DNA tests have shown that Native Americans didn't descend from Jewish ancestry. The Mormon church tries to deny it with the stupid essays and other search marketing tools. It's Mormon bs. Here are several DNA tests that show Native Americans didn't descend from Jewish ancestry. They can be downloaded if you want. They can be hard to understand. The problem is that the Mormon church is not honest, so they try to distort the science behind it.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707617698

http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~tgschurr/pdf/Lell%20et%20al.%201997.pdf

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.589.4811&rep=rep1&type=pdf

http://www.nielsenlab.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Raghavan-M.-et-al.-2013..pdf

While I thoroughly agree that Jews did not become Native Americans in the Mormon sense...the converse is a fact in at least some cases.

When the Spanish conquistadores came to what is now the southwestern United States in the 1500s, it has now been factually proven that some of those conquistadores were of at least partial Jewish descent. They were, largely, "anusim" (in Hebrew)/"marranos" (in Spanish): "hidden Jews," whose families had usually, under severe duress, converted to Catholicism in earlier generations, and who---in many cases---still continued to maintain their [hidden] Jewish identity and at least some parts of Jewish culture (examples are: breaking off a bit of raw bread dough and burning it in the fire before baking the bread...bathing before sunset on Fridays...etc.)

Some of those conquistadores stayed in what is now the American southwest/northern Mexico, settled down, and built Spanish communities. They also, whether through marriage or otherwise, created children with Native American women...and those children then created other children, etc. It was a mixture of Spanish, often "hidden Jewish," and Native American genes...and some of those genes were Jewish, so from today's perspective, a given Native American person whose ancestors interacted with the conquistadores could well have Jewish genes too.

Today, it is known that Spanish-descended Americans (particularly in northern New Mexico) may be carrying (and passing on to their descendants) a genetic marker for breast cancer which originated with the Spanish conquistadores.

Someone I knew well for many years, someone I considered family, died of breast cancer because of this.

There has been a major effort in New Mexico and in some of the surrounding areas (southern Colorado, for example) to get Hispanic women of conquistador descent tested to see if they have this inherited tendency for breast cancer.

In the case of Native American inheritance, there have always been a significant number of Hispanic/Native American relationships...many Hispanics in northern New Mexico have Native American ancestors and current relatives...and there are enrolled members of various Native American tribes who have Spanish ancestry as well as Native American.

Any person from these areas (whether they "present" as Anglo, Hispanic, or Native American in their appearance and/or their home cultures), whose ancestors included conquistadores, is (at least potentially) likely to have some Jewish ancestry as well.

So...although Jews from the Middle East did not become Native Americans (in other words: the Mormon story is bogus), it IS true that at last SOME Native Americans, SOMEWHERE along their genetic line, became (at least in part) genetically Jewish.

And from me to anyone with Hispanic/Native American ancestry from northern New Mexico and the surrounding "Hispanic" areas: Please get tested to see if you are carrying the breast cancer marker. Please. It is better to know, and to take the proper precautions, than to choose ignorance and die. Honest.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2018 12:56PM by Tevai.

Thanks for pointing that out Tevai. Some Mormons are quick to grab onto anything hinting of Jews and claim it is evidence for the Book of Mormon. The truth is quite different and for me far more fascinating.

Secret Mexican diary sheds light on Spanish Inquisition
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-40029453

The ‘Secret Jews’ of San Luis Valley
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-secret-jews-of-san-luis-valley-11765512/?no-ist=

mikemitchell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Secret Mexican diary sheds light on Spanish
> Inquisition
> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-400294
> 53
>
> The ‘Secret Jews’ of San Luis Valley
> https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-
> secret-jews-of-san-luis-valley-11765512/?no-ist=


Thank you so much, mikemitchell...both of these links are absolutely astoundingly good in amplifying, and illustrating, what I was trying to say!!! :D [I printed off three copies of each of them for my files. :) ]

For anyone who is interested in the real historical and cultural background to either of these subjects ("hidden Jewish" historical and genetic heritage in early American history...and the present day, VERY sober, real life medical consequences of this ancestry in Hispanic, Native American, and Anglo families whose ancestors came from the general southwestern United States region), each of these articles are well-written and perfect.

Thank you!!!

:D :D :D



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2018 02:26PM by Tevai.

I find this fascinating Tevai, given the Sephardic hidden Jewish within the Spanish conquistadors lineage.

To date there hasn't been any DNA markers to be able to trace that possibly owing to their blending in well when assimilating to the local culture so they wouldn't be basically murdered for being Jewish.

There are some Jewish communities, albeit tiny, in parts of Mexico. To my knowledge those are Jews that relocated there to practice their faith. From Wikipedia I found following:

"The history of the Jews in Mexico can be said to have begun in 1519 with the arrival of Conversos, often called Marranos or “Crypto-Jews,” referring to those Jews forcibly converted to Catholicism and that then became subject to the Spanish Inquisition.

Over the colonial period (1521-1821), a number came to Mexico especially during the period of the Iberian Union (1580-1640), when Spain and Portugal were ruled by the same monarch. That political circumstance allowed freer movement by Portuguese crypto-Jewish merchants into Spanish America. When the Portuguese won their independence from Spain in 1640, Portuguese merchants in New Spain were prosecuted by the Mexican Inquisition. When the monopoly of the Roman Catholic Church in Mexico was replaced with religious toleration during the nineteenth-century Liberal reform, Jews could openly immigrate to Mexico. They came from Europe and later from the crumbling Ottoman Empire and what is now Syria continuing into the first half of the 20th century.

Today, most Jews in Mexico are descendants of this immigration and still divided by diasporic origin, principally Yiddish-speaking Ashkenazim and Ladino-speaking Sephardim. It is an insular community with its own religious, social and cultural institutions, mostly in Guadalajara and Mexico City. However, since the 1880s, there have been efforts to identify descendants of colonial era Conversos both in Mexico and the Southwestern United States, generally to return them to Judaism."

I wonder how many hidden Jews there may be among the "assimilated" population? It's true in Spain too. Some of my German Jewish cousins who migrated there during the 19th century inter-married into Catholicism, and that's what their children are today. Assimilation was a way to survive for them.

Excellent post, Amyjo... :)

In New Mexico, starting back "somewhere" in the twentieth century, rabbis (probably all Ashkenazi, every single one of them---and most of them, back then, Reform and of definitely NON-Hispanic origin!!!), began to get scattered, and seemingly very odd, non-Jewish visitors to their synagogues and offices: visibly Hispanic people, looking scared, almost whispering (because they were afraid) that they were "Jews," or of Jewish descent.

At that time, Ashkenazi Reform rabbis were not trained in Hispanic history, and so, very often, these rabbis in Albuquerque and Santa Fe or wherever had little or no idea what their frightened visitors were talking about...but it began happening ever more frequently. (At some point, the relevant rabbinical schools began specifically advising new rabbis heading West that this kind of thing might happen to them, and if it did happen, here is what to do...)

Sometime during this general period, I recognized that my Hispanic, northern New Mexico family (not blood related to me) "was Jewish" or "was PROBABLY Jewish" (in ancestry---certainly not in any way in current life at that time).

There was a particular afternoon when I was over at a particular woman's house, and I was sitting on the sofa and "life" was swirling around me (she had several children, and "everybody's" house is "everyone else's" house, if you are inside a northern New Mexico family), and suddenly I realized : "These are Jews."

I have no idea to this day why I realized this; I cannot think of any particular thing that kicked off this line of thinking in my brain, but suddenly, out of "nowhere," I KNEW...

...and I knew I was RIGHT.

I asked some (gentle/polite/non-invasive) questions of certain key relatives, and the result was startled bewilderment, and absolute total certainty that there was NO Jewish ancestry in ANY part of the family going to back to, metaphorically, Adam and Eve.

But I KNEW (even though I didn't know HOW I "knew").

After asking all of the relevant people who might have some knowledge of "that" kind of family history/family tradition, and receiving not even an atom of positive response, I was in a local bookstore one day and came upon incredibly respected, historian Fray Angelico Chavez's book: ORIGINS OF NEW MEXICO FAMILIES: A Genealogy of the Spanish Colonial Period. (Fray Angelico was still very much alive then...he didn't die until March of 1996).

When, in earlier years, I had learned the general family history, there were some "pings" in my solar plexus at certain details (certain family surnames, in particular). I began tracing the "my family" surnames listed in Fray Angelico's book, and I discovered something fascinating: In a defined, small northern New Mexico town and area (the general area was much larger, encompassing several counties), and going back generations, there was a pronounced pattern of certain Hispanic families intermarrying with other certain families...and NOT intermarrying with yet OTHER Hispanic families "outside" of this kind of "marital" bonding.

At some point, I realized that---if I took "my" family as the centerpoint---and I postulated that they were of Jewish ancestral origins, then (going back generations in Fray Angelico's reference book), they were (almost without exception) marrying within OTHER "Jewish"-"identified" families...and NOT marrying people from "non-Jewish" families who lived in the same, very-population-small area.

Whether people realized it or not (and they did NOT---at least, not in "my" family), they were, generation-by-generation, choosing to marry only within "Jewish-descended" historical Spanish families.

No one believed me (of course)...and my lack of questioning results appeared to be the end of the subject...until ["Isabel"], one of the central members of "my" family, got breast cancer, and then died.

In medical research, and following "Isabel's" death somewhat, the link between the particular kind of breast cancer that she had, and "hidden Jewish" ancestry, became scientifically clear.

I will never know or understand why at that moment, on that day years before, when I was sitting on the sofa that summer afternoon and suddenly realized that "these are Jews" happened...

...but it was a true insight, and today it is more-or-less taken for granted in northern New Mexico that, the older a family's ancestral history in the area goes back, the more likely they are to be of "hidden Jewish" descent.

In Albuquerque, and throughout "Hispanic" New Mexico today (and this has been true for recent decades) rabbis of all Jewish movements are well aware that Hispanics of ancestral Jewish descent do indeed "appear on their doorsteps" from time-to-time, and what to do when this happens. In the last several decades, some of these "ancestral-connected" Hispanics/"Anglos" have formally converted "back" to Judaism, while others have chosen to stay Catholic or Protestant.

In any case, and for all of those whose distant ancestors were once mostly-Iberian Jews, there are groups and get-togethers and programs, both live and on TV---especially now, with the known connection to this frequently virulent kind of breast cancer, where there is a real push to get everyone who might be affected medically screened, so lives can be saved with timely treatment if cancer does appear.

My personal takeaway from all of this is: An appreciation of how cultural continuity in our species can be SO tenacious, and how that cultural continuity can be (and often IS) actively practiced within three-dimensional life in the, simultaneously, total absence of conscious knowledge that "the" culture in question even exists on any personal level.

Five centuries later, I was able to know (with what amounted to complete certainty in my own mind) that "these are Jews"---and to this moment I still do not have the remotest idea of WHAT caused me to know this, even as I absolutely knew that what I "knew" (without any "visible" foundation) was true.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2018 03:36PM by Tevai.

That is really amazing, Tevai.

My Hispanic boyfriend from my teen years who fathered my first child that was placed through LDSSS had a checkered past from having been born of Hispanic first generation immigrants. He came from a very large family of siblings. They were itinerant field workers when he was a boy. He later served in the Vietnam War, in the years before we met.

Now I'm going to wonder if his family may have been "hidden Jews?" He had a very high IQ for someone who barely had a HS diploma, if that. He was highly intelligent. Moreso than the average population, regardless of his origins.

When we met I had a strong "deja vue" impression we'd known each other in a previous existence. He is one of three people I've had that deja vu experience with. The two others were like soul mates of mine, like he was during the time we knew each other. They're all deceased now. One of them was a best girlfriend from high school who passed from breast cancer in 2007. I have a hunch that in the after life or reincarnation we are destined to meet up again. But as for his being a "hidden Jew," that would fit who he was. He lived like a "wandering Jew." But he was also a lost soul when he died. I couldn't save him from himself. He gave into his inner demons. He murdered his wife and then took his own. In the weeks before he died he asked me if things didn't work out with his then wife, would I marry him? I shook my head no. At that point I didn't love him like I did when I was a teenager. I was a practicing TBM when we met for the last time. Heaven protected me from him then. After he died his spirit came back to try and hurt me. But I had a real visible angelic shield in my bedroom that night prevent his spirit from entering my room. I could feel the angel of light, and saw the shield between his spirit that was trying to get past the doorway into my bedroom. The angel wouldn't let him past the door's threshold.

My next door neighbors told me in the next couple of days they had each (two separate apartments,) had a sinister spirit in their apartments during the night the night before I had mine. One neighbor felt the evil spirit in her bedroom closet in the middle of the night. The other neighbor woke up to find the outline of his hand reaching for her as she slept next to her husband.

When he tried to come into my bedroom the following night I saw the outline of his hand trying to penetrate the angelic shield that wouldn't let him into my room. It was him looking for me all along, I'm pretty sure, after he died. I pray often, and keep my scriptures near me with the bible facing up, as my TBM grandmother used to do. That's the only reason I can think I was protected from him that night, and before he died. He might've hurt me like he did his wife.

His Hispanic family is VERY close to this day. They are as close as any Jewish family. I haven't actually met them other than a cousin when I was a teenager, but I've seen some of their profiles on Facebook. One of his brothers looks exactly like him, only older. He currently lives down in Mexico after serving as a sub-contractor for the US military in Iraq and Afghanistan for a career. Very tight knit family generationally. That's a Jewish characteristic IMO. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2018 04:11PM by Amyjo.

This is very interesting and educational information. My husband has the Jewish ancestry ( a small percentage) show up in his DNA testing. The country of origin is in South America; does this information also apply for there as well? His results shows almost 70% Native American,22% Spain, and then the Jewish, with a tiny percent East Asian...

valkyriequeen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My husband has the Jewish ancestry (a small
> percentage) show up in his DNA testing.
> The country of origin is in South America; does
> this information also apply for there as well? His
> results shows almost 70% Native American,22%
> Spain, and then the Jewish, with a tiny percent
> East Asian...

Yes, absolutely.

Post-1492, anywhere in the New World where the Spanish explorers went, some of them were undoubtedly carrying Jewish DNA.

valkyriequeen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is very interesting and educational
> information. My husband has the Jewish ancestry (
> a small percentage) show up in his DNA testing.
> The country of origin is in South America; does
> this information also apply for there as well? His
> results shows almost 70% Native American,22%
> Spain, and then the Jewish, with a tiny percent
> East Asian...

Is your husband's Jewish DNA Ashkenazi? How is it distinguished from European to South American? Ashkenazi is European Jewry. The DNA markers for Ashkenazi are the only known markers to my knowledge. What is the other one for South America if you don't mind my asking, if you know? Thanks.

Anytime after 1492 it is entirely possible that Jewish DNA was introduced as the Spanish mingled with natives.
Remember, a lot of Jews lived in Spain.

The Book of Mormon,however, claims that the Nephites/Lamanites are of Semitic descend.
This is refuted by DNA

The Book of Mormon is religious fiction and you can't get DNA from a fake story.

“The problem is that the Mormon church is not honest, so they try to distort the science behind it.”

They’re as honest as they know how to be.

Yes, my husband's is Ashkenazi. My husbands' relatives (grandfather,great grandfather) are from the Southern part of Spain. He also has a bit of Irish and his relatives used to comment at the great grandfather was nicknamed Red Beard because he had red hair and green eyes.

I talked with a man in Taos, NM last summer whose family had murranoes in it. I wish I could remember all that he said---they knew; it's still kept quiet---fascinating.

relievedtolearn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I talked with a man in Taos, NM last summer whose
> family had murranoes in it. I wish I could
> remember all that he said---they knew; it's still
> kept quiet---fascinating.

It is fascinating, and in more recent years (especially with the breast cancer problem being publicized) it is being talked about more, at least within families.

Someday...

Someday...the Inquisition will be truly be over in northern New Mexico, too. (Though I think Taos is going to be a decade or more ahead of the villages. Things can remain "old school" for a very long time in the villages.)

Thank you for posting this, relievedtolearn. :)

If I'm understanding all of this, the 'hidden' Jews that came over with the conquistadores were most likely all male, and they mated with the native women, and thus under Halle Berry law, the native women's children were NOT Jewish. Of course biologically, some of the 'jewish' genetic material was passed on ... and on and on and on, becoming more and more 'diluted' as the generations passed.

Of my five children, only one could 'pass' for Mestizo. And of her four children, only one looks Mestizo.

So the biological jewishness of a line fathered by a Jew mating with a non-Jew gets diluted. And likewise, the biological jewishness of a line of Jewish women mating with non-Jewish men is diluted, but that Halle Berry law says the kids are jewish and the female children can mate with non-Jewish men and their kids are Halle Berry Jews, with increasing dilution of the biological jewishness.

It's called hybridization and it's all the rage, because of the benefits.


As an aside, the odds of an immigrant family from Mexico that made it's living as field hands having any 'jewishness' in their heritage depends a lot on what part of Mexico they were from, and how close their ties to whatever Indian identity they came from. Family 'closeness' has nothing to do with being Jewish. According to literature and the movies, there are many Jewish families that are not close and to make a claim that Jewish families somehow achieve a 'closeness' that non-Jewish families cannot, is pie in the sky.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If I'm understanding all of this, the 'hidden'
> Jews that came over with the conquistadores were
> most likely all male...

The "hidden Jews" WERE [themselves] conquistadores, and they were MOSTLY male.

According to the "Conquistador" article on Wikipedia ( https://en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquistador ): "Castillian law banned Spanish women from traveling to America [in this usage means: south of present-day USA "America"] unless they were married and accompanied by a husband. Some conquistadors married Native American [means: south of present-day USA Native American] women or had illegitimate children." (There could also have been some Spanish colonization taking place in
in Florida, but if so, that's not what we are talking about here.)


> and they mated with the
> native women

Yes, the DID mate with the native women.


> and thus under Halle Berry law

According to Google, Halle Berry is not Jewish, and the "Halle Berry Law" has to do with paparazzi and minor children, and also has something to do with a joke Halle Berry made on the Jay Leno show about Jewish noses, which evidently caused some kind of mini-scandal or something.


> the native women's children were NOT Jewish.

Yes, the children native women had by Spanish conquistadores who were anusim/Marranos ("hidden Jews") were NOT Jewish under Jewish law.


> Of course
> biologically, some of the 'jewish' genetic
> material was passed on ... and on and on and on,
> becoming more and more 'diluted' as the
> generations passed.

This is a true statement.


> Of my five children, only one could 'pass' for
> Mestizo. And of her four children, only one looks
> Mestizo.

I accept your statement as totally factual since I have never seen you and I have never seen any of your children...and this is also true of Halle Berry and her children since I have never seen her, nor any of her children, either.


> So the biological jewishness of a line fathered by
> a Jew mating with a non-Jew gets diluted.

This would be a true statement assuming that there was no "new" "Jewish genetic material" in any specific maternal line. In real life, however, where there are usually or often additional infusions of "new" Jewish genetic material into a maternal or paternal line, this would NOT be a true statement. This becomes important in somewhat later northern New Mexico history. [See below.]


> And likewise, the biological jewishness of a line of
> Jewish women mating with non-Jewish men is
> diluted...

This would be true, too, if there were no additional infusions of Jewish blood into that particular line, but this is NOT what happened in at least a significant number of actual family lines.


> ...but that Halle Berry law says the kids
> are jewish...

No, the Halle Berry law is about paparazzi and minor children, and since Halle Berry is not a Jew, her children would not be Jewish either. (If they wanted to become Jews, they would have to convert to Judaism through circumcision or "symbolic" circumcision, plus going through the mikvah, plus appearing before a Bet Din, which is a Jewish court with a minimum of three rabbis.)


> ...and the female children can mate with
> non-Jewish men and their kids are Halle Berry
> Jews...

No, since Halle Berry is not a Jew, and her children are, therefore not Jews, then her female children can mate with whoever they choose to mate with, but that will NOT transform their non-Jewish children into Jews.

Not even a little bit. ;)


> ...with increasing dilution of the biological
> jewishness.

There is no "dilution of biological Jewishness" because there is no "Jewishness" to begin with. In very simple mathematical terms: 0+0 = 0


> It's called hybridization and it's all the rage,
> because of the benefits.

I fully accept the benefits of hybridization, but hybridization not only has nothing to do with Halle Berry's children re: their lack of Jewishness, it also has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.


> As an aside, the odds of an immigrant family from
> Mexico that made it's living as field hands having
> any 'jewishness' in their heritage depends a lot
> on what part of Mexico they were from...

This is true.


> and how close their ties to whatever Indian identity they
> came from.

No, this is a biological thing...Jewishness is biologically passed through the maternal line, so according to Jewish law, a biological mother who is Jewish would give birth to biologically-Jewish children, regardless of whatever Native American genetics also existed.


> Family 'closeness' has nothing to do
> with being Jewish.

I don't know what you mean here. Sexual intercourse is generally considered to be an anatomically fairly "close" activity, among at least most people, and reproduction (until very recent times) has been pretty much restricted to joint anatomical activities sufficient to create new life.


> According to literature and the
> movies, there are many Jewish families that are
> not close and to make a claim that Jewish families
> somehow achieve a 'closeness' that non-Jewish
> families cannot, is pie in the sky.

I have never made such a claim, and I do not understand why you seem to be asserting that this is somehow part of human reproduction.


[Here is the note I referred to above: The Spanish conquistadores who first explored, and then colonized, what is now the general northern New Mexico/southern Colorado area, came directly from what is today the Republic of Mexico (in other words: south of the Rio Grande). Because they were traveling overland (and NOT across the Atlantic Ocean) the Spanish restrictions on Spanish women traveling with the conquistadores did not apply, so females of all ages and marital states could travel with the conquistadores, and could take part in the Spanish colonization of what is now the southwestern United States. I don't know if there actually were Spanish women with the conquistadores who founded the first Spanish colony in New Mexico in 1598, but there COULD have been...and if there were not women with the conquistadores right then, you better believe they arrived soon afterwards. What this means is that the living situation is instantly "regularized" once wives and other females arrive in the new Spanish colony: for those who were keeping track (and with the Inquisition going full bore, this probably included everyone) Spanish men and Spanish women COULD marry each other, AND---if the woman was Jewish---her children would ABSOLUTELY be Jews.

Which means: in what is now the USA, and from the year 1598 (or thereabouts) on, "hidden Jewish" men could marry "hidden Jewish" women and they would have born-Jewish children (which, likely, only they and probably a few other "hidden Jews" would know about).

"Hidden Jewish" women could marry Native Americans (or have children by them), and those children would be legally Jewish according to Jewish law.

"Hidden Jewish" men could marry Native American women (or any other women who were not Jewish) and have NOT-Jewish children, but those CHILDREN could (when they were of age) marry each other and have children who were, or were not, Jewish, according to if the mother of a new infant was Jewish or not...

...and on and on and on to today, February 26, 2018.

So...by the time 1598 or so rolled around, it was very soon close to "normal life" for the new New Mexican colonists---with the exception that the Spaniards in northern New Mexico were way to the north of where most of the other Spaniards were hanging out a few hundred miles to the south.

And three centuries or so into the future, Fray Angelico Chavez would write his book about the original Spanish families of northern New Mexico, and I would buy a copy of that book, and I (just like anyone else) could fairly quickly figure out "who was a Jew" back then...and who was not...

...and I would learn that incredible lesson about the persistence of human culture through centuries of time.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2018 02:38PM by Tevai.

Sorry about the "Halle Berry" law thing. I was being silly and used "Halle Berry" law in place of Hallal/Halal Law, with that rule about children of Jewish women being jewish, no matter the origin of the sperm... Because when I went to Google to remind myself on how to spell it, all the primary sources say that Hallal / Halal is Islamic!

The reference to 'family closeness' being superior among Jews was, as was the origin of Amyjo's statuatory rapist's family, directed to her, and her assertion that because of his family's closeness, he was likely Jewish. As if by virture of being Jewish, one's family closeness is Superior.

I was happy that you agreed with the major points of my thesis.

"Now go out and take on the day!"
-- Laura Schleshinger

Shocking!
Who knew?