One of the difficulties I have with this board is the extent that believing people are willing to go to justify their beliefs. It seems that most believing individuals have to believe that God is good.

Assume that you were in business for yourself. An individual comes to your business location and says, “if you don’t pay me 40% of your profit I’ll burn your business down to the ground.” My question to you would be, is that a choice or extortion? Only a Christian would call that scenario a choice. Most everyone else would call it extortion. Christianity is all threats. Of course, if you choose “wisely” you’ll be rewarded. An extortionist will make the same offer – if you choose “wisely” you’ll be able to continue doing business, much like the promise of heavenly rewards and eternal life.

Religion is perverse. It teaches people to fear. I don’t understand where fear can be associated with love. Worship your extortionist?

Well, there is Christianity as it is on paper, and as it is actually practiced. Growing up Catholic (and later attending mainstream Protestant churches,) I never knew a single member that didn't think they were going to heaven. Mainstream Christians tend to think of God as being endlessly loving, understanding, forgiving, etc. of their foibles -- rather like an ideal parent who loves you even when you mess up.

>>“if you don’t pay me 40% of your profit I’ll burn your business down to the ground.”

This sounds more like the, "pay your tithing or you will be burned in the second coming" type of mentality that comes from Mormonism. Mainstream Christians don't share that belief.

“Mainstream Christians don't share that belief.”

I beg to differ. Many “mainstream Christians” are of the mindset “accept Christ or burn in hell forever.”

No, those would be the Christians on the far right -- the fundies and certain evangelicals.

I’m not sure where you draw the line between “mainstream Christians” and “certain evangelicals,” but I have encountered many, many of “accept Jesús or burn” variety in my life.

Summer, I'm also ex-Catholic, and I agree with your assessment that Catholics almost universally believe that they are going to heaven. Among the Catholics I know, they generally assume that most other people are also going to heaven unless they repeatedly sin and refuse to repent. Some of them are even lax on suicide being an automatic ticket to hell. For the most part, if you are a halfway decent person, you're OK.

However, that doesn't mean that you're not going to get lectured and berated from the pulpit for failing to make regular donations to the church, or for anything else the church wants/needs. Even then, most members would just shrug in a "yeah, whatever" attitude.

Remember, remember, remember: God and Jesus and what the two of them want are all 100% human inventions. So the question must always be framed in terms of what the projected concept of God says about what the speaker wants God to be like.

I know this is a somewhat difficult concept, because we have all been trained from Day One to think that God is an objective, self-existent reality wholly separate from the human experience. But this is simply not true.

Thank you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2018 09:42AM by slskipper.

I find that the philosophy of “saved by grace” to be one of the most confusing and schizophrenic philosophies of Christianity. If you declare your faith in Christ then you’re saved. So why would baking a cake for a Christian gay couple be a problem? If you can believe in Christ and still can be condemned to hell for your homosexuality then where is the Christian principle of “saved by grace”? If being “saved by grace” means you have to abandon your evil ways then how is that different than being judged for your works?

So no matter Catholic, traditional Protestant, Born Again, or Mormon, God declares if you don’t do it my way you’ll die. It’s call extortion not choice.

I agree. In my opinion, salvation by grace is as messed up as any doctrine in Mormonism.

If God intercedes because of prayer, he is essentially a really poor concierge service.

He can of course also be an extortionist. They are not mutually exclusive jobs.

Let me break this down to simplify it.

You are either a victmizer or not. You may make a mistake, and feel bad about it, or you have become a victmizer.

Victmizers do not fit in heaven. How can a victmizer coexist with all their victims, and all the pain they cause.

Would you want to live with conmen, dictators, sexual, emotional, physical, financial... abusers? Those that put money ahead of the health and welfare of people?

I personally believe that if you don't repent here on earth, with humility, using the atonement to pay for your victimization of others, you will suffer by feeling all the pain you've caused others.

Your victims will demand justice. The first will be last and the last first.

That is a nice sentiment but that is not what Christian's teach. The "victimizer" will be forgiven by declaring their faith in Christ and truly exemplary individuals will be condemned to hell if they refuse to acknowledge Christ.

Christianity is a ridiculous, mind bending philosophy that only makes sense to true believers and leaves the rest of us scratching our heads.

Christian's will be forgiven only if they feel genuine sorrow for harming someone, asking the person for forgiveness, and that Jesus acknowledges that this was done, for his atonement to atone.

Jesus controls who he forgives.

A lot of Christians, Mormons etc erroneously assume that they are freely and automatically forgiven. Jesus decides who is forgiven only if proper remorse is experienced.

Jesus doesn't condone sin, but forgives the humble/remorseful...

So your saying that Christian teaching is that you are not saved by grace alone but also by your works? I think Martin Luther is rolling in his grave.

????

You're saved by your sorrow for sin.

How can Jesus atone for someone that doesn't care who or how many people he's victimized, takes advantage of, used, harmed, negatively affected...

You tell me. My opinion, it's all nonsense anyway?

My point is that no two Christians would agree what "saved by grace" actually means. Catholics, Protestants and Mormons don't have the same concept. Who is there to arbitrate?

Religion operates on threats. God is not suggesting that there is some independent consequence for sin. It is God and God alone that makes the threat and then carries out that threat - hence extortionist.

"You're saved by your sorrow for sin."

Then why do I need Jesus? Why isn't my sorrow enough?

Personally, I agree to some extent. You feel sorrow for wrongdoing, and when that sorrow causes you to never do it again, you've essentially atoned for it. I just don't see the need for a 3rd party savior. That's the part that just seems made up to me...I just can't take it seriously.

Because someone has to pay. Remember an eye for an eye.

Either you pay, or someone else pays, or Satan has you.

In Gethsemane, the spiritual strength of Jesus withstood all the negative of Satan.

People demand justice.

Courts punish people for punishment, justice, rehabilitation, closure...

Because on earth we sin, we should regularly humble our selves, by forgiving others, and by being forgiven by others and by Jesus.

> Because someone has to pay. Remember an eye for an eye.

yes , I remember, it was said by humans wandering the desert thousands of years ago. I fail to make the connection to "god" I guess.

> Either you pay, or someone else pays, or Satan has you.

So says the bible, see my previous comment.

> In Gethsemane, the spiritual strength of Jesus withstood all the negative of Satan.

That just sounds like magic...or star wars.

> People demand justice.

And that's what our legal system is designed to produce.

> Courts punish people for punishment, justice, rehabilitation, closure...

I agree, but the judge doesn't need to forgive them for it all to work.

> Because on earth we sin, we should regularly humble our selves, by forgiving others, and by being forgiven by others...

I agree.

> .....and by Jesus.

Here is where it just falls apart for me.

I'm curious how your God views homosexuality. I don't see a victim in a committed, consensual relationship, even if they're same sex. No victim, no sin?

No victim. It's the sin of not liking the "right" flavor of ice cream.

God likes vanilla, god doesn't like chocolate.

If you like chocolate, god hates you and gives that right of hate to others.

Better start liking vanilla!

Perfect example of the head scratching, mind boggling, absurdity of religion.

That’s a matter of leaders being drunk on power. Kind of like King Noah. Their power comes from making shit up.

No. Just imaginary :)

The questions assumes there is a god, at which point you would need to define what god is. From there, you get opinions, millions of them.

I agree with your sentiment though, "Religion is perverse."

The people claiming to speak God's word are extortionists. Whether they're even god's words is a separate discussion.

The God I believe in is not an extortionist!

There is no 'true religion' associated with the God I believe in ---- in fact there is no true religion.

I assume it is easy to define the 'god' of religions ----- it is the person who get's the money paid to their god!

To further highlight the absurdity of religion and sin I want to focus on marriage and adultery. People of faith think that marriage was instituted by God and that adultery is a sin. The problem with religion is that religion cannot move away from the arcane knowledge of the past because it was supposedly instituted by an all knowing and immutable being. The Bible and its wisdom reminds me of an auto mechanic using a 1950’s repair manual to repair a 2018 automobile. Automotive technology has advanced and so has human social knowledge.

Modernly, in most states, marriage is considered a contract between two people. The agreements that I have with my wife would not be suitable for every marriage. Some marriages allow for what is called an “open marriage”, which in the case of my relationship would be unacceptable. However, others might find it totally acceptable in their relationship. Why should I or God consider it a sin or in the case of God, consider it a capitol offense? It’s a contract between people not a contract with the world or God. Admittedly, children are often the product of marriages and children should be protected. That is a societal interest that actually transcends marriage. That means regardless of your status, if you have a child you have an obligation.

You’re holding hands with your intended and a third person approaches. He pulls you apart and interjects Himself in the circle. Then He dictates the conditions of your relationship and simultaneously issues dire threats – this is your concept of a loving God? No - more fitting of an extortionist.

Or a cuckolding prophet.