I was not favorably impressed by the church's "Purpose and Vision" statement, under "Welcome". It doesn't sound like the focus of mainstream Presbyterian churches I've been associated with. It sounds Praise-focused and eerily fundamentalist.

Here's the kicker - Under Staff, there's a list of Elders and Deacons. Not a one of them is a woman! That is not at all normal. Not a good sign.

For me, I'd have to steer clear of this church. It might do for you, but when there are no women in the supervisory roles, I don't believe that's a good sign.

Maybe that doesn't bother you, but it sure would me. You should make sure this isn't a male dominated church, unless you like that kind of thing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2011 05:33PM by serena.

...think that their own religion is completely fine and problem free. This isn't just a Mormon problem, it is a problem with religion in general.

The fact is that most religious groups tend to move away from rational thinking and closer to feeling-based thinking. In and of itself, this is harm and all of them take part in it.

I had a debate with a person that claimed his Methodist church treated gays fairly, and with respect. I pointed out that the Methodist church did not ordain gays as minister and this sort of discrimination was not fair or respectful, but they argued away!

My sister is an ordained Presbyterian minister who got her PhD from Princeton seminary in 1988. She has been a minister at several churches but has held other jobs between those church positions.

Currently she attends the Unitarian church. Presbyterian churches are one of the big white churches and they tend to be conservative. My sister gets fed up with the presbytery because they don't make attempts to attract minorities. Also every year the whole gay minister issue gets shot down by the conservatives. The current policy on gays is unofficially don't ask don't tell. She knows gay ministers who work under the radar but refusing gays the ministry is just medieval.

The smaller the church the more individual it will be. She has been the minister at some of the smaller churches but wont have anything to do with the church in the college town in which she resides.

My advice is to ditch the Presbyterians and check out the local Unitarians.

They were devout members of the choir, and the director was openly gay, as well as an excellent director and musician. It came to some of the ultra-conservatives that his title was Minister of Music (he had a Master's degree in sacred music), and since he was gay, after holding this post for years, they saw to it he was fired because of that.

Disgusting.

My parents could not stomach this, as well as other junk this group began to institute, so they quit and rejoined the United Church of Christ, a pretty "liberal" church.

Pres church that doesn't really believe in any doctrine of God but only pretends to. These types of Presbyterian churches abound! Sorry; you seem to have found one that actually is one of the few left that believes in the Bible and it's God.

Poor girl.

out

If you are interested, I don't see any harm in trying it out and seeing if it is something you might like. If you don't like it, don't go back. I have been to plenty of churches, including Pentacostal, out of curiosity and I have never been hassled to return.

in positions of leadership.

serena Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was not favorably impressed by the church's
> "Purpose and Vision" statement, under "Welcome".
> It doesn't sound like the focus of mainstream
> Presbyterian churches I've been associated with.
> It sounds Praise-focused and eerily
> fundamentalist.

Oh how HORRIBLE! Say it ain't so, Joe!


> Here's the kicker - Under Staff, there's a list of
> Elders and Deacons. Not a one of them is a woman!
> That is not at all normal. Not a good sign.


I personally would never attend a church where the main (senior) pastor is a woman, as that is against God's design. As Paul pointed out it isn't right for a woman to be teaching a man. It was Eve who was deceived in the garden of Eden, not Adam. Women are more emotional and more easily deceived, and men aren't subject to hormones ("that" time of the month).

(I know, I know, tons of you will scream at this, but this is the Bible's teaching (and I know, HOW HORRIBLE!! (or, as Jim Rome would say, "The Horror"!) :P

WM Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> serena Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I was not favorably impressed by the church's
> > "Purpose and Vision" statement, under
> "Welcome".
> > It doesn't sound like the focus of mainstream
> > Presbyterian churches I've been associated
> with.
> > It sounds Praise-focused and eerily
> > fundamentalist.
>
> Oh how HORRIBLE! Say it ain't so, Joe!
>
>
> > Here's the kicker - Under Staff, there's a list
> of
> > Elders and Deacons. Not a one of them is a
> woman!
> > That is not at all normal. Not a good sign.
>
>
> I personally would never attend a church where the
> main (senior) pastor is a woman, as that is
> against God's design. As Paul pointed out it
> isn't right for a woman to be teaching a man. It
> was Eve who was deceived in the garden of Eden,
> not Adam. Women are more emotional and more
> easily deceived, and men aren't subject to
> hormones ("that" time of the month).
>
> (I know, I know, tons of you will scream at this,
> but this is the Bible's teaching (and I know, HOW
> HORRIBLE!! (or, as Jim Rome would say, "The
> Horror"!) :P


Wow!

You are joking, right?

angsty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are joking, right?

Hope you mean him and not me because I am appalled at his misgynism.

I shouldn't be surprised, my parents are Mormons, so I know there are people who still believe this kind of shit. But, it is really hard to assume that someone who spouts this kind of crazy is being sincere. Yikes.

WM Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I personally would never attend a church where the main (senior) pastor is a woman, as that is against God's design. As Paul pointed out it isn't right for a woman to be teaching a man. It was Eve who was deceived in the garden of Eden, not Adam. Women are more emotional and more easily deceived, and men aren't subject to hormones ("that" time of the month).

Keep telling yourself that.

Personally, I find it a bit weird to take advice for social organization from a bronze age book of fables, updated to Iron age by Paul the Closet Case, but that's just me.

WM Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I personally would never attend a church where the
> main (senior) pastor is a woman, as that is
> against God's design. As Paul pointed out it
> isn't right for a woman to be teaching a man. It
> was Eve who was deceived in the garden of Eden,
> not Adam. Women are more emotional and more
> easily deceived, and men aren't subject to
> hormones ("that" time of the month).

and if you believe that then you have to believe Eve was deceived by a talking snake!

What goofiness.

WM, that magnanimous fellow, wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> …It
> was Eve who was deceived in the garden of Eden,
> not Adam. Women are more emotional and more
> easily deceived, and men aren't subject to
> hormones ("that" time of the month).
===========================================
That’s a big old crock of poot.
When it comes to hormones, I assure you that

Adam
Had’em!

Also, if you go by that ideation, sir, then tell me this if you would…

[that is if you are not just a drive-by T-word; if you are I will give you to the StalkerDog™ so he can eat you]

How come it’s Eve (“the woman”) in the garden who was the bad guy, hmmm???

Scripture says she gave some of the fruit to Adam, who was with her.

Didja catch that, pal? He was WITH HER!

Now if men are so very righteous and superior, so in command, why in the bloomin’ bloody hell did that joker Adam not SPEAK UP if he was so damn smart? He coulda just said, “Now, look here, Eve, this ain’t such a hot idea,” or grabbed it away and threw it, or SOMETHING! No, he didn’t. The jerk kept his mouth shut.

This tells me that men and women are pretty damn equal, if you believe this story. They both did something dumb, okay? So why is it ALL the woman’s- and every other woman’s- fault ever since?

And tell me something else while we’re about it.

Tell me how am I supposed to love and worship a deity who thinks I’m not only inferior but only worth saving if some man drags me to heaven?

Go on, tell.

I’ll wait.
.
.
.
.
.
.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2011 12:38AM by doxie.

It's made pretty clear that Eve was the one at fault for eating the fruit. She convinced Adam to eat the fruit in the same exact way Lucifer tempted her. She made it so he had no other choice.

Poor, poor, hapless Adam, led down the path of unrighteousness by his conniving mate!!!

That must be why we are placed under covenant to "hearken to the counsel of our husbands."

It's obvious we just can't be trusted if left to our own devices!

11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

(New International Version)

When was the last time you saw a woman put her fist through a wall?

WM, you are a bona fide bigot and a hater.

Thanks Serena :) I don't think I'll be back. They were all very nice, but it was incredibly old fashioned...and this coming from an ex-mo. Plus, everyone was WAY older than me (I'm 26), and there's only like 100 people total in the congregation. Not really my style. I guess I'll just keep looking.

Are you fucking kidding me? Get your sorry, knuckle-dragging ass out of the stone age.

Fucking troll - and I mean that in the nicest way possible.

Prisca, Aquila, Junia, all women, all deacons in the early church, mentioned by Paul. Men have always been taught by women, and always will be, if they're lucky.

I cannot adequately express my supreme disgust at what you wrote, but rest assured I do understand your problem: women scare you, so you have to resort to misogynistic bullshit. You have your head so far up your ass that my vitriol is completely wasted on you, shithead.

Sorry, Susan, but I had to say it.

The best use of this phrase ever. You are my hero.

serena Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are you fucking kidding me? Get your sorry,
> knuckle-dragging ass out of the stone age.
>
> Fucking troll - and I mean that in the nicest way
> possible.
>
> Prisca, Aquila, Junia, all women, all deacons in
> the early church, mentioned by Paul. Men have
> always been taught by women, and always will be,
> if they're lucky.
>
> I cannot adequately express my supreme disgust at
> what you wrote, but rest assured I do understand
> your problem: women scare you, so you have to
> resort to misogynistic bullshit. You have your
> head so far up your ass that my vitriol is
> completely wasted on you, shithead.
>
> Sorry, Susan, but I had to say it.

I was going to bring that up. Women served the church in the NT and all the misogynist crap attribued to Paul was not actually written by him. If this guy isn't a troll, he certainly what we used to call a male chauvanist pig.

serena Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Fucking troll - and I mean that in the nicest way
> possible.
>

Serena, you are correct. It's time to let wm talk to himself.

Glad2B Out

WM, I highly recommend you read "What Paul Meant" by the historian Gary Wills.

He didn't write any of the pastoral epistles if that's what they refer to.

So Paul didn't mean anything in 1st Timothy. He didn't write 1st Timothy.

Edit: obviously I haven't read the article; maybe I should.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2011 12:55AM by Freevolved.

Freevolved Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He didn't write any of the pastoral epistles if
> that's what they refer to.
>
> So Paul didn't mean anything in 1st Timothy. He
> didn't write 1st Timothy.
>
> Edit: obviously I haven't read the article; maybe
> I should.


That is kind of the point. All that was attributed to Paul including somme of the most misogynist stuff wasn't written by him.

It is a plus and negative for Christians. Why do forgeries end up in the "Word" of God? Paul may not be as much of a mysoginist (he still is though), but is the Bible twoo?

But is the article about the forgery aspect or not?

As I said, I haven't read it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2011 01:02AM by Freevolved.

There is no defense for it.
Early Christians murdered Hypatia!

BadGirl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is no defense for it.
> Early Christians murdered Hypatia!

And Romans murdered Christians so let's hate Italians. Geez! Yes, there is misogynist stuff in the Bible just like there is in the Iliad, the Odyssey, and Greek and Roman drama. That is the way it was.It was a different time. There are plenty of Christians today who do not share WM's views.In fact, I am not even convinced he isn't putting us on. As Serena pointed out, there were women deacons in the NT.

The epistles are letters writtwen by fallible people who had different opinions. Many Christians know this and have no problem with it. All Christians are not fundamantalist Biblical literalists. Just saying.

It's pretty patriarchal from start to finish -- the whole Bible. Why even bother with it at all?