as anti-Mormon. Ok. I'll bite. My
> friends, family, co-workers, business associates
> are all non mormon, yet we whole heartedly approve
> and support our current president. The worse
> presidents in US history: #1 Woodrow Wilson #2
> Ulysses S. Grant #3 Barak Hussein O'Bama...


Hilarious that Trump can't be mentioned without a Clinton and/or Obama reference. Clearly, his supporters are unable to form a paragraph without such a crutch.

There's nothing thinly veiled about the OP. If the shoe fits, wear it.

If you think one must be "a liberal" to be repulsed by a foul-mouthed, uncouth ignoramus, you must practice highly selective reading. Vast swaths of the entire planet find him to be of the offal cut of politicians, and no amount of gourmet dressing can hide it.

Maybe you should actually read the article. Even the Mormons who support him don't like him, but then, they force themselves into all sorts of undesirable behaviors.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900007499/mormons-give-trump-highest-support-of-any-religious-group-in-poll.html

The name of the church is spelled "Mormon," not "Morman."

And President Obama is NOT Irish.

MormanNoMoreMan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Another thinly veiled liberal political post
> disguised as anti-Mormon. Ok. I'll bite. My
> friends, family, co-workers, business associates
> are all non mormon, yet we whole heartedly approve
> and support our current president. The worse
> presidents in US history: #1 Woodrow Wilson #2
> Ulysses S. Grant #3 Barak Hussein O'Bama...

This ^^^ is white privilege: someone with not a fraction of the education as President Obama, lecturing the ex-professor of Constitutional law on the Constitution.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2018 02:02AM by newcomer.

>>My friends, family, co-workers, business associates are all non mormon...

I've still got that beachfront property on the Great Salt Lake I'll sell you, the one right next to the duck hunting club...

Here are some facts to put up against these "reality challenged claims":

Trumpf's popularity figure is still below 40% by most sources (other than Fox Noise); that figure alone suggests "No Man" is yanking our chains since the only geographic location where that is likely is Happy Valley, possibly Provo or Springville...

Obama is already rated near the top ten by most historians (and higher than Reagan and JFK in my book), and that shot at Woodrow Wilson isn't supported by actual historical reality, either.

Honest, that green jello is known to cause brain damage, seriously.

By typing, "This thread is a shit hole...", which am I, for or against Don Trump?

The freakin'stock market is, as they like to say, "writing checks they really can cash!"

To many of us this is very distracting!

Fascinating how trying to change someone's mind about politics is so much like trying to change someone's mind about religion!

...and "both sides" view *apoliticals* with something approaching disdain.

Save this headline for the next time you hear them claim they don't get involved in politics or how "squeaky clean moral" they are.



Mormons don't get to pretend they are not political or they don't endorse a candidate.

Mormons don't get to pretend they are all about taking the high moral ground.

All they can say now is they are a greedy corporation out to get more power and wealth. THAT is what that headline says to me.


Edit: changed they to them



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2018 11:18AM by dagny.

As complicated as religion can be, politics is more so. No wonder it is difficult to be on the same page on this topic.

Even though I tend to be a bit more on the conservative side I realize there are elements within both parties that are very corrupt. Both the Clinton's and the Bushes are utterly corrupt and I could name many more.

CORRUPTION in government is what concerns me and should concern everyone as it's bi-partisan corruption. I believe we can all agree that it's not OK to let it continue unchecked.

What constitutes good policy or bad policy is another discussion and is also very complex. Perhaps we will some day learn to enjoy friendly political discussion here but I realize it would detract from the stated mission of this forum.

Although I'm not a big fan of LBJ. Wilson stands as the worst. Maybe Clinton, Johnson, and both Bushs' can tie for fourth worst. You get extra credit for participating though. Actually as O'Bama's unconstitutional and anti-american policies are being dismantled steadily, he may diminish to being behind those previously mentioned; but I would still put him in the top ten worst. As far as Haiti goes, let the libtards, socialists, and other fanatics vacation in that s#&t hole, I'll stick to Cozumel, Cancun, Bahamas, or Belize.

Today I learned that Obama was Irish.

Ignoring the bombast in most of your post, a couple of policies if I may.

You say Obama's policies were unconstitutional. You used the plural. Can you name two or three of his policies that have been found by the supreme court to have been unconstitutional?

Do you contend that eight years of Obama actions have produced significantly more supreme court holdings of unconstitutionality than Trump has achieved in his first year? Because, seriously, your statement is meaningless unless Obama acted unconstitutionally eight times more frequently than Trump has.

If the answer to either of those questions is negative, we may feel compelled to conclude that that assertion too is mere bombast.

In 2021 when Democrats control both houses of Congress and the White House, they will joyously revive every single one of Obama's policies, but twice as extensive this time, plus a lot more, and this time, make it all stick.

It will be the end of the pro-Trump, pro-Republican minority in the United States being allowed to govern like a majority -- forever.

The poll was not about comparing Trump to other Presidents or to his opponent in the election. This was strictly about approval of Trump. The fact that 61% of Mormons approve of a "Grab em by the p***y" sexual predator who has a long history of bigotry (see his first ever mention in the New York Times in 1973), shady business dealings (numerous bankruptcies, American banks refuse to do business with him), and numerous divorces and affairs, to me is proof positive that Mormons have no case for any moral high ground.

For whatever bad Obama may have committed, and his stand against Israel is one of them. He had a strong stabilizing influence on our country, and managed to pull it up from the worst economic recession since the Great Depression that GW Bush dragged us under with by his bullish economics that favored the wealthy and sabotaged a country.

His quiet, calm demeanor and diplomacy speaks volumes over the shenanigans of the poor excuse of a president who is currently serving as charlatan-in-chief.

Obama was a peace maker and a deal maker who got things done quietly without fanfare.

Mormons heiled Hitler in Germany above and beyond the usual Nazi fervor.

When I learned that it made me want to puke.

Between Trump v Hitler, there isn't a heck of a lot of difference. Trump kept Hitler's writings on his bedstand. His first wife Ivana said in a 1989 interview it was his bedtime reading night after night after night after night.

He immersed himself in fascist ideology long ago as he was aspiring for higher office. It was his training platform. Similar to how Hitler fashioned his views after Mussolini.

Money, sex and power. Very white and delightsome. Makes Joseph Smith proud. Now let's follow Monson's legacy and go shopping.

It's interesting considering that a lot of TBMs refused to vote for Trump on moral grounds. I think they went for a write-in candidate, but I can't recall his name.

Evan McMullen. Most of my family voted for him.

Some of my TBM family in the inter-mountain West, was goo gah for Evan McMullen.

He was at least an alternative to Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dumb.

Yes, that's the man. My Utah Mormon friends voted for him. They couldn't stomach voting for Trump.

(and my 'twins separated at birth' thread was taken down; too political you say?

No doubt about it, as much as it is claimed that this site is about RFM, its much more about political fanaticism. I have observed the zealotry of Mormonism has definitely carried over into the political views of many adherents here. Perhaps Mormonism and fanatical anti-american liberalism aren't that much different after all...

Your criticism of "the zealotry of Mormonism" would be more persuasive if your views didn't coincide so precisely with those of most Mormons.

And what does it say about you, that your posts are among the most politically zealous I've ever seen here?

Mormons don’t establish their own identities. They go with what’s assigned, so ultra conservative. That only helps the young liberals exit faster. Hopefully, Nelson changes nothing.

I am exmormon after all, fanaticism should come as easily to me as it does to many of you. Fortunately, I reasoned my way out of mormonism, and still put that good sense to use. I am glad the distaste of mormonism did not taint me enough to send me in a blind rage to accept whatever was as extreme left as possible.
Thanks to many of you for making my point...

See my analysis above, and note the poster who took you to task for the spelling of "Mormon."

It's possible you left the LDS Faith, but joining the Kingston Clan or the Allred group really doesn't count.

You don't get out much do ya cab driver? The moniker is a play on words, as was the apostrophe in Barry Sotero's alias. He's not Irish, of course; but he sure wasnt born in America either. It sounds like you should broaden your info sources though. Fake news propaganda spreaders like CNN, WT, WP, etc;, don't count. There's a whole wide world out there away from the bubble of the valley that you live in. Mormons didn't elect Trump, America did. I imagine a lot of mormondom didn't vote for him at first. With a choice like Hitlery though, most probably figured they had no option.It hurts when your idealogy isn't popular,huh?

"Hitlery." Cute.

On September 15th Trump said on national television that "President Barack Obama was born in the United States. Period." What's up with that? Is Trump part of the "fake news propaganda spreaders" about which you like to rant?

And while we are on the topic of your incisive posts, do you have that list of supreme court findings of unconstitutional actions by Obama? Or are his contraventions of the constitution just another of your articles of faith, an assertion that is true no matter what the facts?

Your intellect is showing, you whose views line up with the majority of Mormons from whom you claim to have emancipated yourself.

Trump was merely a vote against Hitlery in the last general election, I suspect for many voters who would've preferred anyone else to either of the two evils they were faced with.

Neither was a good choice for America.

Trump has clearly established himself to be the greater evil by far than the other, in just one short year in office.

With the mid-terms less than a year away, there is going to be a watershed moment that will spell victory for the other side. And a swift move to remove Mr. Trump from the Oval Office.

Either way, he's impaired the GOP going forward as he's tarnished our image indefinitely globally.

You really believe CNN is "fake news?" Not Fox and co?

Now I'm convinced it is you who doesn't really get out more!

CNN at least tries to be objective, factual and credible. Fox news is determined to plaster propaganda in its effort to prop up a puppet president in office. Scary, dark times we are living in this.