Mosques Consider Sanctuary For Immigrants

https://www.npr.org/2018/03/04/590670163/mosques-consider-sanctuary-for-immigrants

Would the morg ever do this with their chapels!?? I kinda doubt their temples would be used.

Anonymous 2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would the morg ever do this with their chapels!??
> I kinda doubt their temples would be used.

Since the Mormon Church has shown extreme reluctance to allow their buildings to be used by members of the community in emergency situations (such as killer storms and floods), I doubt very much whether they would allow their premises to be used by immigrants.

Mosques and Jewish congregations, on the other hand, frequently open their premises to each other when there are emergencies of one kind or another. The fact that mosques are offering sanctuary for immigrants is not surprising...and I am grateful they are doing this.

caffiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/03/02/indonesian
> -christians-flogged-outside-mosque-for-violating-s
> haria-law.html

No, I am talking about the good ol' U. S. of A. ...

From what I know about Indonesia, and although they are actively trying to attract tourists, it is a country which is, right now in the "middle"---between secular states on one side, and states which are theocracies on the other side.

There is, evidently, much popular angst right now about the present political situation amongst Indonesians.

I've never been to Indonesia, but I have been to South Africa, and if I had to choose between the two, I would choose South Africa in a micro-instant. (Of course, I have been feeling more than a little "homesick" for South Africa lately, so that might have something to do with it. ;) )

I like Indonesian food, though...but on reflection, I'd rather eat Indonesian in L.A. than in Indonesia itself...and I also don't have any idea of what Indonesians as a nation think of Jewish Americans.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2018 01:33AM by Tevai.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5443599/White-South-African-farmers-removed-land.html

I had Indonesian tenants living below me for several years. I paid for practically no heat--they loved to keep it tropically warm! The mother did catering out of the kitchen, and sometimes sent up exotic meals, yum! She cooked in heavy corn and coconut oil; I had to scrub the entire kitchen down with concentrated TSP when they moved out and repaint. But they were great folks.

I'd stay in America, Tevai. There's a lot of violence out there we never hear about. That's why I posted that link. My pastor visited Papua New Guinea in December, and passed through three war zones in the space of about 100 miles--separate little wars we know nothing about. And there's more all over the place.

On another thread, somebody asked, "Are people basically good?" I didn't want to get mixed up in that thread, so I didn't click on it. But you can probably guess where I stand on that!

caffiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5443599/Wh
> ite-South-African-farmers-removed-land.html

Yeah...I have been watching the videos on YouTube about the land confiscation, as well as the murders of white farmers, and the various stories of those who are leaving South Africa and going to Australia, New Zealand, and the UK (evidently, the emigres are heavily choosing one of these three). Sometimes it is working out well for them (good stories about immigrating to Australia and New Zealand from South Africa), and sometimes not.


> I had Indonesian tenants living below me for
> several years. I paid for practically no
> heat--they loved to keep it tropically warm! The
> mother did catering out of the kitchen, and
> sometimes sent up exotic meals, yum! She cooked in
> heavy corn and coconut oil; I had to scrub the
> entire kitchen down with concentrated TSP when
> they moved out and repaint. But they were great
> folks.

We have (or had; I haven't been there in a long time) a really good Indonesian restaurant in Westwood (near UCLA), and when I lived on that side of the mountain I used to eat there fairly often. The food was extremely good, and it was a very "dramatic," and by nature exotic, place to take out-of-town guests to.


> I'd stay in America, Tevai. There's a lot of
> violence out there we never hear about. That's why
> I posted that link.

When I was in South Africa, I was almost murdered twice (and, each time, my life was saved by the intervention of a black South African). I "got wise" fast, and I understand what can happen.

When I almost got murdered the second time, I---driving my rented car---had blundered into a black township because it was NOT indicated on my street map of Pretoria/Tshwane...and in what I figured were the last couple of minutes of my life, I was thinking of Amy Biehl, who was an American from Santa Monica, who had been murdered under similar circumstances in 1993, and I was wondering if she, imminently about to be murdered, felt like I did right then.

I was in the middle of a traffic crush and I couldn't move my car. I was surrounded by what seemed like a couple of hundred men (but which may have been only two or three dozen) and there was no place to "go to," and I was just kind of thinking: "Ahhh...so THIS is how it ends..."

...but right outside my left window (South Africa is a drive-on-the-left country, with the driver's seat on the right of the car), I was stopped in the middle of that crush of men right by a sangoma (tribal "witch doctor") who was standing on a kind of "sidewalk," and he and I sort of looked deeply into each other's eyes---we both knew full well what the situation was---and then, after a some period of time actively looking into my eyes, he made the decision that I would live.

He kind of "twitched" (I can't explain it any better; he didn't say anything, and his facial expression didn't change, but his body kind of "twitched" in place on the "sidewalk")...and instantly, the crush of the crowd surrounding me started moving away from my car.

I "thanked" him with my eyes, and he clearly communicated "You're welcome" with HIS eyes, and then, with a kind of "Go with God" feeling to it, he "said" something like "farewell," and (the road ahead of me suddenly passable; the men who had been there had now scattered), I drove on until I found my way out of the township.

There are many times when I miss South Africa a great deal.


> My pastor visited Papua New
> Guinea in December, and passed through three war
> zones in the space of about 100 miles--separate
> little wars we know nothing about. And there's
> more all over the place.

Yeah...I've read a fair amount about Papua New Guinea, and all of its countless different cultures, and the local wars that are seemingly always going on, all over the place. (I haven't looked on YouTube for Papua New Guinea videos for a long time, but there used to be a number of videos which conveyed an incredibly accurate representation of what it is like to be there in person.

My conclusion: Compared with Papua New Guinea, South Africa seems ENORMOUSLY safe!!!

(For one thing, I don't think any "sangomas" [or the Papuan New Guinea equivalents] who might be passing by would save my life, and this is a VERY important consideration in my analysis!! :D ]


> On another thread, somebody asked, "Are people
> basically good?" I didn't want to get mixed up in
> that thread, so I didn't click on it. But you can
> probably guess where I stand on that!

This is one of the reasons why I am so interested in this particular subject---to me, it is very personal.

Why are people good?

Why are people NOT "good"?

What is the difference?

IS there a difference?

Why did that sangoma save my life...and why am I, in my heart of hearts, fairly certain that a similar thing would not be likely to happen to me in Papua New Guinea?

Why would I die in Papua New Guinea (under similar circumstances to what I experienced In South Africa) when I did NOT die in Pretoria?

I would be the same person in either situation, so the difference wouldn't be ME...it has to be something else, but what IS that "something else"?

What is the difference between the two situations??


Thank you for answering my post, caffiend. I appreciate it.

Sweet dreams.

:)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2018 02:53AM by Tevai.

Even when I disagree with you. You present your opinions thoughtfully, select your facts judiciously, and avoid a hostile attitude.

I'm very glad the sangoma was there, and looked after you. I can think of any number of possibilities for his actions. "Training" his crew of thugs to respond immediately? A passing moment of mercy? Was he aware of law enforcement nearby? Not wanting another white murder in his "jurisdiction?" Something occultic, or the hand of God?

I'm simply glad you came out of it safely, so we can continue to enjoy your insightful posts, especially on Jewish matters.

Back to Papua New Guinea: My pastor is a firearms professional, with the highest ATF licenses and clearances, including machine gun. It was very ironic that he had to buy and carry a traditional spear to signal potentially bad actors that he was willing and capable of defending himself!

Lastly: (Tip of the hat to Lot's Wife) I notice the NY Slymes is finally (!) taking note that Sweden has a big problem with immigrant violence. It took a hand grenade death, but now it is officially "real." A long time for the Hoary Bitch, er, the "old Gray Lady," to establish it as "real," but now we can all acknowledge instead of dismissing the reports as Islamophobic bigotry.

I'll address your points in turn.

Sweden: yes, I accept you have provided evidence for problems with immigration. I think you are exaggerating the role of Islam--you'll note that 24% of a studied gang were ethnic Swedes and 42% were born in Sweden. There was also discussion of another gang that was populated in part by Finns and Serbs as well as African and Arab immigrants.

Ironically, a big part of the problem is the influx of weaponry (grenades and assault rifles) from other countries. I guess the right-wing American answer would be to arm Swedish school teachers, but one can hope the Swedes adopt the Australian odel instead. But I accept your point that immigration is presenting problems.

I was tempted to reply to your post on Indonesia, a country I know pretty well, last night. There are problems with your post--Papua New Guinea is not Indonesia; PNG is not even Irian Jaya, which is significantly more stable and peaceful. Moreover Aceh is a frontier region over which Jakarta has little influence. That is more Mindanao than Palawan.

But in my experience Indonesia is not a very nice country (other than resort regions like Bali). There is racial tension just below the surface in many parts of Indonesia, the rich Overseas Chinese all have multiple citizenships in case of need, the police are venal and vicious--as I have personally witnessed in extended form--and the country is moving gradually towards a less tolerant form of Islam. I'd say that Indonesian Islam is on its way towards the position of Egypt, which is a country I find disturbing in its religion and its anti-Western sentiment.

This is far from an indictment of moderate Islam or moderate Islamic countries--of which there are many--but as an empiricist who dislikes stereotypes, I agree that Indonesia is not Islam's finest hour, if you will. And I will take on board your information on Sweden.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Sweden: yes, I accept you have provided evidence
> for problems with immigration. I think you are
> exaggerating the role of Islam--you'll note that
> 24% of a studied gang were ethnic Swedes and 42%
> were born in Sweden. There was also discussion of
> another gang that was populated in part by Finns
> and Serbs as well as African and Arab immigrants.

Immigrants, now a small percentage of the Swedish population, are over-represented with the number and ferocity of crimes. I note the distinction of "24% ethnic Swedes" and 42% BORN in Sweden, of immigrant groups that have failed to assimilate? The NY Slymes has not yet acknowledged the reality of no-go zones. The French have, finally. I cringe to think how bad it must get before the "powers that be" face facts.
>
>
> Ironically, a big part of the problem is the
> influx of weaponry (grenades and assault rifles)
> from other countries. I guess the right-wing
> American answer would be to arm Swedish school
> teachers, but one can hope the Swedes adopt the
> Australian odel instead. But I accept your point
> that immigration is presenting problems.

This subject was exhausted on other threads. It's not just that violent groups are bringing in powerful weaponry. They are bringing in a willingness to use them. Would this cease (importation and use) if firearms were banned? The Wa(com)Post recently ran an article, "Profile of a School Shooter," a guy who didn't make the headlines because he only killed one when his gun jammed. Part of his selection process: he chose a gun-free school district.

>
> I was tempted to reply to your post on Indonesia,
> a country I know pretty well, last night. There
> are problems with your post--Papua New Guinea is
> not Indonesia; PNG is not even Irian Jaya, which
> is significantly more stable and peaceful.
> Moreover Aceh is a frontier region over which
> Jakarta has little influence. That is more
> Mindanao than Palawan

I did not intend to conflate PNG with Indonesia. Heck, I remember when it was called "Borneo!"
>
> I'd say that Indonesian
> Islam is on its way towards the position of Egypt,
> which is a country I find disturbing in its
> religion and its anti-Western sentiment.

I have to defer to your great familiarity with "the Dutch East Indies," as I remember from childhood maps. Egypt is not moving towards a stable democracy, and I doubt we'll see that in the foreseeable future. But Egypt is moving in concert with Saudi Arabia and others, beginning to suppress radical Islam, notably the Muslim Brotherhood, Hezbollah, and Wahhabi clerics. (Emphasis on "beginning." We shall see.)
>
> This is far from an indictment of moderate Islam
> or moderate Islamic countries--of which there are
> many--

Hopefully, such moderates will be granted legitimate voice and, more importantly, influential positions in Islamic academic and ecclesiastical leadership.

Egypt and Syria have long been, or attempted to be, secular states. Iraq too, back in the day. The Egyptian and Syrian effort to suppress Islamic fundamentalism is as sincere as it is dangerous. As we saw in the Arab Spring, oppressed movements have a way of jumping up and biting governments in the behind. Meanwhile the Saudis continue to oppose extremism domestically even as they encourage it abroad; they are a major reason behind the rise of extremism in Pakistan and Afghanistan over the last 70 years and more recently even in Southeast Asia.

Hezbollah is different because it is an extension of Iranian power. No one is suppressing them right now. To the contrary, the US defeat in Iraq and the Trump administration's decision to let Aleppo be destroyed last year opened the way for Iran to gain a dominant position in Syria, which facilitates more cooperation with Hezbollah. That is one reason that Iran and Israel are shooting each other's aircraft down even as Iran and Saudi Arabia fight vicariously in Yemen.

Ironically, the great majority of the Iranian people represent a powerful moderate Islamic force. The most popular foreign country in Iran in recent years, though not necessarily now, was the US. The problem there is the government, not the people--as is evident in the recent protests--which is tragic. I'm sure Tevai, with her knowledge of Iranians in southern CA, can attest to the worldliness and tolerance of their brand of Islam.

But the fundamentalists who rule Iran are a major problem, as are the Saudis. With friends like them. . .

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Ironically, the great majority of the Iranian
> people represent a powerful moderate Islamic
> force. ... I'm sure Tevai, with
> her knowledge of Iranians in southern CA, can
> attest to the worldliness and tolerance of their
> brand of Islam.

The Iranians and Iranian-Americans I know (most of whom are Muslim, but there are also Iranian Jews and Iranian Christians) are not only moderate, but are mostly indistinguishable from Americans (such as Hispanics) of similar coloring.

There are personal names which are recognizable as typically Iranian if you learn them (Maryam and Hamid as two easy examples), but if you didn't know the cultural "tells," you usually wouldn't know, if you met them or knew them casually, that they were either of Iranian descent, OR that they are Muslim (assuming that they indeed are Muslim, of course ;) ).

Just like a century or two ago in the United States, when we as a nation were absorbing Irish immigrants and Eastern European Jews, Iranian-Americans today are very swiftly entering the mainstream of American life (in my opinion: more easily, and at a quicker pace, than was true in the 1800s-early 1900s).


> But the fundamentalists who rule Iran are a major
> problem, as are the Saudis.

I agree with this...but the bright side is: there seems to be some strong progressive movement going on in both countries. Not wearing a head covering in Iran may not seem like so much by American standards, but it is a significant step forward in Iran.

Likewise, Saudi Arabia is now allowing women to drive...AND to join the Saudi military forces!!! (Yes, there are still some
restrictions which apply to women only, but nevertheless---did anyone ever DREAM that they would live to see Saudi women in the Saudi military?? I sure didn't!)

Really good post, Lot's Wife!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2018 09:34PM by Tevai.

According to Newsweek (reported here in American Thinker) one white is being killed in South Africa every five days.

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2018/03/south_african_radical_white_farmers_should_leave_the_keys_when_they_go.html

caffiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> According to Newsweek (reported here in American
> Thinker) one white is being killed in South Africa
> every five days.
>
> https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2018/03/south
> _african_radical_white_farmers_should_leave_the_ke
> ys_when_they_go.html

Yes...the murders of the white South African farmers are horrific (and the details of some of those murders even more so).

No one is defending ANY of the murders of white South African farmers (and I do agree with most South Africans, of all races, that the specter of repeating what happened in Zimbabwe/formerly Rhodesia is something which MUST be avoided, regardless of what that may take).

At the same time, however, there is a growing repatriation to South Africa of (largely white, but also significantly black) South Africans who have, mostly since the death of Mandela, emigrated to other countries (the UK, Australia, and New Zealand probably at the top of this particular list, though the countries emigrated to encompass a good share of the planet, including Europe). If you go to YouTube and search for "Homecoming Revolution, South Africa," there are a number of videos which explain what is going on right now (and has been for about ten years, as I recall), DESPITE the farm murders occurring in South Africa, which everyone is fully aware of.

A Canadian journalist named Lauren Southern, who identifies as a libertarian, went to South Africa to report on the farm murders (her main subject), but she also concentrated most of her other videos on more general crime issues in South Africa by emphasizing the dramatically awful and minimizing (or ignoring) everything which is NOT dramatically awful. She did create a number of videos [which you can see by going to YouTube and searching for "Lauren Southern, South Africa"], and she will explain everything criminally-related in South Africa in a most effective and dramatic manner. (She is a good journalist in getting across her various points.)

She has also been banned by the European Parliament, and has been denied entry to the UK (the subject of other videos on YouTube which you can search for and learn all about if you are so inclined).

The farm murders are ghastly, but at the same time, there are a whole lot (and a constantly growing) number of former South Africans who, having tasted the undisputed safety benefits of living abroad, just want to "go home" now...and they are willing to go home, and to tackle, the overall South African farm land problem in whatever ways will strengthen the country and create the nation that (regardless of race) South Africans in general, and former South Africans, both want and that they know can happen.

P.S. "One white every five days" would be considered a low murder rate here in the US. This does NOT, in ANY way, excuse the farm murders, but it IS a fact.

It is difficult to parse out the racial statistics of homicides in the USA, but basically (based on somewhat different years):

Total homicides in USA per year: 17,793
( https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm )

Number of white homicide victims per year: 5,854
( https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/race-and-homicide-in-america-by-the-numbers )

If you can find better statistics, please do!!!

As I read these figures, white homicide victims in the United States are about sixteen per day, every day throughout the year.

Which means: despite the horrific South African farm murders, we Americans are not exactly in a strong position to be metaphorically casting stones at South Africa on this issue.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2018 03:59AM by Tevai.

But one can put the US aside as a bizarre exception in terms of violence and murder. Then we are left with South Africa, which is by normal standards a really bloody place.

I don't know a lot about the place but find Caffiend's description consonant with what I have read elsewhere. And the Zimbabwean precedent is deeply unsettling.

If anybody is feeling ambitious, we would need homicides per capita for the USofA, and the UofSA, first by gross population, then by race. A breakdown by rural, suburban, or urban counties or districts would also provide insight.

caffiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If anybody is feeling ambitious, we would need
> homicides per capita for the USofA, and the UofSA,
> first by gross population, then by race. A
> breakdown by rural, suburban, or urban counties or
> districts would also provide insight.

How's this for a cheat sheet? ;)

There are a number of "most dangerous" and "most peaceful" country lists from a number of sources.
According to:

"Most Dangerous Countries in the World 2017 - Ranked" [which includes 163 "independent states"]:

156) Canada [means: 8th SAFEST country in the world]
50) USA [means: 114th SAFEST country in the world]
41) South Africa [means: 123rd SAFEST country in the world]

https://www.atlasandboots.com/most-dangerous-countries-in-the-world-ranked/

On this list, the United States (in a field of 163 countries) ranks only nine countries ahead of South Africa--which I think qualifies as a loose kind of mathematical "tie."



From another source: ( http://www.theweek.co.uk/64495/the-safest-and-most-dangerous-countries-in-the-world )

The United States of America is ranked 114 (out of 161 countries) as "most peaceful."

Canada is ranked as one of the top 10 "most peaceful" countries in the world. [Yay for our Northern Cousins!!!]


And (flipping the focus to "dangerous" countries)... the "top ten most dangerous countries according to the 2017 Global Peace Index" are:

Syria
Afghanistan
Iraq
South Sudan
Yemen
Somalia
Libya
Sudan
Central African Republic
Ukraine


The "top ten safest countries according to the 2017 Global Peace Index" are:

Iceland
New Zealand
Portugal
Austria
Denmark
Czech Republic
Slovenia
Canada
Switzerland
Ireland



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2018 01:52AM by Tevai.

Topping for caffiend.

Sorry but illegal immigrants should be deported, we don't want or need law breakers.

People who would harbor illegals under the guise of religion , or for any other reasons,are in violation of U.S. laws and should be fined severely.

Does that include people who hire illegals like our president?

Where’s Singapore?

Hockeyrat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Where’s Singapore?

Singapore is the 143rd most dangerous [means: the 21st SAFEST] country in the world.