The missionaries visited tonight after p-day looking very tired and depressed! They asked me if I know anyone nearby who has been taught by missionaries before or anyone I know who could be interested. For those of you who have read my story before, I have told in my story that I no longer believe in mormonism and now considered myself agnostic-atheist. This missionary knows I am atheist but because maybe because they couldnt find anymore people to teach, they dont know what to do anymore. I am not mad at them. I am so compassionate towards them coz they are very young to be doing this kind of things! The other missionary have told me that he hates his mission and just wanted to go home but he not like me, he still believes the church may be true although he said he is not a hundred percent sure that it is. I mentioned to both of them all of my concerns about the church which they said they do not know how they could answer.

After, they asked me about people I know they could teach, this is what I told them...

"Elders, I thought the field is white already for harvest ?! I feel very sad to see you struggle for people to teach. I know you have been asking in your prayers to see the fruits of your labors here but God appears to be elusive and unresponsive. I will try my best to help you though but I am blaming God for letting you struggle like that! I am your ally and friend but I am God's enemy. I hate Him for letting you through all of this whether he's real or not. It's depressing since I was once a missionary. I know the pressures of keeping the numbers as high as you can!"

Then I told them this,

"I will be challenging God again this night that instead of making me dumb to death like koriwhore, I will challenge him to send people in droves for you to teach and convert since he promised that he would lead you to them or them to you. He is a liar already for not doing what he promised despite of all your honest efforts! If he is real I will challenge your God to do that then curse me after he proves it! I promise you 100% it wont happen."

They didnt say anything, but I told them that I will accompany them tomorrow to some of my friends and we will see if God would really help them bring this people to church. I am a hundred percent sure God wouldnt do anything coz he isnt real! If he is real, then mormonism is not his church, it must be something else if that even exist. I told them that I am not accompanying them to share my testimony coz they know I dont have one nor will I help them teach! I'll just be there to prove them that their God does not care about them.

They didnt even tell me that by the power of their priesthood, God would show me that he is real or that I will see by tomorrow the hand of God in their work. When they first discovered my concerns, they challenged me to pray and even told me that by the authority of their priesthood, I will receive a testimony that the church is true. It didnt happen so maybe that is the reason they seems to be less confident by now. I dont know maybe these missionaries are struggling with their testimonies too. God if he is real has no right to blame me if ever these missionaries lose faith on him... it's His fault not mine!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2018 08:57AM by knight2284.

I would say with certainty that these 2 missionaries are struggling with their testimonies. That they have opened up to you a little about their concerns is a big deal.

Their concerns are probably even bigger and deeper than they have admitted to you.

Nice.
Fastest way to get somebody to see their religion is a sham:

Put it to an actual test.

It always loses. :)

Right on man! I want them to see the error of their ways hehe.

"Ir always loses"

Not so. They just get angry and few of them leave.

It also depends what you mean by lose. Philosophically practically nothing can be proven.

In fact, when you look at modern life outside the church itnis built on a thousand false premises as well.

I was lucky never to serve a mission. But many do and it is tough on them. I think it's wrong to be mean to them. One of them was an a-hole to me a few years ago and I should have reported it, but in the end, they are young men/women who are trying to please their family in many cases and if they are on another continent they may have nowhere to go.

> I would say with certainty that these 2
> missionaries are struggling with their
> testimonies. That they have opened up to you a
> little about their concerns is a big deal.
>
> Their concerns are probably even bigger and deeper
> than they have admitted you.

I aggree, the other missionaries who told me that he knows the church is true although not a hundred percent sure is totally confusing. I told him how could he say he know and at the same time not a hundred percent sure? If you say you know that means you are sure! It is either you know it or not. It is either 0% or 100%. He said "basta"! I dont know if there is an english equivalent for a Tagalog word "basta", but we usually say it if we want to insist something but we cant also clearly explain why it should be.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2018 10:27AM by knight2284.

knight2284 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He said "basta"! I
> dont know if there is an english equivalent for a
> Tagalog word "basta", but we usually say it if we
> want to insist something but we cant also clearly
> explain why it should be.

Closest English would be "Enough!"
Or maybe in this case he meant, "Close enough!"

At any rate, it sounds like you challenged him and he didn't want to discuss it. :)

Basta is a Spanish word that Tagalog adopted. It means "enough already, stop"

The main purpose of a mission was to "church break" the missionary, so s/he would be obedient to the organization for the rest of their life.

I think it is now becoming a preparation for future exMos. Missionaries are no longer isolated. They know there are people who left no because they were lazy or sinful, but truly didn't believe the party line, and for good reason.

You need isolation for Mormon brainwashing to work. Think Brigham Young's Utah, especially the rural towns, or North Korea now. With the internet and cell phones, that kind of isolation is simply no longer possible for missionaries. Plus they know that essentially no-one wants their product. That's gotta leave a mark.

Oops, posted in wrong place, but close enough for government work.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2018 03:56PM by Brother Of Jerry.

And insightful.

The breakdown in the isolationist techniques is very important. It erodes the foundation of the church.

After bearing my testimony at someone's door, the guy looked at me and said "he did not doubt I had felt something when I prayed, but how did I know it wasn't just some feelings I had worked myself into?" He had a point and I knew it. I put that on the shelf, but at that moment I started to be honest with myself and that got to be a habit.

I think that approach could work on some of these kids. Finding a crack in the indoctrination is tricky and mode of delving into the doctrine often is too big to squeeze through the crevice. It takes something simpler.

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...how did I know it wasn't just some feelings
> I had worked myself into?...

I asked myself the same question.

My answer was, "Yeah, probably."

It's been like this as long as I can remember. But... in this ward we actually baptize at least fifty a year though - it's keeping them active which is the issue. Not many folk stay.

Why would you bring them to see your friends? If I were one of these friends you were bringing missionaries to, I would not appreciate it.

nevermojohn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why would you bring them to see your friends? If
> I were one of these friends you were bringing
> missionaries to, I would not appreciate it.

Well, I would definitely not bring them to people who I know would not appreciate it. I dont hate the missionaries... I just hate the dogmas that binds them. This is why I still welcome them because they are people and they mean no ill against me by visiting me.

I've always operated on don't ask, don't tell. I avoid mentioning my church membership to most friends and I would only send the missionaries over if they specifically asked and none of them have.

I have a Catholic girlfriend and I encourage her to go to her church. She wouldn't be a good fit in the LDS.

About the only thing I have convinced any of them of is that heavy drinking is a bad idea.

Missionaries are fed so much crap about the field being white and all that. But Mormon missionary work is really just high-pressure sales of a product no one wants. Every time some leader hypes missionary work, they should be required to show this clip from "Glengarry Glen Ross."

https://youtu.be/r6Lf8GtMe4M

I was out walking my dogs during ward meeting hours and there were some missionaries out in the neighborhood walking with an older guy in a suit. One of them, who was really tall (I'm 6 feet and he as much taller than I am so he caught my attention) came over to me and asked what ward I attended and I told him I had resigned.

He offered over and over to be able to come over to do service projects, but that they didn't need to discuss religion. He was almost begging. He was such a nice kid and I felt worry for both of the young missionaries. Like others on this board have said, they give the missionaries money or buy them lunch. I'm going to start carrying some money when I'm out just in case I run into these 2 guys again.

I, myself, could have never served a mission and I wouldn't have allowed my son to either.

You might want to point out to these boys that they cannot "know" the church is true because it is a belief system. It's not a factual concept. It's the whole reason religions are called FAITHS not FACTS. Let them know it's okay to say they believe in the church but saying they "know" is telling a lie. Nobody on the face of the earth knows any religion to be true.

Also point out that they know basically zilch about other religions so they have nothing with which to make a reasoned comparison. If they know nothing about Islam, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, etc. they cannot say they, also, are not true. They might be identical to Mormonism for all they know but they don't know because they are not educated in any other religion but Mormonism. That's the major reason sending them on missions is so cruel. They don't even know the whole story and history of their own religion because they haven't been taught even that.

Ask them if they know both sides of the story on William Law. Do they even know who William Law was? If they just took the story that TSCC recites as truth, they have very limited understanding. Do they know who Jan Shipps is? They really should. She is a Mormon historian, sanctioned by LDS, Inc., who gives unbiased facts about Mormonism and it's history as a published author. Do they know all the doctrines within Mormonism that have been changed or hidden just in the past 25 years? Of course not. TSCC wants them as ignorant as possible so they will come across as sincere and innocent as possible. That's all they've got. If they knew what they needed to know to be honest representatives of TCOJCOLDS they would not be trying to teach Mormonism to non-Mormons. It's no wonder they are depressed. They have been sent out by their leaders to fight a battle with absolutely no armor. That's the way I see it. And that's why I feel sorry for the poor kids.

Please open those boys' eyes so they can see how badly they are being used and abused. It is far worse for them to go on believing that they are to blame because they are somehow not worthy to have the Spirit. I'm afraid your plan may backfire and leave them feeling THEY are the problem rather than God. They are not the problem. They need to throw off the yoke of responsibility for a using and abusing church. They are innocent parties in an abusive corporate church that doesn't care squat for them. Does the missionary program send them encouraging letters thanking them for their "volunteer" service? Any other caring church would and does. A friend of mine of another faith received free tuition for his children after his missionary service to South America. They also paid for his housing and maintenance and paid for life insurance if he should die in service. What does the mega wealthy Mormon "true" church give. Zilch. That should make them think twice about how much their glorified prophet cares for them. Ask them why LDS, Inc. refuses to make public their financial records when all the other protestant churches open their bookkeeping to their membership, the government, and the world. What have they got to hide?

Anyway, I hope you can relieve a bit of the guilt those poor boys may be feeling about their lack of success in converting people. It may just save their mental health. You have my permission to let them read this verbatim if you think it will help. And be sure they know I was once a missionary in their shoes. I know NOW what I wish I knew then. It's not too late for them to preserve their mental health and self respect.

Thanks for letting me speak my mind on this matter. Cheers to you and to them.

I've discussed to them before several things you have mentioned. I told the junior missionary (the one who told me that he hates his mission and that he wants to go home) that if he is tired and feeling depressed, my door is open for both of them so we can hangout, be ourselves, talk about other things in life and stuff like that instead of them wasting time walking around and not knowing where to go and who to teach. I told them to forget about their mission rules coz those were inhumane and would just cause them lots lots of troubles.

I knew lots of missionaries who got into a fight just because of the mission rules! I remember one missionary who hit his zone leader for chastising him for not following certain rules. I think the zone leader deserved it. The APs too was shouting at me when they discovered that I bought an mpeg4 using my personal money and he exposed it during zone conferences when I was a missionary. It put me into a total shame and humiliation. They confiscated it then returned it at the end of my misson.

I've been there so I know how these poor missionaries feel. They may have been chastised for having low numbers the reason why they feel so depressed. To somehow ease their burdens, I always invite them to have lunch or dinner in my house and watch some news on TV. I told them they are not breaking their rules because they are in my house and I set the rules here. I remember one missionary before who gave me a letter written by their mission president that was intended for church members. It shows members certain missionary rules like the curfews and watching television. This letter means that when missionaries visit us and we are watching movies or television, we should turn the TV off so the missionaries would not break their rules. That's BS!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2018 01:13PM by knight2284.

Knight, that is a nice thing to do. Better than abusing them like some exmos would do. Kindness spesks louder.

Yeah, even if I am now an exmo and now abandoning my beliefs, I dont need to become an a**hole to these people. I still have my values! I am raised in a very hospitable family and I know how it feels to be a missionary as a mormon! I also think this is the best way of telling them about the truth that has been kept from them. I have the knowledge they dont. This will free them! If we will keep them from our doors and shun them away, how are we different from those TBMs who shun friends and family members who fall away. We should atleast show them the real reason why we left so they would know that it is not always because of pornography, immorality, or we just want to sin! No! We need to show them that there is a better life waiting for them outside mormonism. Maybe someday they would ask themselves, how could god punish people like these, who seems to be more kind than any TBMs I know... that is my opinion.

If those mishs aren't:

a) screwing some gal(s), or

b) M'ing

c) lying on their reports, etc...

Someone's got some 'splain' to do, because the success or lack of it is 100% the actions of the missionary...

That's how it was told to me by my MP anyway!